a different joe biden in imposing the sanctions on russia who has destroyed the american economy. so there's your boomerang, ah, ah, ah, ah, hello in welcome to cross stock. we're all things are considered. i'm peter about. we were told it was one of those mysteries of the ages. this is how the west describe the destruction of the north stream pipelines. then came along betral investigative journalist, seymour hersh. he tells us differently and in great detail. indeed, the bike administration led the way destroying this civilian infrastructure.

ah, discuss these issues any more. i'm joined by my guest, glen deason, in our slow he is a professor at the university of se or norway, as well as author of the book, great power politics in the 4th industrial revolution. and in myra cash, we crossed martin j. he is in award winning journalist and commentator, journaling cross up rules and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want, and i always appreciate it. i've got a glitch in our slow so, so we came a seymour hersh came out with his report, his investigative reporting on the north, the ending of the north stream. pipelines ending very much like what biden said, i'm sending next to the, the german chancellor. so glen, i mean this is supposed to be a great mystery, but it's not really that much great of a mystery because when after it happened, there was very little bit talk about it. and when someone like seymour hersh,

legendary journalist writes about it, it's completely dismissed and hardly reported on your thoughts. well, this is sam. i keep problem i with the how me the limits the debate. i mean is a good. you can give the illusion of having a open democratic debate if you only narrow the scope of what's allowed to be discussed. so last a draw show or was it a mystery? as long as you have a vibrant debate within that scope a, it seems to be a dilution. but, but again, it should have been if he would have come as a big surprise for a, for a father's pick. it cost us, you mentioned washington for years. you know, they tried to stop this project to condemn the germans for building if they've been sanction dear pin companies for building it, you know, in the name of protecting our energy security. and we have the rand report her order for the u. s. army say on how to weaken and extend russia. and again, in terms of energy, it said the 1st step was to stop nor stream to, you know,

he had to compare. i said, we'll do everything we can to stop it. i diesel, see story, a new link. think and all it is all oh, all open source. yeah. open source in that newland as well said at the, you know, we will find the way of stopping this in a town called news to word we're gonna kill north stream to let it rust beneath the baltic. and of course, this is walked biden oswell said he was very opened in a standing next to the german chancellor. thing if russia goes into your cranial will stop it and no matter what's and, and how are you going to do this? the journalist southwell trust us, we can do it to so it's, it's a, it's a, you know, this amount of evidence there that they wanted to do it. and after it was blown up, you hugged, you know, 1st of all the polish for a previous foreign minister at alex who scored his case. or i think thank you you a say in just remove any doubt to posted a picture of the exploded pipeline. and then you had the little anthony blink, and coming out, send me this thing. this is a tremendous opportunity. now,

maybe we can finally replace the russian energy and with american. and again, that only recently, victoria hulu came out once again that i'm trying to call her back. she made it very clear that she and the united states administration were very gratified that nordstrom now was uncle metal at the bottom of the sea. so, you know, if this was open to base or, or a trial you would have some very strong evidence say that perhaps you didn't even mention the details of the marshes article you gave all the open source here. and then we have his article kind of connect. so let me gonna mark martin here. it's kind of like an inverted o j. simpson case. ok. ok with what off. ok, fine. he didn't kill is ex wife and her boyfriend. then who did? i mean, this is the us and its allies will dismisses the medium. we'll talk about it. so if it's what see my hearse? probably one of the greatest living journals of our time if he's wrong and who did

do it, there is no interest in that either. margaret spirit goes completely against the narrative which has been fed to the job this. yeah, nobody wants to go there. nobody wants to deal in doing this is and i don't know about the reference to oj, i'm worried sema, she's going to end up driving across america on live tv with people chase again, because i think he's, he's heading towards a massive character assassination. i can't imagine wester's already. yeah. it's already started. it's already started. you know, don't be surprised if they find child is left already still this taxes are paid up an ex wife or, or is involved in criminal gangs of anything that's possible. but the story isn't epic, peace, investor, journalism, it really stunning him as well in his college in the as just every paragraph is endorsed as various lines, but it just throws up so many extraordinary questions. extraordinary. as a journalist has been covering a lot of these countries that are really victims of the us intervention,

