involved in this war and i'm wondering what do you find yourself in all of this? not only as an academic, but also as a human being. i have spent a lot of my time in russia as well as in the grade during my early academic year. i was in russia and then i also started in the ukraine in the give a, the international relation institute as my specialization is international relations. i get to weekly, i've been involved with this region for now many decades. and i have been working and my research is focusing mainly on the street region. so i have some sort of understanding and clarity of the present situation and why it is today like this and why it appears, whatever it is today. because this is, as we all know, this is not a one day or 2 day conflict. this has been going on for many years. and as i mentioned that i have lived there,

i know this is 2 countries. people are very much of connected with each other, their culture because they're very similar to each other. and do you have related as well as it, within their family, either father or mother or grandfather. and grandmother somebody is that belongs to either from russia or from you, but it doesn't get accounted. can i stop you here for a 2nd? because this is a very important when both you and many other experts described russia, ukraine as not the same, but similar, you know, there's certain sort of cultural and ethnic substance that we have in common. and yet when we talk to the ukrainians, especially the, you know, political leadership of your cream, they presented as if there could be no more different countries and no more different people than the russians and the ukrainians. and in fact, part of their political parent, i'm,

is to present ukraine as the very antidote of russia, and that was only political thing. ok, that's their choice. but they, as you know, i'm sure, very well, even before the outbreak of this culture, there was a wide spread discrimination or suppression of our russian language of russian culture of russian way of being. even though i think that down, it's not that much different from the ukrainian. how do you explain all that? resentment is, is it just like the natural pains of separation, or do you think that's? that's deliberate. you know, in the, you clean up the high does some sort of a feeling that they did not get there right share during the soviet times and their language. the literature did not get that much opportunity as a, as the russian language. so that was one of the reasons another reason they were very keen to be part of the you would lead to community and then felt that they are more of

a european then or towards the russia. so that is another reason. so we have seen this ethnic problems and the problem so specifically feeds to by those people who are living in the eastern part of russia who are mainly russian speaking and russian origin. people as well. we have seen in some parts of central and southern part what best buy was little different. and if you clean eyes ation and the language a popularity by placing this language that we can very, very common and very, very, very prominent. then all the publications, the newspaper started coming out in a new plane in that language. the schools who was media was actually earlier russian language this stop that and they started teaching only in the cleaning language. and also anonymous monday was coming to engage people to ride

and come out to it. more euclidean propaganda doesn't ukrainian nation. and i must tell you that external powers also had a lot of hand in igniting this kind of feelings. because this clearly divided the in don't know, domestic population. and we know that they were a foreign engine at that time in the initial units when a based in a p and other bots of you played. and they were funding to encourage this kind of i to do that movement, which was definitely painful to see. but to get back kind of equalization started from the beginning and they want to do that. he deliberately with door. they knew that the rush is very important for them, but they did this kind of go from there followed this move. you mentioned is a grievance. the perception that the ukrainian language or ukraine, as

a republic didn't get announced my attention are enough respect from the soviet authorities and as somebody who actually started soviet national policy, national national policies, i can attest to the fact that if i'm not mistaken, but i think i'm pretty close to the truth. ukraine was the largest recipient of soviet funding in absolute terms. and the same goes for and you know, the support of the language to support them to culture and infrastructure. what have you in georgia, by the way, i think was the largest recipient in per cap at the terms. and yet those 2 republics have developed this very strong resentment. despite me sitting much more than an ethnic russians or many other people that made the former soviet union. it's fascinating to me, but the one question i wanted to ask you is, why do you think the georgian war of 2008 was so much different from the ukrainian

a conflict that is still ongoing? because back down, so many of the sort of dynamics preceding the war were similar in western funding, you know, national governments, etcetera. but russia didn't go all the way to, to occupy any of the territories of georgia and it stopped short, all absorbing, breakaway republics into itself. why do you think the russian rationale has changed this time around? well, when you are comparing the euclidean war with georgia, that is a, that debate has been going on since the euclid ocean war started. so then i lot of similarities that we can see like in, in the ukraine also does evolution feeling starting from the orange evolution funded by western nations in georgia. also, we have seen the rules of illusion, which was heavily funded by the western nations. they also had a western of affiliated leaders and also because it really was the same in georgia

