2022. ah ah ah. hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered on peter lavelle as a sign the west ukraine proxy war on russia is not going as planned. a new narrative is making the rounds. it's called the korea solution. the end of active hostilities and an armistice. keep in mind the side considering an armistice seeks to avoid complete defeat. we all know which side that is cross sucking ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, ray mcgovern in raleigh. he is

a former cia analyst in tampa. we have larry johnson, he's a managing partner for burg associates and a former cia analyst, and us state department counterterrorism official and in brussels. we have gilbert doctoral. he's an independent political analyst and author of memoirs of an ex pat manager. moscow during the 1990s aren't gentlemen cross stock rolls. in fact, that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, i want to ask all 3 of you before we go into the, the ma main part of the program. your reaction to seymour hersh, his article on the united states planning, executing and destroying the north stream pipelines. re you 1st in raleigh. i'm shocked. i'm shocked to go ahead. john brennan said it was the russians. we but he said it was the russians. it will kind of hard, it was a stretch to think they would blow up their own pipeline, but i thought it was the russian. now turns about i'm just, i'm just shock peter. i can't sit anymore now. okay, i had very what can you add to what ray has already said could maybe there isn't

much more to add go ahead larry. i train ones to the very top secret. see i site in the united states and believe it or not, they actually had a gift shop and they sold vitamins in there that carried the slogan to admit nothing. deny everything, make counter accusations. and that's exactly what the, the by the administration is doing with sy hersh his revelations. they're admitting nothing they're denying it. and then the q cy, of being an adult, the old man who gets everything wrong, ignoring the fact that the man is, he's a ledger in the, on the lives going back to me, lie ob, grabbed to the revelations about ca, spine on americans and assassination plots the go mar, explore it just goes on and on. so i always gets his figures. right. and i actually

sent him yesterday further confirmation. turns out that, that dive center down there in panama city is also the headquarters for a certain 3 letter outfit that ran. i used to work for that there maritime branches base there. so the story is true and it is an act of war by the united states and europe as i understand it is completely shut down the story, but no, no, well, that's where i wanted to go gilbert, you know, it's, you know, the europeans are mom on it ok, they've got a got a blip. ok. you, you know, hershey stuff is, you know, he's a legend. what he has to say people pay attention to with good reason, but it's already fading away very, very quickly. go over your thoughts. go ahead. well i read versus article i was your best journalist. busy and remarkable retail. and my question myself was, how did you get this? where come there's no traces for reasons. however,

i can say this morning i received from someone who is the volunteer translator, my 6 my. my wife takes into german, has his own network in his home countries for one of his friends, a friend who told him that he was thinking of making a report. similar to what she has done last course, there were, this is really substantial elements there. and you're going to do this based on conversation yes. where the german who took part in the same side of the summer and you over listen to one or 2 of the divers explained what he refrained from making this problem because he had no basis. and he didn't want to disclose the source for obvious reasons for harmony could come to his friends.

however, the overall story. bully corroborates one person. so i'm satisfied, i'm source, i'm, i'm, i'm satisfied to, and anyone that has any curiosity should be satisfied as well. but of course, they will be complete denial and no investigation of this. that's what we expect are now to the main course. here. re i seen through some of the mainstream media. so a little bit, some independent stuff, you know, they, they're, the solution is korea. we need an arm and says, we need to freeze the, the battlefield here, considering to find out that the americans were lying about blowing up the pipeline here. why would the russians even consider and any kind of negotiate negotiable, that would include a sci fi or an armistice? your thoughts go ahead? well, they won't, they won't consider that for the nonce. but let me just add a footnote to the seymour hersh story. the real story now will be where this really

can be kept secret in european circles, and particularly in german circles. germany is the k. there stood all our choice. well, president biden threatened to destroy the pipeline and he did like, you know, like bird rabbit. he didn't say nothing, right. so this is a battered wife syndrome. now. yeah. and there are, there are no germans. i think that i have have enough information and discernment to say, well, wait a 2nd. now our industries are fall apart. we get real call here at our apartments. if this is true, how are we to look at the u. s. so i'm saying simply that germany will be to k. it will be really interesting or they can act any more courageously the ok but, but you know, right. you know, right. we've always have to deal with. the germans are too strong and too