how oil oil pipelines just keeps on coming up again and again. and again. when you look at using sure, it's something to, to, was try to find for you over a cheap oil and is nearly always to do with pipeline even to get this done. was actually a story about george w bush, george. so george was senior trying to nail a huge energy deal for a telephone company trying to build a pipeline right across the country and negotiating with each other in the late ninety's. it was all about oil pipelines. and again, it's the same story with where the ukraine, well, what this proves the incredible piece of journals improves beyond any doubt is the americans, the button administration light and light and light. and every thing that we see here from mainstream media is just a huge light. and it was the you talked about the reference to, to our there was a mystery. this was a new york times. this wasn't some tabloid,

you haven't heard that you can. it was a new york times reporter, the biggest joy it out there, an imprint today. so you know, android, as even today, i know just refer to single article as a broke. let me think about that. he's rattle the establishment. you know, with this page, but it's the right of them. you know, you've been rattling them since the me line massacre. ok. yes. he didn't publish his, his work on some stack because he's been so discriminated against because he annoys the the be if they don't want to. well, calling you to blog again. if glen you're in norway, norway is. it will get it in his investigation. here was no, we didn't media and the government here. well, one of the newspapers only had one word in the title, which is nonsense. but it's kind of a. well, it is very dismissive and i think it's unfortunate because i think for media they really need to only ask 2 questions. is this true?

that's what they have to pursue. and they said of public interest. now, the truth aspect in that would require them to do some journalism and follow up on this leads and of course of a public interest. but who are the journalist no longer asked status question? rather, if you look in the reporting, the only question i seem to ask is, will this information assist nato or russia? and if it's seen us of favoring the russian narrative, then suddenly a ghost on the memory. holden, sir, unfortunate, because i think a lot of this journalist, they think they're doing us a favor by skewing all the reporting. but at the end of the day, you know, they lose people losing trust in me. then also to taking us down the very dangerous path, you know, 2 course of possible nuclear war. so i don't think they, they thought this a morales through and so, so again, a lot of them are they, the comments were when there were people make arguments which you know or does matter how much fact to rooted in it. people assess, well, doesn't lean towards favoring russia or nato, if it seems okay that russia, then they always go after the person that don't addressed argument. so seymour

hersh, you know, how is the reporting media now, while he's a former investigative journalist, apparently not a whore, he's old, he might be seen nile. he's accused of being a, put in hist. and of course, the posting this in a blog and because he's seen over the hill, that is one of the most respected investigative journalists of our time. not only in revealing this massacre of me line vietnam in the sixty's, but also the upgrade the prison scandal into 2009. surely, he deserves his case. the serfs to be heard, and if again, maybe he's wrong, maybe over the hill. but the, the weakness of the paper i would say was that is based on, on the, on the source which can be confirmed. on the other hand, the strength is smarter, pointed out his huge amount of details. you know, this is a lot to follow up and we don't have to take her word as a gospel, but surely there's a lot. journalists should get all this information

a lot too much on to, let's see where this goes. but again, if it goes towards the point we're seeing a weakening the nato in washington narrative, we don't want to follow this path. and again, it's yeah, i think it's a disgrace in but martin, i'm glad that we'd be in the element of details brought up when i read it. i just thought this was, i mean if this is a fake story or he invested in norman, i'm an expert in making up those details there. but with martin, when it would, it's important to understand. i think that again, we went over the open source information here, then we have this investigative journalism and they, they, they fall into each other just perfectly mean that i think both the view and our viewers were, they were reading the article, realized, oh, okay, that, that piece there that makes sense because we knew this in advance. i mean, there's no refuting of facts. there's just refuting of him. yeah, it's become,

