the me i welcome to was a part of the year of 2022. the apple cart is international politics in more ways than one. but the launch of the russian military operation in your credit has definitely said divided the historical timeline into before and after. not only for those with the direct stake in the counseling, but also for those watching from the sidelines. what really take to ride the car then give the sides moving towards piece. well, to discuss that i'm now joined from toronto by me, the deep dust from the senior researcher at york university and author of several books on relation between india and the countries of the former soviet union. doctor. it's a great on a great pleasure for me to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you. thank you. and i thank you for the invitation and giving the be the

opportunity to speak with the audience through your media. and i have been following trade and r t. so i'm really happy to be a part of this show. that's amazing because i found your personal and academic background extremely interesting. and i think it provides a unique vantage point on to this conundrum. because you spend years growing up and studying in both russia and ukraine, then you went on to further york a damn a career in the west while also keeping in touch with your country of origin in to reach as long strive for a balance position. so i think you have this unique combination of both proximity and distance to everybody involved in this war. and i'm wondering what do you find yourself and all of this, not only as an academic, but also as a human being. i haven't spent a lot of my time in russia as well as in green during my early i got the kids i

was in russia and then i also started in the ukraine in the, in the international relation institute as my specialization is international relations. again, to weekly, i've been involved with this region for now many decades and i have been working and my research is focusing mainly on the street region. so i have some sort of understanding and clarity of the present situation and why it is today like this and why it appears, whatever it is today. because this is, as we all know, this is not a one day or 2 day conflict. this has been going on for many years and as i mentioned that i have lived there, i know this, the 2 countries people are very much of connected with each other, their culture to see they're very similar to each other. and do you have a, as well as the it within their family,

either father or mother or grandfather and grandmother somebody is of belongs to either from russia or from you, but it doesn't get accounted can. i say you're here for a 2nd because this is a very important point for both you and many other experts described russia, ukraine as not the same, but similar, you know, there are certain sort of cultural and ethnic substance that we have in common. and yet when we talk to the ukrainians, especially the, you know, political leadership of your cream, they presented as if there could be no more different countries and no more different people down the russians and the ukrainians. and in fact, part of that political paradigm is to present ukraine as the very antidote of russia. and if that was only political thing, ok, that's their choice. but they, as you know, i'm sure, very well, even before the outbreak of this culture, there was a wide spread discrimination or suppression of russian language of russian culture

of russian way of being. even though i think deep down, it's not that much different from the ukrainian. how do you explain all that? resentment is, is it just like the natural pains of separation, or do you think that's, that's deliberate. you know, in the you clean, the hype does some sort of a feeling that they did not get there right shed during the soviet dimes and their language. their literature did not get that much opportunity as a, as the russian language. so that was one of the reasons another reason they were very keen to be part of the you would lead to community and then felt that they are more of a european then or towards the russia. so that is another reason. so we have seen this ethnic problems, and the problem so specifically seems to by those people who are living in the eastern part of russia who are mainly russian speaking and russian origin. people

as well. we have seen in some parts of central and southern part about best buy was a little different. and this green eyes ation and the language a popularity popularizing the language that we can very, very common and very, very, very prominent. then all the publications, the newspaper started coming out in a new plane in that language. the schools who was media was actually only a russian language. this stop that and they started teaching only in the ukranian language. and also anonymous monday was coming to engage people to write and come out with more euclidean propaganda and ukrainian nation. and i must tell you that external powers also had a lot of hand in igniting this kind of feelings. because this

clearly divided the internal domestic population and we know that there were a lot of for foreign engineers at that time where in the initial years, well, a based in eve and other parts of you played. and they were funding to encourage this kind of attitudes and movement, which was definitely painful to see. but yes, that back kind of equalization started from the beginning and they wanted to very deliberately with door. they knew that russia is very important for them. but still they did this kind of and they followed this move you mentioned is a perception that the ukranian language or ukraine as a republic didn't get enough attention or enough respect from the somebody that warranties and as somebody who actually died in soviet national policies,