threatening, or they're too feeble. and they're not eve. and now we have a new category, they're just plain stupid. ok if they just continue to go along with this. sorry to be so blunt here. larry, i want i want to talk, i want to talk about this korean thing. ok. you, what do you think the chances of that happening? because, you know, his history serves me well. i mean, the side that is losing once an army is not the winning side, but go ahead, larry know whether it's the side of the desperation. they're starting to take hold and washington, cuz they realize that they've they, they've made a bet that they can't deliver on the, i'm sure, the barnes, the director, didn't propose that. and i think that probably put in a lot of for all had to look at each other and go, is this guy on drugs, you know, you can't be serious of russia has finally, i think, awakened to the fact that they can no longer trust anything that washington or the rest of europe says any deals in the proposals and negotiations are,

are not to be trusted. they can't be relied upon at all. so i think russia wisely will reject it, refuse to accept that will press on with this military campaign and all which is ultimately going to lead to the defeat of nato. that's well, that's what's at stake here. gilbert way in on that. you heard that with larry just said there, i mean, consider we had merkel alon now we have this article by seymour hersh. you know, i mean, this is, these people are maniacal, i mean, why would anyone entertain any kind of fire or negotiations at this point? i mean, you, the only way you can get your way is creating political facts on the ground with european said that good last year. yeah, this is going to happen on the battlefield. well, yeah, it's going to happen on the battlefield. gilbert, go ahead introduce thing. i'm doing

on my own. i'm taking it up from some programs very respectable to progress on washington in which people who are experts and was sincere pages. our technology finding his position were right now and raised the question. who knows exactly how this new world war, and you can see it with absolute certainty, any outcomes under the circumstances. i don't see any such a and then again the coming pairs. i don't believe it was i asked fix it or is on the list. i'd like to like something this your goals proxy, where it is not proxy war between the hours that we have proxy, we're getting the korean war. we have the approximate work in

syria. however, there is a significant difference in what we now see in the russian frame. and that is, this is a war on russia's territory exactly where by the russian legislation. therefore, it is unlike any, proceeded for russia, it is an ex essential fight, whereas a previous proxy, worse, we're not. okay, well, re weigh in on that there because the, the way things stand right now. if there was, let's just entertainment that there was an armistice here. that means the data would turn the run state of ukraine into some kind of fortress to continue the complex. i mean, no one in their right mind because i would agree to that because nothing is settled, nothing will be settled. if there is a cease fire, go ahead re. i love the rough us 1st and foreign minister of rough shed before 5 months ago. that geography has changed,

the russian calculus tripe with my bars and other rather long range missiles. are they the intention to pacify, occupy, and incorporate bun, boss has now widened? now they have to go farther, and now go, father and father. i think that pu chain would kurdish to prefer the stopper that nipper and deal, i will say, and they'll be, have to be somebody to deal with and somebody that realised that coaching he go all away is the time to make the deal. it will be 2 months from now in my view, but will be real at o, be up to the, the benighted souls in washington, jake sullivan and blake, and then the others who will have to realize that they're smoking their own hashish, for god's sake, they actually believe they can win when they can. and secretary austin is just doing what he always did. he what he did when he was chief of said come haste,

falsifying the intelligence. it's blatant and it's stupid, but all is fair and love and war. how well and in and out why, why should the trajectory of american foreign policy change all of a sudden ok, a road record of, of catastrophe. gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine steak without it ah ah and blue and never got the trigger. the general cape club. that means national government can pump into the economy as much as a nickel and think about it, cause that and yeah,

and i'm a fanatical 22 lead holding them up. and yet we didn't come back and i'm not there yet. it to us on to that, along with my son, he died in the mean, and i may city sick at a sick on me you're this is denise and he started on monday. the financial due to the, this is a, for me, i need to turn this, this and he, sadly, i mean to the presets on fall, go out shameful. their problem on us a router. they should be a little in a good, very loud to stop all of the law up without not bringing about. he says soon it'll be nice to resume this will be to hold on. i like you're probably my chima a more stable received by not because i know with dawn last last you know, even thing time. i'm rick sanchez and i'm here to play with you. whatever you do, you do not watch my new shelf seriously. why watch something that's so different,

