the hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered in peter logo. we were told it was one of those mysteries of the ages. this is how the west described the destruction of the north stream pipelines. then came along veteran investigative journalist, seymour hersh. he tells us differently and in great detail. indeed, the bye didn't ministration led the way destroying this civilian infrastructure. the discuss these issues any more and joined by my guest, glen deason in our slow he is a professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as author of the book, great power politics in the 4th industrial revolution. and in mirror cash, we cross the martin j. he is an award winning journalist and commentator for a gentleman cross i girls and effects. that means you can jump in anytime you want . and i always appreciate it, but it's good to go and i'll slow. so we came,

i see more hearse came out with his report, his investigative reporting on the, the ending of the north stream pipelines ending very much like what biden said, setting next to the, the german chancellor. so glen, i mean this is supposed to be a great mystery, but it's not really. it might be great of a mystery because when after it happened, there was very little bit talk about it. and when someone like seymour hersh, legendary journalist writes about it, it's completely dismissed and hardly reported on your thoughts. well, this is sam, a key problem or with the how media limits the debate. i mean is a good. you can give the illusion of having a open democratic debate if you only narrow the scope of what's allowed to be discussed. so wasa draw show or was it a mystery? as long as you have a vibrant debate within that scope a, it ceased to give dilution but, but again, it should have been if they would have come as a big surprise for a, for a, for others pick. it cost us, you mentioned washington for years. you know,

they tried to stop this project to condemn the germans for building it. they've been sanctioned dear pin companies for building it, you know, in the name of protecting our energy security. and we have the rand report or, or to for the u. s. army say on how to weaken and extend russia and again, in terms of energy, it said the 1st step was to stop nor stream to, you know, he had the pompei you, i said the will do everything we can to stop it. i there so see sure you knew it, i think and all it is all oh, all open source. yeah. open source in newland as well said at the, you know, we will find the way of stopping this is, you know, tom caught news to word, we're gonna kill north stream to let it rust beneath the baltic. and of course, this is what a biden oswell city was very opened in a standing next to the german chancellor saying, if russia goes in to you, cranial will stop it. and no matter what and, and how are you going to do this? the journalist southwell trust us, we can do it to so it's, it's a, it's a,

you know, this a mountain of evidence there that they wanted to do it. and after it was blown up, you had, you know, 1st of all, the polish for a previous foreign minister at other 2 psychologist case, or i think thank you you a say in just remove any doubt to posted a picture of the exploded pipeline. and then you had the little anthony blink, and coming out, send me this thing. this is a tremendous honor. unity. now maybe we can finally replace the russian energy and with american. and again that only recently victoria who and came out once again. and i'm trying to call her back, she made it very clear that she and the united states administration were very gratified that nordstrom now was uncle metal at the bottom of the sea. so if this was an open debate or a trial, you would have some very strong evidence say that perhaps you didn't even mention the details of the marshes article you gave all the open source here and then we

have his article kind of connect. so let me go to mark martin here in front of me. it's kind of like an inverted o j. simpson case. ok oj was let off. ok fine. he didn't kill his ex wife and her boyfriend. then who did? i mean, this is the us and its allies will dismisses the medium. we'll talk about it. so if it's what see my hearse? probably one of the greatest living journalists of our time. if he's wrong than who did do it, there is no interest in that either. mark just goes completely against the narrative which has been fed to the job this year. nobody wants to go there. nobody wants to deal in nuances. and i don't know about the reference to oj, i'm worried sema, she's going to end up driving across america on live tv, with people chasing him. because i think he's, he's heading towards a massive character assassination. i can't imagine wester's already. yeah. it's already started. it's already started, you know, don't be surprised if they find child is left already settled. this taxes are repeat up an ex wife or,

or is enrolled in criminal gangs or anything that's possible. but the story isn't ethic piece investor journalism. it really stunning in this detail in as colleges in just every paragraph is endorsed as various lives, but so it just throws up so many extraordinary questions. extraordinary. as a journalist has been covering a lot of these countries that are really victims of u. s. intervention. how oil oil pipelines just keeps on coming up again and again. and again, when you look at using sure, it's something to do with try to find for you over a cheap oil and is nearly always to do with pipelines even have guns done. was actually a story about george w bush, george. so it was senior trying to nail huge energy deal for a california company trying to build a pipeline right across the country and negotiating with each other. in the late nineties, it was all about oil and pipeline. and again,