. so there were a lot of similarities in the also georgia also wanted to be part of the data. and you can also a want to be part of europe in your crime literature. political leadership wants to be part of maybe it's not so clear whether it's the case when you look at the pause . yes, yes. well, i was writing this book and sitting in your grade, and during that time i interviewed 2 different age group people. i've had people a millennial, so then people in the middle it as well as old age people. so i found the younger generation david, very, very much enthusiastic to get affiliated with the european union because they get a thought that that will open the gateway and they will become more western and they can gets a lot of facilities, whether the middle aged people, they understood that dan affiliation with russia, they're lincoln with russia is very important to sustain the stability in the

country and maintain, and whatever the relationship they have. and the older people were very much in favorable to maintain the relation with russia. but what is the difference here when i, 1st and foremost, i would like to mention that dr. war which started in around 2008. that time, it was totally different to russia today, or russian leader has got a much more understanding about how to tackle this, this type of issues. and they understand that what is the, what is the best option here. and, and that was definitely a problem getting from, with the site and backbone to dive in georgia and i see a war was going on that day. or she was also facing the problem with its own people like and say, there was just your gardening. also the neighboring south caucasians like as of general mania, was having problems then south asia, i was trying to merge with federation. and,

and they were having the fear of the spill back to the notice asia. so those kind of things when also are there. and so that is why a doctor war lasted for a very long period. and at the same time, i would also say that this one is more of a information war. like here we see a lot of this information or social media. a lot of internet is giving and spending of the information to which is also confusing much more up to the general population, creating more complex situation. and here also another problem i would like to mention that international community is much more involved in a different way, which was not there at the time of the georgia war. now doctrine, if i can seize upon your statement that the russia between 20082022 has changed dramatically, including the thinking of the russian leadership. and i think one of the most

popular explanations in the west war, this turn around in the russian position is put into personal grandeur that he became older, is that he became perhaps more delusional. started imagining himself as this new russian ampere said on conquering, if not the world done, at least that you know, the space of the former soviet union. do you by that explanation? well, definitely not to, i mean, it is a russian leader is totally differently than what it was earlier. and at last has got some kind of a love, i mean, for forming their own perception that evolve. and he'll like it. they are putting a president zelinski as a hero and bringing him in every evans fear for life, but they are giving him the opportunity to share his views,

not only in forums and summits, but also in the universities to the younger people. i was making a president or put in as a villain, but that is definitely not the case. and of you know that he understand what is good for their nation, which is good for its people. and if you see russian military doctrine, of course, you know very well that in the, by russian military doctor, in the home mentioned that if there is any kind of a threat to, to the russian speaking population or russian citizens living in the former soviet states. then last year can go to the extent of using force to predict and a national event. they have been doing this similar to what it was mentioned in their agreement. and you know, that means few and in score one means today, well, there is agreements but also not valid. so just of having a blame game or just a demonizing, somebody does not really a song that they show which is actually

a different. and this kind of provocation will definitely not make much sense of it . or what makes sense right now is taking a very short break, but maybe we'll be back to this fascinating discussion in just a few moments. pitching, ah ah oh ah needs to come to the russian state will never be tied up. i'm phoning 19 davis with the bible dino keys on i need to speak with little van in the

european union. the kremlin. yup. machines. the state aren't russia to date and r t spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all band on youtube. and with me, ah ah ah, ah

ah, the me i welcome back to world departments and he did up condo senior researcher at york university and also several books on relation between india and the countries of the former soviet union. no, can you beat them before the break we were talking about this extreme personalization or sort of money key. i'm thinking of dividing the world into the forces of good and the forces of evil and 11 other feature of western analysis that is so very surprising and striking to me is that pretension that structural reasons don't exist. i mean, when you listen to western policymakers,

they go to extreme lengths to, with everything on the russia pretending as if native, for example, and russia, security concerns of a nature don't exist. they also, for some reason for many here is turned blind eyes. not only to ethnic discrimination, but they only support a non just national is, but only a fallback forces in not only in the grain but also in many other countries of the former soviet union. for example, the baltic states wouldn't be an exaggeration on my part to suggest that when it comes to russia, everything goes that the one that was doesn't feel bound by its own. suppose it norms. well, you are very correct in saying so because so list feels that whatever they are doing and whatever they want to do that has been going on for quite some time. so