national and they asked me both if i can attest to the fact that if i'm not mistaken, but i think i'm pretty close to the truth. ukraine was the largest recipient of all of your funding and absolute terms and the same goals for you know, the support and the language to support them. the culture infrastructure. what have you in georgia, by the way, i think was the largest recipient in per capita terms and give those to republics have developed this very strong resentment. despite we being much more than ethnic russians or many other people that made up the former soviet union. it's fascinating to me, but one question i wanted to ask you is, why do you think the georgia war of 2008 was so much different from the ukrainian calls like that is still ongoing. because back then, many of the sort of dynamics preceding the war were similar, western funding, you know, national grievances, etc. but russia didn't go all the way to,

to occupy any of the territories of georgia and it stopped short, all absorbing, breakaway republics into itself. why do you think the russian rationale has changed this time around? well, when you are comparing the euclidean war with georgia, that is a, that debate has been going on since the euclid ocean war started. so then i lot of similarities that we can see like in, in the ukraine on so does that evolution feeling start there for the orange evolution funded by western nations in georgia? also, we have seen the rules of illusion, which was heavily funded by the western nations. they also had on western of affiliated leaders and also because it really was the same way in georgia. so there are a lot of similarities in the also georgia also wanted to be part of the data. and you can also a want to be part of europe in your crime literature. political leadership wants to

be part of maybe it's not so clear whether it's the case when you look at the pause . yes, yes. well, i was writing this book and sitting in your grade, and during that time i interviewed 2 different age group people. i've had people in millennial, so then people in the middle it as well as older people. so i found the younger generation david, very, very much enthusiastic to get affiliated with the european union because they get a thought that that will open the gateway and they will become more western and they can gets a lot of facilities, whether the middle aged people, they understood that dan affiliation with russia, they're lincoln with russia is very important to sustain the stability in the country and maintain, and whatever the relationship they have. and the older people were very much in favorable to maintain the relation with russia. but what is the difference here when i, 1st and foremost, i would like to mention that is that

a war which started in around 2008, that time it was totally different to russia. today's russian leader has got a much more understanding about how to tackle this, this type of issues. and they understand that what is the, what is the best option here. and, and that was definitely a problem getting from, with the site and backbone to dive in georgia and i see a war was going on that day actually was also facing the problem with its own people like and say, there was just to the gardening, also the neighboring south caucasians like as of general mania, was having problems then south asia, a was trying to merge with federation. and they were having the fear also spill back to the notice asia. so those kind of things when also are there. and so that is why a doctor war lasted for a very long period. and at the same time, i would also say that this one is more of a information war. like here we see

a lot of this information or social media, a lot of in done it is giving and spending all the information to which is also confusing much more up to the general population, creating more complex situation. and here also another problem i would like to mention that international community is much more involved in a different way, which was not there at the time of the georgia war. now doctrine, if i can seize upon your statement that the russia between 20082022 has changed dramatically, including the thinking of the russian leadership. and i think one of the most popular explanations in the west war, this turn around in the russian position is put into personal grandeur that he became older, is that he became perhaps more delusional. started imagining himself as this new

russian ampere said on conquering, if not the world done, at least that you know, the space of the former soviet union. do you by that explanation? well, definitely not to, i mean, it is a russian leader is totally differently than what it was earlier and left has got some kind of a love, i mean, for forming their own perception that evolve. and he'll like it. they are putting a president zalinski as a hero and bringing him in every every year for life. but they are giving him the opportunity to share his views, not only in forums and summits, but also in the universities to the younger people are making a president or put in as a villain. but that is definitely not the case. and we know that he understand what is good for their nation,

which is good for its people. and if you'll see russian military doctrine, of course, you know very well that in the, by russian military doctrine. the her mention that if there is any kind of a threat to the russian speaking population or russian citizens living in the former soviet states then last year can go to the extent of using force to predict their nationals. and they have been doing this similar to what it was mentioned in their agreement. and you know, that means few admin score one and 2. they were there, these agreements, but also not valid. so just of having a blame game or just a demonizing, somebody does not really a song, but they show which is actually a different. and this kind of provocation will definitely not make much sense of it . or what makes sense right now is taking a very short break, but maybe we'll be back to this fascinating discussion in just a few moments mentioned. ah