my little opinions that you won't get anywhere else work of it please, or do you have the state department, the c, i a weapons makers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your facts for you. go ahead. i change and whatever you do, don't watch my show stay mainstream because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called direct impact, but again, you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change. and dwayne think ah

ah, welcome back to cross sack where all things are considered. i'm peter labelle tremendous . we're discussing ukraine. okay, it's go back to larry in tampa. you know, one of the larry, the, one of the problems i have in looking at reporting on the conflict a whole, the whole spectrum of opinions and all that. one of the things it's us, missed all the time. is that why this happened in the 1st place and rushes security demand? see, we could talk about a ceasefire. good arm, it says we can talk about geography and we can talk about all these kinds of things . but at the end of the day, russia got into is because it's because of its security demands, and it will only stop when it has met those demands. it's, it's pretty simple here. yes, by guilt made an important point with respect to the proxy wars. but what makes

this one so different is the outer complete demon, the zation of all things russian. you know, in the past, during the cold war. now, during the cuban missile crisis during vietnam, the united states could still find a way to talk to yury and drop off or to land the garage in it. and there was still, there is no complete rupture of dialogue between the 2 countries are still recognition. we needed to talk, ah, that is gone at the, the, the, the presentation of russia as this, the demonic authoritarian dictator designed to take over the world. it's psychological projection on the part of the united states. because if you look at the history of the last 70 years, the only country that has been consistently involved with expeditionary military

adventures overseas and killing foreigners is the united states is not russia is not china. and so that's what makes this difference. and this is, this is a, the ultimate existential threat for russia because of the west has its way. it's going to. busy carve up russia and at least 5 pieces and rape its resources. yep. and gilbert, one of them greatest mismatches. and all of this here is that is i've stressed earlier that rushes ultimate goal is to secure it security. but the west, it's messianic. it's ideological. okay. i, i'm glad larry brought this up. i mean, it's a huge, broad brush at russian's russian culture. russian history, the works everything it but it must be annihilated. ok. and that's the mismatch because the russians are saying it was something completely different. we have security demands. you ignored them, this is what have we warned you over and over again. now this is what's happened

and we're not going to stop in to we meet our goals, but the west doesn't think in those terms. there's thinking in terms of ideology, go ahead. gilbert. well, the, the russian issue here where there's this camping had a 2nd dimension to fully secure the assumption is a national swish. and that is the russian identity of the non boss in the population . there were 2 ends in this korean style cease fire. what do you have to say on the side is that they achieve one of their 2 goals . they saved on bus. they captured 20 or 25 percent of what was formerly the ukraine and the most. busy economically valuable part of the ukraine. they same space all their co nationals in a way that $990.00 cuz they were unable to save their co nationals in the baltic

space simply for low military and economic string. they have that, so then they will have it any case they will have achieved one of the 2 goals. the greater goal is your identified. it is a purely pure security. and that is in terms of halting nato, turning nature back and rendering the job. but gilbert, let me go to re right now, stopping nato halting nato for now. so that's, that's not going to compute. that's not the result. the russians will accept because we all know that if the ratio lensky gang stays in power, it will be continued to be supported by the west and the continued nato infiltration of their farms of forces. here, i don't see that's a tenable outcome. re, peter, i think i need to inject the most important tectonic shift that has occurred over

the past year. and that is that china is in full support of russia here. that when poor june was ash on october 27th, that battle died. why do you think the americans are taking on china to you said, you know, i thought there was some subtle reason behind us, but know, i'm convinced that they're crazy. his word, he says this is an option of arrogance and feeling of impunity here. but that, but re, that's because of the i agree with you, but it's because it's idea logical for them. ok. i mean that goes into a different realm of, of logic. ok. i mean this is, this is a messy on the adventure on their part. keep going re, well, i don't like the word illogical. it's straight power. it's, it's, it's a leach thinking that the us is still exceptional. we haven't learned that lesson