that has become kind of a practice. and i know that what they do that is correct. and what are those are thinking and doing at this point that that thing is definitely not correct. so you have probably noticed that this is a very much of this shorter that how india deferred from the west in taking a number of decisions related to your claim. russia relations because so listed media and western propaganda as well. such that one of the ways to thinking that is, that is correct and that should be agreed of. it is definitely not. today's world is changed. today's a globalized world. people has got a different thought process. and a years ago when they talk about the human rights violation. so are they looking into the human rights violation in their own nations? and what are they doing for that? are they really actively was working for that and protecting the people?

i know we don't see that always. so when did he say others and when they talk about other nations and other people, because what my understanding is, every 20 understands the national interest in their thinking, their national interests and their concern about their security issues that you saw that how are the balloon issue that the one that was concerned about the security concern and that's why it was a shot back. so. so definitely every country is concerned about then when it is to be here for to, for just for a 2nd to further discussion. i think my perception of covering geopolitics for many years is that it's not only that need to understand that on a national interest, but they usually understand the national interest of their partners of the opponents. and they try generally try to find some midway. that is considered to be

the basis of balance, the basis of peace. why do you think the west has very little respect for this structure of international politics that it's not only them who have interest, you know, other countries in the world and by nature, by their very nature have something some security concerns, some national imperative that they have to protect, regardless of whether they're west, approve of it or not? no, absolutely. you're absolutely correct because that is what has been happening and probably they had the idea that it will go on like that. but when it deferred, then they have a problem and then they try to push a different way. at this point of time, i would definitely say that the old international community, global global community should come together instead of sending heavy arms and are deliveries and dance that they should sit together and think through that how the 2

nations can come to the table and the door does our bilateral relations that through bilateral exchanges and talks, they have to design but, but the international community has to come together instead of igniting that. they should understand that how peace should be prevailed and how the, you know, some people off for these countries who are suffering this them suffering can be reduced. and i must say that this one has not only affected the 2 nations this war has affected the whole world. and one has to really understand how a situation is worsening because we just came out of the pandemic and this war started. and we are now that the problems are continually the inflation. that is you so much of a problem. energy is the concerns of supply chain management concerns everything. so everything is linked to it. so one has to think that instead of supplying amunition,

they should sit and think how the please can play well as the show them some example. since you mentioned piece, let's try to see how it could be sort of realized. because in general, politics, as i'm sure you know, a piece is not an abstract concept, it's actually a very practical calculation. when all the protagonist or antagonists decide that you know that interest and better serve by stopping facilities rather than continuing them. and when it comes to russia, ukraine, them bleeding profusely, both of these countries. but what about the west? do you think the west has had or has sustained enough losses in this proxy war to actually be an advocate, genuine advocate and will wish for peace. and just to mention this a war, of course, it's extremely painful to see that how profusely the 2 nations people are

suffering and reading and how the younger generation id lot with the younger generation, i see that they don't even see how their future is going to be and if you see today's so you create even if today the piece of prevails and the situation normalizes. and then also i 20 go many your student going to back to them a normal situation. so they have to think of all these and today when we talk about the piece that is not only essential for this particular region, also it is very important for the whole one, se, europe's you see how europe is suffering. they are breaking with data, having so many problems within their own nations. they're having problems with in europe in the union. then having problems with but inclinations. and they are not in consensus with them or decisions because their own people are suffering their suffering. we have seen that how defense minister of germany resigned because she

could not leave on whatever was demanding by the needle. the common people are suffering to politically does for they do a lot of think thinking of their own benefit a lot of time and they don't see how the nation really will benefit and how the common people will benefit what sufferings are happening, even in atlanta. so you see that how inflation has grown, how the energy prices has gone up, and everything is not really in normal ship today. so that is why the important me i grandmother is very important. although i think those people who are making decisions, or perhaps not the billing the pension just as intensely as their words and their folks, that's why they can go on out with pretending that ukraine and the supply of weapons is going to solve the problem. speaking of which you are joining us from canada, which are not only has