will become intense, personalized it will be able about him. but i just, i just some googling before and i noticed that the stories being picked up quite a lot around the world. so in this situation, at a certain point, the american journalists are almost obliged to actually follow up and actually report the reported. and i think that's what probably happened in the next couple of weeks. folks are using it as a way of attacking the, by the ministration that's supposed to be expected. i take, which i would take glens point to talk about the source. i think it was more than one source if i remember looking at again. but i think there were a couple of sources that as a gentleness, you know, we, we tend to look at the tiny details. and we notice that there is a certain resonance in the article of business from these sources who tend to seem to be owned by them. so, you know, there is a real intelligence community takes nothing more than a president who is sloppy and indiscreet with operations that are undergoing are

about to undergo. and as a few, sideswiped was quite shocked about the statements by the made about the under secretary statements as well. you know, it was all very indiscreet. so i think that's important. but for me, their article really does throw up some incredibly important questions, isn't germany then just american? you know, that that's exactly what i want to ask both of you have a glen. i mean, i don't read your when i tell, you know, i can just jump into the russian and the german media sphere. but from what i can gather, it's been a very muted reaction by them. i mean, and they're the biggest victims. and all of this really this after sitting, sucking up when yeah, well they're taking another one on the chin. i guess i'm not saying i read golf. my german is a high school level, so i don't want to brush too much about it. but, you know, from reading spiegel and all that put it into for a new section, is there pipeline, by the way. and they kind of refer to, you know, russian allegations and in, on that they're on del, too much into the,

to the specific accusations. but, but again, it's a, it's, i think schwartz is becoming a bit, cumulative casino, you have this pipeline and everyone knows that the united states, at least is the, has been behind this, like really a, how much more evidence do we need from? it's a officials. but also it's a continuation of this tank issue where obviously us pressured them into sending the lead part tanks and the u. s. not going to save their sunday abrams probably, or at least not for another year or so, but i'm guessing it was only to push them. so they kind of notice how they're being manipulated and pressured, and a lot of german officials are getting quite a thought hold that thought we have a good, a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion and some will new st with our p. o. for

and never done before. we trigger the general. yeah. okay. that means national government can come into the economy as much as a nickel, a natalie 22 in the youngest, we didn't think about. i'm not gonna get it to us all to that at all. the law moves his dad, my son, he died in the me that i may city sick at sick with his dad, my son, he started on monday. the financial due to, to this is a for me, i need to turn this this and he said, i got me for the reset your home phone. go out shameful from lam. i'm not sure who to lee should, but bob, i'll likely to get very loud to talk a soon. it'll be nice to restore this will be to, oh, and i want you're probably much more. a more stable received by not coming up

with dawn last last you know, even with welcome back. across the dock. were all things are considered. i'm peter. well, this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real nits. ah go back to martin america. where it's in looking at the reaction to it or non reaction to this story if there's a certain service that i get from the official american legacy media, is that yeah, well, so what we can do, it may be, this kind of impunity is and plus the watching the germans particularly

shows being humiliated they that mission accomplished. okay. i mean they are doing everything. glenn said he took another one on the cheek. i mean, is there any, i don't know how many cakes he has like i keep getting hit over and over and over again. so, i mean, you know, the fact that the germans are being humiliated again and it tells people to get in line. you know, there's, you know, where the unity here lots of bar go ahead. we are again, a wonder how much immigration shows can also wonder what actually happened in the white house. 3 weeks before nuclear war started. when, when shoot button was a deal struck, then by to say, look, you know, we're going to go ahead and blow up anyway, so you might as well get on board. what did you, she shows that he did. he suggest that it was an option. we might lately to look at, i mean, the interesting thing is the time life, you know, and, and, and, and her just is really lay this up really play in. it makes the point again, again,

again, which is going to be very hard for us journalist to completely ignore this, you know, by them basically prepared himself for the spread the administration from almost they want the most january, 2021 to blow these pipes pipelines, you know, was always considered, reflect, that was considered a threat to emerge because the ability to throw his weight around in europe, the americans were always intimidated and vexed by germany as dependency on cheap gas from russia. so the thinking was, we can get them on board to actually go ahead the a war in ukraine. we need to do something which actually pushes some way rely, so they have 2 choices. i think it's actually amazing. i mean, what is this, what are we actually talking about in terms of international law? we're talking about international terrorism, an active international terrorism. i think by the grace of god. the fact that 49 percent of the company which owns those pipelines was european, if it was