ah ah ah, a russian state full narrative type as on the most 19

with 55 with anyone else with will ban in the european union. the kremlin. yup. machine. the state on to russia for date and split our t spoke neck. even our video agency, roughly all band on youtube with mm ah ah,

welcome back to well department. if you end up going to senior researcher at york university and author of several books on relations within indiana countries of the former soviet union. dr. ethan before the break, we were talking about the sex personalization or sort of money key. i'm thinking of dividing the world into the forces of good and the forces of evil and 11 other feature of western analysis that is so very surprising and striking to me is that a pretension that structural reasons don't exist. i mean, when you listen to western policymakers, they go to extreme lengths to, with everything on the russia pretending as if native, for example, and russia, security concerns over nature don't exist. they also, for some reason for many years turn blind eyes not only to ethnic discrimination, but they only support a non just national is but only

a fallback. 4th is in not only in the grain but also in many other countries of the former soviet union. for example, the baltic states wouldn't be an exaggeration on my part to suggest that when it comes to russia, everything goes that the one that was doesn't feel bound by its own supposed it norms. well, you are very correct in saying so because so list feels that whatever they are doing and whatever they want to do that has been going on for quite some time. so that has become kind of a practice. and i know that to what they do that is correct. and what are those are thinking and doing at this point that that thing is definitely not correct. so you have probably noticed that this is a very much of this shorter that how india deferred from the west in taking a number of decisions related to ukraine. russia relations because

a media western propaganda as was such that one of the ways to thinking that is, that is correct and that should be agreed of. it is definitely not. today's world is changed. today's a globalized world. people has got a different thought process and a years ago when they talked about the human rights violation. so are they looking into the human rights violation in their own nations? and what are they doing for that? are they really actively was working for that and protecting the people? no, we don't see that on with so when did that, he says others and when the dog about to other nations and other people because what my understanding is, every country understands the national interest in their thinking, their national interests and their concern about their security issues. that you saw that how are the balloon issue that the one that was concerned about the

security concern and that's why it was a shot back so. so definitely, every country is concerned about then when it is a really for me, is to be here for to, for just for a 2nd to further discussion. i think my perception of covering geopolitics for many years is that it's not only that need to understand our own a national interest, but they usually understand the national interest of their partners on that, poland. and they try generally try to find some midway. that is considered to be the basis of balance, the basis of peace. why do you think the west has very little respect for this structure of international politics that it's not only them who have interest, you know, other countries in the world, by nature, by their very nature have something some security concerns, some national imperative that they have to protect regardless of whether they're west, approve of it or not. no,

absolutely. you're absolutely correct because that is what has been happening and probably they had the idea that it will go on like that. but when it deferred, then they have a problem and then they try to push a different way. at this point of time, i would definitely say that the old international community, global global community should come together instead of sending heavy arms and are deliveries and tags. so they should sit together and think through that how the 2 nations can come to the table and the door. there's our bilateral relations that through bilateral exchanges and talks, they have to deserve much, but the international community has to come together instead of igniting that. they should understand that how peace should be prevailed and how the, you know, some people off for these countries who are suffering this them suffering can be reduced. and i must say that this one has not only affected this 2 nations this war

has affected the whole world. and one has to really understand how a situation is worsening because we just came out of the pandemic and this war started. and we are now that the problems are continually the inflation. that is you so much of a problem. energy is the concerns of supply chain management concerns everything. so everything is linked to it. so one has to think that instead of supplying amunition, they should sit and think how the please can please well show them some example. since you mentioned piece, let's try to see how it could be sort of realized because in general, politics, as i'm sure you know, a piece is not an abstract concept. it's actually a very practical calculation. when all the protagonist or antagonists decide that you know that interest and better serve by so many facilities,

