vantage point onto this conundrum because you spend years growing up and studying in both russia and ukraine. then you went on to further york a damn a career in the west while also keeping in touch with your country of origin in day, which has long strive for a balance position. so i think you have this unique combination of both proximity and distance to everybody involved in this war. and i'm wondering what do you find yourself and all of this, not only as an academic, but also as a human being. i haven't spent a lot of my time in russia as wednesday. any grade during my early i got any kids i was in russia and then i also started in your grade in the give a the international relation institute as my specialization is international relations. again, to weekly, i've been involved with this legion for now many decades, and i have been working and my research is focusing mainly on the street region. so

i have some sort of understanding and clarity of the present situation and why it is today like this and why it appears, whatever it is today. because this is, as we all know, this is not a one day or 2 day conflict. this has been going on for many years and as i mentioned that i have lived there, i know this is 2 countries. people are very much connected with each other. their culture is either very similar to each other. and do you have relatives as well as it, within their family, either father or mother or grandfather and grandmother, somebody is of belongs to either from russia or from you, but it doesn't get accounted. can i stop you here for a 2nd because this is a very important point. c both you and many other experts described russia, ukraine as not same by similar. you know,

there are certain i sort of cultural and ethnic substance that we have in common. and yet when we talk to the ukrainians, especially the, you know, political leadership of your cream. they presented as if there could be no more different countries and no more different people down the russians and the ukrainians. and in fact, part of their political paradigm is to present ukraine as the very antidote of russia and in that was only political thing. ok, that's their choice, but they, as you know, i'm sure very well, even before the outbreak of this culture, there was a wide spread discrimination or suppression of russian language of russian culture of russian way of being. even though i think the deep down. it's not that much different from the ukrainian. how do you explain all that? resentment is, is it just like the natural pains of separation, or do you think that's, that's deliberate. you know, in that you clean up,

the hype does some sort of a feeling that they did not get there right shed during the soviet dimes and their language. their literature did not get that much opportunity as a, as the russian language. so that was one of the reasons another reason is they were very keen to be part of the you would lead to community and then felt that they are more of a european then towards the russia. so that is another reason. so we have seen this ethnic problems and the problem so specifically feeds to by those people who are living in the eastern part of russia. we're mainly russian speaking and russian origin, people as well. so we have seen in some parts of central and southern but best buy was a little different. and this united nation and the language a, populated by placing this language that we can, a very common enable a very,

very prominent. then all the publications, a newspaper started coming out in a new plane in that language. the schools who was media was actually earlier russian language this stop that and they started teaching only in the cleaning language. and also an order. last monday was coming to engage people to write and come out to it. more euclidean propaganda doesn't ukrainian nation, and i must tell you that external powers also had a lot of hand in igniting this kind of feelings. because this clearly divided the internal domestic population and we know that they were a foreign engineer at that time where in the initial years, well, a based in eve and other parts of you played. and they were funding to encourage

this kind of attitudes at movement, which was definitely painful to see. but yes, back kind of equalization, started from the beginning and they wanted to very deliberately with door. they knew that russia is very important for them, but they did a kind of for they followed this move. you mentioned is a perception that the ukrainian language or ukraine as a republic didn't get enough attention or enough respect from the somebody there for it is. and as somebody who actually started soviet national policy, national national poses, i can attest to the fact that if i'm not mistaken, but i think i'm pretty close to the truth. ukraine was the largest recipient of soviet funding in absolute terms. and the same goes for, you know, the support of the language to support them to culture and infrastructure. what have you in georgia, by the way,

was the largest the recipient in per capita terms. and again, those 2 republics have developed this very strong resentment, despite will be much more than ethnic russians or many other people. that may dog the former soviet union is fascinating to me, but one question i wanted to ask you is, why do you think the georgia war of 2008 was so much different from the ukrainian calls like that is still ongoing because back down many of the sort of dynamics preceding the war were similar, western funding, you know, national grievances, etc. but russia didn't go all the way to, to occupy any of the territories of georgia and it stopped short, all absorbing, breakaway republics into itself. why do you think the russian rationale has changed this time around? well, when you are comparing the euclidean war with georgia, that is,