yet. what my point is simply the reason puccini can be so secure, and so confident and moving west as he is about to do is because he's got china at his back. he solidified that exactly a year ago. people don't get it. least of all, the people running our foreign policy. larry way, when rachel said there, because the there is a huge shift going on. right now. we could talk about di, dollarization. supply chains are changing. the relationship that india has with russia is, is getting better and better. i mean, this is the, the west is closing itself off from the world. ok, and it's last, the last straw. it's military. i mean, if the u. s. was what it allows the dollar to be. so compromise, i mean, that's the death of a superpower. larry the washington in particular. but there as well as the rest of europe, painted themselves into a corner and then tied

a plastic bag over their head. and believe that somehow that this is going to result in victory what, what, what the war in ukraine has exposed. and i think frankly, it has surprised russia that never anticipated that the west was so hollowed out in terms of its ability to replace replenish, military stores. particularly artillery shells and other weapons of a bit there. i think there was an underlying assumption that the west actually had a pretty robust industrial base. yeah. and what's been exposed is that's gone. that is, that's history. this is, this is not world war 2, where the united states factories roared into production. they are struggling to produce it in one year. what, you know, ukraine is shooting and one week in terms of artillery shells. so there's been a terrible miscalculation. and yet, despite that,

nobody is coming to grips with the reality that from a military standpoint, the only thing the united states has left in its quiver are nuclear weapons. and even then the prospect of using those nuclear weapons successfully is, is, is problematic. so it is the united states is getting got to come to grips with the fact that it is not the power that it once was. yeah. big. they just go ahead blame the industrial question of the industrial capacity. is really a function. it's thinking of, it's no sorry whether it's much worse they would enter and the war is now growing up in ukraine has been the course of that war and been decided by the russians not by the nurse. made it not. and it's precisely the back area where the western industrial capacity is woefully behind because that was not the kind of war,

but they have been fighting with that shows really. and as a 2nd question, the russians have this has a little bearing on potential threats, risks. when one considers where we go, if we, if there's an escalation line, the us, nato versus russia. the assumption in our newspapers is that the russians will go. and that is because the whole west underestimate what has done in the last decade to build a very powerful conventional exactly system that is extremely important. also, in the case of the hyper sonic mrs. all the we hear about the think any the existing aircraft systems. there's another dimension to that,

which is more important as we go forward and consider the russian. can the rush boss about response to an attack on premier name, meaning that they would tell us faces in europe and how the assumption years nuclear draw the dentistry. ringback the tire of one of their hypersonic missiles on a silo underground. silos, soaring munitions in your brain that the, the, the fire cow, the devastation power of one of these i, per sonic missiles, is vast with warhead, because of the laws of physics. now saying i were a rapidly run out of time. now you one right ray, you were nodding your head. what would you want to jump in there? go ahead. i just wanted to support what gill is saying. i grew agree completely with him. that's the dangerous thing. nuclear aspect, as for the conventional nato generals don't usually agree with gilbert

caroll. but just this past week, the top general said, you know, we, we missed, we said explicitly, we may say i misunderstood estimated who we've got this wrong. it's scale, scale scale, and we got it. and the russians do hello, that's what's going on when in ukraine. and the only question is when the us and nato's back is up, because the wall lot will bitin being comp good. i agree very, we gotta wait. we got 30 seconds larry is caught read or like to say do the military math. 30 seconds, my friend. go ahead. yeah, the, the united states is exhausted militarily. right now. it doesn't have any good options. and the russian offensive, i believe, is actually already begun. this is not going to come. it's under why it will expand from what it was of we're looking at the defeat of nato, and that's some to be,

you know, the west has not come to grips yet. okay, well that's a really good way to end the program. thank you. my friend, that's all the time we have. i want to thank my gets in brussels, tampa, and in raleigh. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our t. c. a next time, remember for ah, articles western i'm a bit, i don't, i mean our hatamio was how your ship was through the mid august a hair dresser, a bus driver, a sales person. anyone could become a victim. that sail private negotiators 1st appeared

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