a very large western ukrainian diaspora but also what i would call a diable, diabolically and to russian government. because canada, deputy prime minister, krisha freeland, who is also off western ukrainian de sac last year that there was democracies, can be safe only once, the russian tyrant and his armies are entirely bank wish. now the words vanquished . this is a brain is a very interesting choice. of words in the russian context, because russia has one of the largest military in the world. how do you interpret that thing and how do you see a country like canada, vanquishing russia, a civilian unfortunate that this type of would've been used to one of the important leader of the country. but to yes, there is a huge, a euclidean dias, a living in different parts of canada. and they are, of course, are, they are contributing a lot for the canadian economy. but as in see green,

russia was started, we have seen this year and, and pro ukraine propaganda pro euclid agenda and are being more popular. and of course, we have seen that of course, that you train in flags almost in every building in every car. and also a russian had faced a number of times this kind of discrimination that was definitely not there earlier, but they started facing. so here that is also very important to say though they are contributing. but one has to understand that what is the best option for them and how the country like canada should treat border communities. so that is one thing i must say, but another way, of course, you know that a political leadership day, i tried to use the term for the wants of a favorable for them for bank. so and canada is going for the election

in $11.00 and a half years time within the canada. also the and have facing lot of problems will spend damage repair related to panoramic issues. them problems related to health care issues. they're facing problems related to indigenous population and they're trying to bring them in the mainstream and they have a lot of issues earlier, which they're trying to resolve it. so it's a lot of time political leaders they use for such a terms to divert the attention of the domestic population from the domestic problems to the other problems. but i extremely cynical because it's one thing to support the ukrainian people and put out the ukranian flag, another thing too, and indoors. the idea that he should fight with russia a country that holds a very nuclear capabilities until the very end. i mean, aren't ukrainians. the ukrainians in ukraine,

the ones who will be paying for this political ambitions of the suppose ukrainian supporters and canada. yes, i mean if, if somebody is not understanding the russian military power and beverly, do that, is that, or, i mean that is really unfortunate because the whole lot solution will do bowers and give it will. it is, of course, if you will say india, india has been a bigger one of the best partners offered russia for last 60 to 65 years. and they had different corporation is going very strong. a deal did earlier and it was almost 70 percent of the defense equipment switches to come from russia. and even today, vc almost 50 percent of the russian equipments are being used by india. so i mean that our share is definitely a military power. and we have also seen in the recent war that how or russia manager in the world run and, and, and there's no doubt on that. if somebody is speaking on that,

then we should not take them very seriously. they have some other intentions probably to focus on. well doctor, it unfortunately we have to live with there. thank you very much for being with us today. thank you. thank you, and thank you for watching hope to see her again on well, the part ah oh, i will never be a victory for russia. we solution with much really need not unless you look at a mean you train. war is a proxy war. this is

a war between russia and the united states. milan are made, it comes to not shooting the 9 carbon dioxide. america forces are and you're not in your gage in conflict with russian forges. american forces are here and defend nato allies. what happens that nato escalates even more indiscretion? military operations become a war when you put those sets of rules, that dealership and that notion is my thought, i see it that i see it your to us thinking possibly got out of the lift. so you st . issue week and you stuff to with only just to finish the renew sewerage. no sneak of the girl today. and because you never done before,

we trigger the general paper that means national government can pump into the economy has much as a fanatical 22 in a month. and yet we didn't come back. and i'm not the yet it to us own to that at all. with my son he got did the mean and or messy. the sick at sick called me yoda stanley and he got it on monday. the financial due to the this is a for me i need to just this and he that i mean for the reset your home phone. go out shamefully from lam. i'm not sure who to lee should buddy are likely to get very loud to stop all of the a. this will be too. i know you're very much of a book. they both kristie but not with the dog.

last, last you know, ah, the head, a group face is fine. kids have taken the don't yet for public village class niagara. a key foothold near auto mall, also known as bach lute which the ukrainians have been faced, the defending from 30000 to confirm dead off the catastrophic earthquakes hit takia and syria. at the death toll continues to ride. both countries struggle to cope with the full lab. and then boom, shell fine award winning american journalists, alleges the u. s. sounds, norway sabotaged the node stream quite blind to deprive western europe at the cheap russian gap with.