that debate has been going on for since the euclid russia ward started. so then i lot of similarities that we can see like in, in the ukraine also does this illusion feeling starting from the orange revolution funded by western nations in georgia. also, we have seen the rules of illusion, which was heavily funded by the western nations. they also had on weston, of affiliated leaders and also because it really was the same way in georgia. so there were a lot of similarities in the also georgia also wanted to be part of the data. and you can also a want to be part of european, your crime literature. political leadership wants to be part of maybe it's not so clear whether it's the case when you look at the pause. yes, yes. well, i was writing this book and sitting in your grade, and during that time i interviewed in a different age group people, i've had people in millennial, so then people in the middle it as well as old age people. so i found the younger

generation david, very, very much enthusiastic to get affiliated with the european union because they get a thought that that will open the gateway and they will become more western and they can gets a lot of facilities, whether the middle aged people, they understood that dan affiliation with russia, their linkage with russia is very important to sustain the stability in the country and maintain, and whatever the relationship they have. and i want to be very much in favorable to maintain the relation with russia. but what is the difference here when i, 1st and foremost, i would like to mention that is that a war which started in around 2008, that time it was totally different to russia today, or russian leader has got a much more understanding about how to tackle this, this type of issues and they understand that what is the,

what is the best option here and, and that was definitely relocating from the site. i'm backbone to dive in georgia and i see a war was going on that day that she was also facing a problem with its own people like and say there was judges, god willing, also the neighboring felt. caucasian is like, as of a general mania, was having problem then south asia, a was trying to merge with ration and they were having the fear office build back to the notice asia. so those kind of things went also there. and so that is why a doctor war lasted for a very long period. and at the same time, i would also say that this one is more of an information war lake. here we see a lot of this information about our social media. lot of in done it is giving and spreading out the information, which is also confusing much more to the general population, creating more complex situation. and here also another problem i would like to

mention that international community is much more involved in a different way, which was not there at the time of the georgia war. now doctrine, even if i can seize upon your statement that the russia between 20082022 has changed dramatically, including the thinking of the russian leadership. and i think one of the most popular explanations in the west war, they turn around in the russian position is put into personal grandeur that he became older. he started but he became perhaps more delusional. started imagining himself as this new russian emperor said on conquering, if not the world done, at least, you know, the space of the former soviet union. do you by that explanation. well, definitely not to. it is a russian leader is totally differently than what it was earlier and at

last has got some kind of a love. i'm in more forming their own perception that evolved and he'll leg and they are putting the president zalinski as a hero and bringing him in every evans seattle for life. but they are giving him the opportunity to share his views, not only in forums and summits, but also in the universities to the younger people. i was making a president or put in as a villain, but that is definitely not the case. and of you know, that he understands what is good for the nation, which is good for its people. and if you'll see russian military doctrine, of course, you know very well that in the, by russian military doctrine. the her mention that if there is any kind of a threat to the russian speaking population or russian citizens living in the former soviet states then and i sure can go to the extent of using force to predict

then a national event. they have been doing this or similar to what it was mentioned in the agreements, and you know, that means few admin sco. one minutes. do they were there these agreements but also not valid? so just of having a blame game order or just a demonizing, somebody does not really a song, but they show which is actually a different. and this kind of provocation will definitely not make much sense of what makes sense right now is taking a very short break, but maybe will be back to this fascinating discussion in just a few moments that you end ah fife,

the joggers archipelago, homer, the jo, san diego garcia, the largest island in the archipelago, is now the location of a very large u. s. military base. you get given med, div our i to the u. s. government to make a military base and just deported all of tuggle sent people from their country. so they call it return back on the island. no, but we are fighting. that's why i'm fight. we'll fighting for the right. so i, we do not consider the right to self determination actually applies to the trickle . since i don't the question, no self determination of the legal advice we've received is actually the trickle. since we're not at all, not a people for me, it's time to move on and see what we can do. a full the tumbler said committee to return back home. there is no support from the nomination. i commission,

i forget united michigan don't care about jugglers, said people with the me i welcome back to world departments. end up going to senior researcher at york university and author of several books on relation between india and the countries of the former soviet union. don't. can you beat them before the break we were talking about this extreme personalization or that our money key. i'm thinking of dividing the world into the forces of good and the forces of evil and 11 of the