rather than continuing them. and when it comes to russia, ukraine, them bleeding profusely, both of these countries. but what about the west? do you think the west has have, or has sustained enough losses in this proxy war to actually be an advocate, genuine advocate and will wish for peace. and just to mention this a war, of course, it's extremely painful to see that how profusely this, the 2 nations people are suffering and reading and how the younger generation id lot with the younger generation. i see that they don't even see how their future is going to be. and if you see today's so you create even if today the piece of prevails and the situation normalizes. and then also i 20 go many your student going to back to them a normal situation. so they have to think of all these. and today,

when we talk about the piece that is not only essential for this particular region, also it is very important for the whole one, se, europe's you see how europe is suffering. they are breaking with data, having so many problems within their own nations. they're having problems within europe in the union, then having problems with but inclinations and they are not in consensus with them or decisions because their own people are suffering their suffering. we have seen that how defense minister also germany resigned because you could not leave on whatever it was demanding by the natal, the common people they are suffering the political lead. does they do a lot of things, thinking of their own benefit a lot of time and they don't see how the nation really will benefit and how the common people will benefit what sufferings are happening even in the, in atlantic. so you see that how inflation has grown,

how the energy prices have gone up, and everything is not really in normal ship today. so that is why the important i grandmother. here's a very important, although i think those people who are making decisions or perhaps know what the billing the pension just as intensely as their words in their folks. that's why they can go on out with pretending that ukraine and the supply of weapons is going to solve the problem. speaking of which you are joining us from canada, which are not only has a very large western ukrainian diaspora, but also what i would call a diable, diabolically and to russian government. because canada, deputy prime minister, krisha freeland, who is also western ukrainian de, sad last year that there was democracies, can be safe only once, the russian tyrant and his armies are entirely bank wish. now the words vanquished . this is a brain is a very interesting choice of words in the russian context,

because russia has one of the largest military in the world. how do you interpret that thing and how do you see a country like canada vanquishing russia? a civilian unfortunate that this type of would've been used to one of the important leader of the country. but yes, there is a huge or a euclidean diet, a living in different parts of canada. and they are, of course, are, they are contributing a lot for the canadian economy. but as in see, green, russia was started, we have seen this year and, and pro ukraine propaganda pro you play agenda and are being more popular. and of course, we have seen that of course, that you train in flags almost in every building in every car. and also a russian had faced

a number of times this kind of discrimination that was definitely not there earlier, but they started facing. so here that is also very important to say though they are contributing. but one has to understand that what is the best option for them and how the country like canada should treat border communities. so that is one thing i must say, but another way, of course, you know that the political leadership day, i tried to use the term for the wants of a favorable for them for bank. so and canada is going for the election in $11.00 and a half years time within the canada also didn't have facing lot of problems, will spend damage repair related to panoramic issues. then, problems related to health care issues. they're facing problems related to indigenous population and they're trying to bring them in the mainstream and they have a lot of issues earlier, which they're trying to resolve it. so it's

a lot of time political leaders they use for such a terms to divert the attention of the domestic population from the domestic problems to the other problems. but i actually extremely cynical because it's one thing to support the ukrainian people and put out the ukranian flag, another thing to indoors, the idea that he should fight with russia a country that holds a very strong nuclear capabilities until the very end. i mean, aren't ukrainians the ukrainians in ukraine, the ones who will be paying for this political ambitions of the suppose of ukrainian supporters and canada? yes, i mean if the, if somebody is not understanding the russian military bower and beverly do that is, or, i mean that is really unfortunate because the whole lot of shit will do bowers and give it will. it is, of course, if you will say india, india has been a bigger one of the best partners offered russia for last 60 to 65 years. and they

had different corporation is going very strong. a deal did earlier and it was almost 70 percent of the defense equipment. we just, we'll go from russia and even today we see almost 50 percent of the russian equipments are being used by india. so i mean that our share is definitely a military power, and we have also seen in the recent war that how or russia manager in the world run and, and there's no doubt on that. if somebody is speaking on that, then we should not take them very seriously. they have some other intentions probably to focus on well doctor, it unfortunate to we have to live in there. thank you very much for being with us today. thank you. thank you, and thank you for watching hope to see her again on well, the part ah ah,

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