it's the same story with where the ukraine, what, what this proves, the incredible piece of journals improves beyond any doubt is the americans, the by the ministration light and light and light. and everything that we see on the hear from mainstream media is just a huge light. and it was the you talked about the reference to, to our there was a mystery. this was a new york times. this was some tabloid, you haven't heard. you can, it was a new york times reporter, the biggest giant elfaire an imprint today. so you know, android, as even today, i just refer to single hershey's article as a broke. let me think about that. he's rattle the establishment, you know, with this page, but he rattled them, you know, you've been rattling them since the me line massacre. ok. yes, he didn't publish his his work on some stack because he's been so discriminated against because he annoys the b. it says, well, calling it a blog again. glenn,

you're in norway. norway is implicated in his investigation. here was no, we didn't media and the government here. well, one of the newspapers only had one word in the title, which is nonsense. but it's kind of a, well, it is very dismissive and i think it's unfortunate because i think for media they, they really need don't ask 2 questions. is this true? that's what they have to pursue. and they said of public interest. now, the truth aspect in that would require them to do some journalism and follow up on this leads and of course of a public interest. but who are the journalist no longer asked status question or other, if you look in the reporting, the only question i seem to ask is, will this information assist nato or russia? and if it's enough, the favoring the russian narrative, then suddenly it goes on the memory hold. and is there unfortunate because i think a lot of this journalist, they think they're doing us a favor by skewing all the reporting. but at the end of the day, you know, the lose people losing trust in me then also to taking us down the very dangerous

path, you know, to source of possible nuclear war. so i don't think they, they thought this a morales through and so, so again, a lot of them are the comments were when they were people make arguments which, you know, or doesn't matter how much fact to rooted in it, people assess, well, does it lean towards favoring russia or nato, if it seems something that russia, then they always go after the person that don't addressed argument. so seymour hersh, you know, how is the reporting media now? while he's a former investigative journalist, apparently not a whore. he's old. he might be seen nile. he's accused of being a put in ist, and of course web posting this in a blog. and because he's seen over the hill, that is one of the most respected investigative journalists of our time. not only in revealing this massacre of me line vietnam in the sixty's, but also the upgrade, but prison scandal into 2009. surely, he deserves his case. the serfs to be heard and if egg and maybe he is wrong,

maybe over the hill. but this, the weakness of the paper i would say was that is based on, on the, on the source which can be confirmed. on the other hand, the strength is smarter. pointed out a huge amount of details. you know, this is a lot to follow up and we don't have to take her word as gospel, but surely there's a lot. journalists should get all this information a lot too much on to, let's see where this goes. but again, if it goes towards the point we're seeing a weakening, the nato and washing narrative, we don't want to follow this path. and again, it's, yeah, i think it's a disgrace. it but martin, i'm glad that the in the elementary detail is brought up when i read it, i just thought this was, i mean if this is a fake story or he invested in norman, i'm an expert in making up those details there. but with martin when it would, it's important to understand, i think that again,

we went over the open source information here. then we have this investigative journalism and they, they, they fall into each other just perfectly mean that i think both the view and our viewers were, they were reading the article, realized, oh, okay, that's it. that piece there. that makes sense because we knew this in advance. i mean, there's no refuting of facts. there's just a refuting of him. yeah, it's become, will become intensely personalized. it will be able about him. but i just, i just some googling before one and i noticed that the story is being picked up quite a lot around the world. so in this situation, a certain point, the american journalists are almost obliged to actually follow up and actually report the reported missing this will probably happen in the next couple of weeks. folks are using it as a way of attacking the by the ministration that's supposed to be expected. i take, which i would take glenn's point to talk about the source. i think it was more than one source if i remember looking at again. but i think there were

a couple of sources that as a gentleness, you know, we, we tend to look at the tiny details. and we notice that there is a certain resonance. and the article of business from these sources who tend to seem to be owned by them. so, you know, there is a real intelligence community takes nothing more than a president who is sloppy and indiscreet with operations that are undergoing are about one to go. and a few sideswiped was quite shocked about the statements by made about the under secretary statements as well. you know, it was all very indiscreet. so i think that's important. but for me, their article really does throw up some incredibly important questions, isn't germany then just american? you know, that's exactly what i want to ask both of you have a glenn. i mean, i don't read 0 and i tell, you know, i can just jump into the russian and the german media sphere. but from what i can gather, it's been a very muted reaction by them. i mean,