a 100 percent, russia, we could be looking at a world war situation. and it's just not an exaggeration. been remarkably held back and restrained over this. but it tells me, you know what the address is to both of you. okay. well civilian infrastructure in international waters or in the air space is fair game. no, yeah. their game. so what can we expect campaign? would it be realistic? would it be reasonable to assume some sort of response for the russians? well i, i absolutely think so, and i think there's always reciprocity, but it's a symmetric goal. be that time in place of their choosing here, glen, in the broader scheme of things here, there are always people talking about there needs to be a cease fire that needs to be negotiated. end of this. but if you have an administration which, you know, the, the, the investigative integrity that the seem, or her springs to this here. mean the,

what are the russians supposed to say i meaning, if you deny something that is patently obvious, all of the great, the minute process, all the things you've been deployed is every step of the way. but now you're going to be honest with us. it doesn't work that way. no, but it must have been with doesn't matter cause i think it it, it says it doesn't happen because to the media again, as i mentioned it on to report on that a we had the wisdom instagram until 7 years of sabotaging it, very openly. the us and you can especially and then it was never in reporting even when soleski was saying, we're not gonna follow this anymore. there are the media still reports that while rushes to one, not implementing it in the end of the texas, they're black and white. so, so nonsense, and even now, after russia they did, you have, you know, the israel prime minister going out former prime minister bennett's actually saying listen, a, the ukrainians wanted to say the peace agreement that the russians wanted it. this is early march or we, we could have done that, but the, the west said no,

especially us in u. k. they wanted to continue this to smash potent, did it for so an opportune to fight approx a war against them. so, you know, no matter what does matter what the ukrainians wanted, that's, that's why they put the block down then they, they, sir ellis, i pushed out us, negotiated the turks take over. the turkish foreign minister says the same thing that we were close a deal both sides wanted it. and then the west stepped in. the said, no, we want to fight rashana with this ukranian so. so no matter what the ukrainians want woke will continue. and the heels of this reports by the she on a hill and her colleague in a foreign affairs. this are people who are top in the intelligence in networking us and also democratic kid in not leaders, but they are hi up in the democratic party. they also wrote to foreign affairs. yeah, they were close to an agreement. and what russia most important for it wanted only for ukraine to commit to self, not to taking more nato and us weapons on the russian borders desolate russia wanted ukraine wanted, it's territory back. so they were very close to a deal,

and then what's happened them here since then the and, and the british steps in and offer all the weapons in the world. if, if they fastened older men to the front, that's what mitch mcconnell said as well is all nice and well and down to this old idea of, you know, how brave ukrainians are. but this is ultimately about american interest. we have to knock out the russia, that's our goal. lease agreement saying the same thing. this is a great deal for us. the we've promised lensky would provide all the weapons in the world, and he just has to send all his men the fight to the last man. that's his word, fight down to the last ukrainian. and then all of this goes under the umbrella. we want to help them like we have screwed over the ukrainians from day one. i'll just for the language, but we did this and then we call it helping a funny, so cynical and it's disgusting. it's horrible. well, you know, martin, that i mean future historian. so maybe explain to his wife. yeah, there's a lindsey getting is saying, yeah, we'll sacrifice our people. that's really truly extorted,

glen. this is absent from the media. look, you know, you have the israel, the premise or sitting there. thing if word by word, there's no denial afterwards and the media sees it, and if that is true, yes, is it the interest of the public if will publish it know of its strength and the rush narrative, so it disappears and that's what i mean. the reality no longer really matters if you, if you don't want to report on anything. and so it's, it's a 3rd situation. and it's very interesting. and when you get, again, you know, this propaganda machine, you know, protecting ukraine sovereignty. while the u. s. has no interest in protecting its own southern border, but that's another topic for the program. but i mean, you know, talking about, you know, ukraine's international standing an existence here. but what the destruction of the pipelines is basically telling germany you have no sovereignty in any sense of the