feature of western analysis that is so very surprising and striking to me is the pretension that structural reasons don't exist. i mean, when you listen to western policymakers, they go to extreme lengths to, with everything on the russia pretending as if native, for example, and russia, security concerns over nature don't exist. they also, for some reason for many here is turned blind eyes not only to ethnic discrimination, but they only support a non, just national is but only in a fall. the 4th is in not only in ukraine, but also in many other countries. of the former soviet union, for example, the baltic states wouldn't be an exaggeration on my part to suggest that when it comes to russia, everything goes that the one that was doesn't feel bound by its own supposed norms . well, you was very correct in saying so because so list feels that whatever they are

doing and whatever they want to do that has been going on for quite some time. so that has become kind of a practice. and i know that to what they do that is correct. and what are those are thinking and doing at this point that that thing is definitely not correct. so you have probably noticed that this is a very much of this shorter that how india deferred from the west in taking a number of decisions related to ukraine, russia relations because so a media was dental and as was such that one of the ways to thinking that is, that is correct and that should be agreed of. it is definitely not. today's world is changed. today's a globalized world. people has got a different thought process and a year. so when they talk about the human rights violation,

so are they looking into the human rights violation in their own nations? and what are they doing for that? are they really actively was working for that and protecting the people? i know we don't see that on with so when did he say others and when they talk about other nations and other people because what my understanding is, every country understands the national interest, if they're thinking their national interests and they're concerned about their security issues that you saw that, how are the balloon issue that happened there? one was concerned about the security concern and that's what it was a shot back. so. so definitely every country is concerned about this. i mean, for me is to be here for to, for just for a 2nd to further discussion. i think my perception of covering geopolitics for many years is that it's not only that is need to understand that on

a national interest. but they usually understand the national interest of their partners on the opponents and they try genuinely, try to find some midway that is considered to be the basis of balance, the basis of peace. why do you think the west has very little respect for this structure of international politics that it's not only them who kind of interest, you know, other countries in the world, by nature, by their very nature have something some security concerns, some national imperative that they have to protect, regardless of whether they're west, approve of it or not. absolutely. you're absolutely correct because that is what has been happening and that probably they had the idea that it will go on like that . but when it deferred, then they have a problem and then they try to push in a different way. at this point of time, i would definitely say that the old international community,

global global community should come together instead of sending heavy arms and are deliveries and dance. they should sit together and think through that how the 2 nations can come to the table. and the door does our bilateral relations that through bilateral exchanges and talks, they have to design but, but the international community has to come together instead of igniting that. they should understand that how peace should be prevailed and how the, you know, some people for these countries who are suffering this them suffering can be reduced. and i must say that this one has not only affected this 2 nations this war has affected the whole. 3 world and one has to really understand how a situation is worsening because we just came out of the pandemic and this war started. and we are now that the problems are continually the inflation. that is, you so much of a problem energy,

the concerns of supply chain management concerns everything, so everything is linked to it. so one has to think that instead of supplying a new nation, they should sit and think how the police can play. well, i saw them some example, since you mentioned piece, let's try to see how it could be sort of realized because in general, polls exact as i'm sure you know, a piece is not an abstract concept. it's actually a very practical calculation. when all the protagonist or antagonists decide that you know that interest and better serve by stopping facilities rather than continuing them. and when it comes to russia, ukraine, they're bleeding profusely, both of this country. but what about the west? do you think the west has had or has sustained enough losses in this proxy war to actually be an advocate and genuine advocate and will wish for peace as

i just to mention this a war? of course, it's extremely painful to see that how profusely this, the 2 nations people are suffering and needing and how the younger generation id lot with the younger generation. i see that they don't even see how their future is going to be. and if you see today's so you create even if today the piece of prevails and the situation normalizes. and then also it will go many years to live on to back to the room a normal situation. so they have to think of all these and today when we talk about the piece that is not only essential for this particular region, also it is very important for the whole one, se, europe's you see how europe is suffering. they are breaking within. they are having so many problems within their own nations. they're having problems with in europe, in the union. they're having problems with good inclinations. and they are not in

consensus with them or decisions because their own people are suffering their suffering. we have seen that how defense minister also germany resigned because as you go, no nobody on whatever was demanding by the natal. the common people are suffering or political lead does that. they do a lot of think, thinking of their own benefit a lot of time and they don't see how the nation really will benefit and how the common people will benefit what sufferings are happening even in the, in atlantic. so you see that how inflation has grown, how the energy prices have gone up, and everything is not really in normal ship it today. so that is why the important i grandmother. here's a very important, although i think those people who are making decisions or perhaps know the billing the pension just as intensely as their ordinary folks. that's why they can we go on