and they're the biggest victims and all of this will just have to sit and suck it up when yeah, well they're taking another one on the chin. i guess i'm not saying i read golf my germany, it's a high school level, so i don't brush too much about about it for meeting spiegel and all that put it into for a new section. is there pipeline, by the way, and i can refer to, you know, a russian allegations and in on that they're on del, too much into the, to the specific accusations but, but again, it's a, it's, i think shorts is becoming a bit humiliated casino. you have this pipeline and kind of run those that the united states, at least as the, has been behind this. i really it how much more evidence do we need from it, sir? officials, but also it's a continuation of this tank issue. obviously us pressure them into sending the lea apart, tanks and the u. s. not going to say there sunday abrams probably or at least not for another year or so, but i'm guessing it was only to pressure them so they can no notice how they're being manipulated. and pressured, and a lot of german officials are getting quite oh,

isn't that on the thought hold that thought we have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on some really safe with archy ah. the jagger's archipelago coma the g o. san diego garcia, the largest island in the archipelago is now the location of a very large u. s. military base. you get given met a u. s. government to make a military base and just deported all of douglas and people from their country. so they called return back on the island. no, but we are fighting. that's why i'm real fighting for the right. so i,

we do not consider that the right to self determination actually applies to the general. since i don't the question of self determination, the legal advice we have received is actually the chic options. we're not at all, not a people. for me, it's time to move on and see what we can do. a full become the said community to return back home knowledge support from the united nation high commission advocate, united michelle. don't care about checklists and people who is the aggressor today. i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions today. russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. and um, but those constantly growing, i figure which of the problem was to call sure, as we speak on the, when you're sitting in the morning the were wish you were banding all imports of russian oil and gas news. i know they said she opened with info. let me know when did you have regarding joe biden,

imposing these sanctions on russia, you know, has destroyed the american economy. so there's your boomerang. ah, welcome back. are all things are considered peter bell? this is the home addition to remind you, we're discussing some real this the, the well, let's go back to martin america. let me in looking at the reaction to it or non reaction to this story. if there's a certain service that i get from the official american legacy media, is that yeah, well, so what we can do, it may be, this kind of impunity is and plus the,

they watching the germans particularly show being humiliated. they that, that mission accomplished. okay. i mean, they are doing everything. glenn said he took another one on the cheek. i mean, is there any, i don't know how many kicks he has, keeps getting hit over and over and over again. so, i mean, you know, the fact that the germans are being humiliated again, and it tells people to get in line, you know, where the unity has lots of bar go ahead. we're again, a wonder how much immunization shoes can also wonder what actually happened in the white house. 3 weeks before nuclear war started. when, when shoot a button was a deal struck then by to say, look, you know, we're going to go ahead and blow up anyway, so you might as well get on board. where did he, she shows, did he, did he suggest that it was an option. we might lately to look at, i mean, the interesting thing is the time life, you know, and, and, and hers just as really laid this out briefly. and it makes the point, again,

again, again, which is going to be very hard for us journalist to completely ignore this, you know, by them basically prepared himself or spread the administration from almost they want momus january, 2021 to blow these pipes. charlie's pipelines, you know, was always considered, reflect, that was considered a stretch to america's ability to throw his weight around in europe. the americans are always intimidated and vexed by germany as dependency on cheap gas from russia . so the thinking was, we can't get them on board to actually go ahead with a war in ukraine. we need to do something which actually pushes the way of relying . so they have 2 choices. i think it's actually amazing. i mean, what is it, what are we actually talking about in terms of international law? we're talking about international terrorism, an active international terrorism. i think by the grace of god, the fact that 49. okay, well civilian infrastructure in international waters or in the air space is fair

game know their game. so what can we expect campaign? would it be realistic? would it be reasonable to assume some sort of response for the russians? well i, i absolutely think so, and i think there's always reciprocity, but it's a symmetric goal be a time in place of their choosing here. glenn, in the broader scheme of things here, there are always people talking about there needs to be a cease fire that needs to be negotiated, end of this. but if you have an administration which, you know, the, the, the investigative integrity that the seem, or her springs to this here mean the, or what are the russian supposed to say? i meaning if you deny something that is patently obvious, all of the great, the minute process, all the things you've been deployed is every step of the way. but now you're going to be honest with us. it doesn't work that way. no,