word, we will determine your interests. ok, and we will act upon them, particularly when they're not in your interest. martin? yeah, i'm going to go and point things out. so you true that you know everything is there . well, the evidence that you need to look for is already there already on the met or sort of been recorded is youtube. it's there for people to see. and the journalist just choosing not to see it. it wasn't just the piece talks in march, i think which, you know, seem to have gone to an 11th hour, where both sides agreed, which was sculpted by the americans and british. it was actually worse than that. if you look at the timeline and go back to biden's an alteration just before i think in december 2020, the russians are correct me if i'm wrong, send the document to the americans, which basically sets out what they would like america or nature to do which is take this concept, this idea, this notion that ukraine could be a new nature member off the table. that's all we have to do. does seem like we look at it now. it doesn't seem like a big deal now,

because actually it's already off the table. so that gives you an idea of just how simple, how, you know, how light it be off. the wall is clearly this administration from the very, very beginning. you claim war and it's so i, so my even goes far to say is that they actually planned it. i mean, when you know something is about to happen and you sit back and prepare yourself for it so that you profit on every level and that was really by the stone. you know, he's not this idea into the longer us it's interesting and i can remember i'm using my own words. this program is it? yes, this was a trap in the russians fell for it. okay. no other choice, however, i would say glen then, but by setting this trap, nato is set a trap for itself because everything it martin is right. this is very well that. remember the same players were in the and the obama administration. they just to go for here break, and then as soon as they got back into power, they went right back with the interest them. and ukraine was one of them here. but

you know, the, the, the assumption that the rest of the economy would collapse to be an uprising me regime. dave, that was all part of it too. ok. that didn't happen. and i think that's the point that they find themselves in here. and what is inexplicable for me and again, i want to go back to it. zelinski is volunteering their own people. ok. you know, for the us, you know, empty their storage, you know, stocks and all that. that's all nice and fine print money and you know, until the cows come home, but giving up your own people and it's truly extraordinary. go ahead. last. no, it is dreadful. and i had to search quickest. wanna add something on the german aspect. i mean, me imagine being a germ politician or journalist. no, you know, it does no evidence that russia blew up. it's on pipelines. they never met incense and also the admitted there. so evidence, and yet you have to refer to russian playbook or some propaganda. wild americans, top official on the other side, lundy, sending us celebrating the destruction of the pipeline. you have to sit there and pretend it. no, no, it's just propaganda thrush. it must be

a horrible situation to be in and, and in the can't, you know, report on facts either. so, but no, i agree that's not home syndrome. i mean they're, they're, they're, they're really capture, they, they did their, the politicians are captured, the media is captured. everybody knows the true. anyone is interested in the story, can figure it out pretty easily. we. yeah, i'm, i'm not a brain surgeon, but i mean all, everything that was laid out made sense to me. and i said from, you know, it's obviously who did it because who benefit from it. and that's all you ask ahead . well, wasn't, was been very open and, you know, for past due a 1020 years about a subjective of strike to sever the russian economy from the european, especially the russian from the german. because this is something you know, that the undermined america's role. and i think they with through sanctions and destruction, this pipeline to be quite successful at it. but the problem is, are you assess restored? is hedge a monic role? it's block discipline, if you will, on in europe. know that we were all now bending to washington. but that of the

problem of this whole thing was the world is no longer western centric to search all parts of the rest of the world. so in russia, sending us energy in the, not even to its, its allies, ohio opposed america. but even india, they were non existent, oil supplies to india, only a year ago. now they're the biggest supplier of crude oil to india, 20 percent, or something it is, is crazy. and now of course, how are you going to wrestle india away from russian either getting closer and closer. it might be problematic to put a pushed indians against china because the interests of china in india alone has changed so much. now. i think yes, the use restored hadron in europe, but they have growing multiplier than the rest of the russ aurora. that is the topic for another program. okay. would run out of time. your fascinating discussion yet, although i think my guess an awesome ended marika, and i want to thank our viewers for watching as he or ne, see you next time remember ah ah,

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