our with pretending that ukraine and the supply of weapons is going to solve the problem. speaking of which you are joining us from canada, which not only has a very large western ukrainian diaspora, but also what i would call a diable, diabolically and to russian government. because canada, deputy prime minister, krisha freeland, who is also western ukrainian de sac last year that there was democracies, can be safe only once, the russian tyrant and his armies are entirely bank, wished. now the words vanquished. this is a very interesting choice of words in the russian context, because russia has one of the largest military into world. how do you interpret that statement? how do you see a country like canada vanquishing russia? well, it is very unfortunate that this type of woods have been used to one of the important leader of the country. but to yes and there is a huge, a euclidean dias,

a living in different parts of canada. and they are, of course, are contributing a lot for the canadian economy, but as in see, green, russia was started. we have seen this year. and, and, bro, you're grad propaganda, bro, euclid agenda. and are being more popular. and of course, we have seen that, of course, that you've been in france almost in every building in every car. and also a russian had faced a number of times this kind of for discrimination that, that was definitely not there earlier, but they started facing. so here that is also very important to say though they are contributing. but one has to understand that what is the best option for them and how the country like canada should treat both the communities. so that is one thing

i must say, but another way of course, you know that the political leaders, they tried to use the terms or the wants of a favorable for them for bank. so and canada is going for the election in 191 and a half years time within the canada. also the and have facing lot of problems will span damage repair related to panoramic issues. their problem related to health care issues. they're facing problems related to indigenous population. i mean, they're trying to bring them in the mainstream and they have a lot of issues earlier, which they're trying to resolve it. so it's a lot of time political leaders. they use such a terms to divert the attention of the domestic population from the domestic problems to the other problems. but i extremely cynical because it's one thing to support the ukrainian people and put out the ukraine blackest. another thing too

indoors. the idea that he should fight with russia a country that holds a very strong nuclear capabilities until the very end, i mean, onto creamy of the ukrainians in ukraine. the ones who will be paying for this political ambitions of the suppose ukrainian supporters and canada. yes, i mean if it, if somebody is not understanding the russian military power and beverly do that is, or, i mean that is really unfortunate because the whole world or the ship will do bowers and give it is of course, if you will say india, india has been a, one of the best partners to offer russia for last 60 to 65 years. and their defense cooperation is going very strong. a deal did earlier, it was almost 70 percent of the defense, a good man. we just come from russia. and even today we see almost 50 percent of a russian equipments are being used by india. so i mean that i share is definitely

a military power and via also seen in the recent war that how or russia your manager in the world run and, and, and there's no doubt on that. if somebody is speaking on that, then we should not take them very seriously. they have some other intentions probably to focus on. well, dr. me that it unfortunately we have to live in there. thank you very much for being with us today. thank you. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to hear again on, well, the part ah mm for

awe every spring and summer, the melting optic snow reveals abandoned machinery, millions of rusty barrels and the detritus left by human expansion into this most inaccessible of territories. yeah. can you move, so take a look at the possibly can any ship all in tears from clean arctic travel to heis island home to the biggest polar station on the french joseph land archipelago. i asked me, but i lost my bosom more yet as it should. so him is, it's gonna be a homeless, the nasa monthly and i'm, but somebody with a, some a stay on the oil stuff works. i'm like, you feel like you are a mary from a serial number 0 membership, one year to year of capillary dorm, cyril know, boys of premier latrice, chico, me at that of the arctic pioneers. main objective was to explore and conquer these

harsh lands. they had no time to think about waste management now and legacy could remain for centuries, get my choice of so with some of this to plenty of opportunity and could have deal to fish. i couldn't is the aggressor today, i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions. today, russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. and number those constantly growing figure which of the problem was to call soon as you speak on the bill in your senior, mostly mine or will ship. we're banding all imports of russian oil and gas news. i know they plenty of those with lower

with the letter from, you know, with regard to joe biden, imposing these sanctions on russia has destroyed the american economy. so there is your boomerang, ah ah, ah, ah, hello in welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter real about. we were told it was one of those mysteries of the ages. this is how the west described the destruction of the north stream pipelines. then came along betral investigative journalist, seymour hersh. he tells us differently and in great detail. indeed the bye didn't.