but it must have been with us matter cause i think it it is s as a doesn't i happened to cost a de media again, as i mentioned, they don't really report on that a we have the wisdom minsk agreement or 7 years of sabotaging it's very openly the u. s. and u k especially and, and also never in reporting even when soleski was saying, we're not gonna follow this anymore. there are the media still reports that while rush us to one, not implementing it in the end of the texas. they're black and white so, so nonsense. and even now after rush and they did, you have, you know, the israeli prime minister going out for me from mr. bennett actually saying listen, it the ukrainians wanted to sort of piece agreement that the russians wanted it. this is early march or we, we, we could have done it, but the, the west said no, especially u. s. and you k, they wanted to continue this to smash potent did if for some opportune to fight approx a war against them. so, you know, no matter what does matter what the ukrainians wanted, that's, that's why they put the block down then they, they, sir ellis are pushed out as negotiated. the turks take over the turkish foreign

minister says the same thing. there. we were close a deal both sides wanted it, and then the west, cept in the said no, we want to fight russian up with this ukranian so. so no matter what the ukrainians want will will continue. and the heels of this reports by the she on a hill and her colleague in a foreign affairs. this are people who are top in the intelligence in network and us and also democratic kid, not leaders, but they are high up in the democratic party. they also wrote to foreign affairs. yeah, they were close to an agreement. and what russia most important for it wanted only for ukraine to commit the self, not to taking more nato and us weapons on the russian borders desolate russia wanted ukraine wanted, it's territory back. so there were very close to deal, and then what's happened them here since then the and, and the british steps in and offer all the weapons in the world if, if their 5th and older men to the front, that's what mitch mcconnell said as well is all nice and well and down to this old idea of you know, how brave ukrainians are, but this is ultimately about american interest. we have to knock out the rush.

that's our goal. lindsa green saying the same thing. this is a great deal for us to. we've promised lensky would provide all the weapons in the world, and he just has to send all his men the fight to the last man. that's his word, fight down to the last ukrainian. and then all of this goes under the umbrella of we want to help them, like we have screwed over the ukrainians from day one. i'll just for the language, but we did this and then we call it helping a funny, so cynical and it's disgusting. it's horrible. well, you know, martin, i mean future historian, so maybe explain to his wife there's a lindsey getting a saying, yeah, we'll sacrifice our people. that's really truly extorted. good point. this is absent from the media. look, you know, you have the israel, the premise sitting there. thing if word by word is no denial afterwards and the media sees it. and if that is true, yes. is it the interest of the public if will a publish at no cost to strengthen the russian arthur?

so it disappears. and that's what i mean. the reality no longer really matters if you, if you don't want to report them anything. and so it's, it's a 3rd situation, and it's very interesting. and when you get again, you know, this propaganda machine, you know, protecting ukraine sovereignty while the u. s. has no interest in protecting its own southern border, but that's another topic for the program. but i mean, you know, talking about, you know, ukraine's international standing an existence here. but what the destruction of the pipelines is basically telling germany you have no sovereignty in any sense of the word, we will determine your interest. ok, and we will act upon them particularly when they're not in your interest. mar. yeah, i'm going back to glenn's point. the thing is that, so you're true. you know, everything is, well, the evidence that you need to look for is already there already on the net or sort of been recorded is youtube. it's there for people to see. and the journalist

a just choosing not to see it. it wasn't just that the storks and launch, i think, which, you know, seem to have gone to the 11th hour where both sides because we agreed which was covered by the americans and british. it was actually worse than that. if you look at the timeline and go back to biden's an alteration just before i think in december 2020, the russians are correct me if i'm wrong, send the document to the americans, which basically sets out what they would like america or nature to do which is take this concept, this idea, this notion that ukraine could be a new native member off to tell you, but that's all we have to do and we look at it now. it doesn't seem like a big deal now because actually it's already off the table. so that gives you an idea of just how simple, how oh, you know, how light it be off the wall is clearly this administration from the very, very beginning. you couldn't war and it's so it's on my even goes far to say is that they actually planned that. i mean, when you know something is about to happen and you sit back and prepare yourself

for it so that you profit on every level. and that's what really biden's don't, you know, he's not this idea in so long grass. it's interesting. i mean, i can remember i'm using my own words. this program is it? yes, this was a trap and the russians fell for it. okay. no other choice, however, i would say glen then, but by setting this trap, nato is set a trap for itself because everything it martin is right. this is very well planned out. remember the same players were in the, in the obama administration. they just to go for here break, and then as soon as they got back into power, they went right back with the interest them. and ukraine was one of them here. but you know, the, the, the assumption that the rest of the economy would collapse to be an uprising and be seen. that was all part of it too. ok. that didn't happen. and i think that's the point that they find themselves in here. and what, what is it explicable for me? and again, i want to go back to the zelinski and volunteering their own people. ok. you know,

for the us, you know, empty their storage, you know, stocks and all that. that's all nice and fine print money and you know, until the cows come home, but giving up your own people. it's truly extraordinary. go ahead. last. no, it is dreadful. and i had to sir, quickly wanna add something on the german aspect. i mean, me imagine being a germ politician or journalist now, you know, it does no evidence that russia blew up its own pipeline. they never made incense, and also they admitted there. so evidence, and yet you have to refer to russian playbook or some propaganda. wild americans, top official, know there's atlantic sending us celebrating the destruction of the pipeline. you have to sit there and pretend it in. no, no, it's just propaganda thrust. it must be a horrible situation of in and, and in the concert you know, report on facts either. so, but no, i agree. it's not home syndrome. i mean they're, they're, they're, they're really capture, they, they did their, the politicians are captured, the media is captured. everybody knows the true. anyone is interested in the story,

can figure it out pretty easily. we. yeah, i'm, i'm not a brain surgeon, but i mean all, everything that was laid out made sense to me and i said from, you know, it's obviously who did it because who benefit from it? that's all you ask ahead. well, wasn't, was been very open up. you know, for past due a 1020 years about his objective of trying to sever the russian economy from the european, especially the russian from the german. because this is something you know, that would undermine the america's role. and i think they with through sanctions and destruction, this pipeline to be quite successful at it. but the problem is, are you with us restored? is hedge a monic role? it's blocked discipline, if you will, on in europe. know that we were all now bending to washington, but that of the problem of this whole thing was the world is no longer western centric to suit all parts of the rest of the world. so in russia, sending this energy in and not even to its, its allies will hit or oppose america, but even india, they were non existent. oil supplies to india only a year ago. now they're the biggest supplier of crude oil to india, 20 percent,

or something. it is, is crazy. and now of course, how are you going to wrestle india away from rush another, getting closer and closer it might be problematic to put it pushed indians against china because the interest of china in india alone has changed so much. now i think yes, the us restore hadron in europe, but they have growing multiplier than the rest of the russ arroyo. that is the topic for another program. okay. would run out of time. your fascinating discussion, gentlemen, i think my guess and i'll slow ended marrakech, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here in arcade scene exam. remember prostate rules ah ah, at this hour, american and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm iraq, to free its people. and to defend the world from gray. with

food and medicines in supplies, and fleet with awe. every spring and summer, the melting optic snow reveals abandon machinery, millions of rusty barrels, and the detritus left by human expansion into this most inaccessible of territories . yep. and use the move. so take off my lot. that is a summer, but the law it it the bus, the biggest issue all in tears from clean arctic travel to heis island home to the

biggest pola station on the french, joseph land archipelago sierra. he asked me, but i lost my bosom more yet. we should so him is if it wouldn't be homeless, the nasa monro enough, but somebody with a sandwich. most of us so much you feel like a membership when you to a little boys of premier latrice, chico me at that of the optic pioneers main objective was to explore and conquer these harsh lands. they had no time to think about waste management now and legacy could remain for centuries. my choice of thought with want to pull on your scope with issue with the think i should do is, you know,

use his name and be good jail. it's amazing to me that how, how they fall, my mahash, the american journalist behind an investigation into the us role in the no history and pipelines last reveals the pressure he's facing from mainstream media to dine, low chic, restrict civilian and media access to the back of city of volunteer, most widely known as park new, russian forces advance and entrenched ukrainian positions. that lease is the board was position with the russian forces.