noon. 2 2 ah, the difficulty that national security whistleblowers face is not unique to the united states. other countries around the world treat their national security whistle blowers harshly. especially when those whistle blowers reveal evidence of war crimes. one of the best and most recent examples is from australia, where david mcbride, a former australian army attorney, is facing criminal charges because of his revelations that australian soldiers committed war crimes and crimes against humanity in afghanistan. mcbride, a decorated combat veteran, now faces the prospect of spending much of the rest of his life in prison. i'm john carry aku and you're watching the whistleblowers. ah. 2 2 david mcbride is one of those rare whistleblowers who did exactly what he was

trained to do when witnessing evidence of a crime. he went through his chain of command. but when his chain of command refused to do anything to investigate his allegations, he went to the media, the resulting outcry let to something called the brereton commission. led by major general justice paul brereton of new south wales who led an investigation into mcbride's allegations. not only did justice burton find that everything, david mcbride said was true. he recommended that no charges be filed for mcbride's decision to go to the media. and what was it that david mcbride alleged? he said that while he was serving in the australian army as an attorney, he saw that $25.00 australian soldiers were responsible for the cold blooded murder of 39 afghan civilians. the soldiers then planted weapons on the dead bodies in order to photograph evidence to justify the killings in something they called throw downs. david mcbride did the right thing. the bremerton commission says so the

australian media says so the australian public says so. so why does the government insist on prosecuting him? were joined by whistle blower. david mcbride. david, welcome to the show. so glad to have you. thank you very much, and i me, it's an honor. thank you. the pleasures ours. let's start at the beginning. you have a personal history of public service. you attended sidney university and then earned a 2nd degree at oxford. you joined the british army and served in germany before attending the elite royal military academy at sandhurst. you then commanded a platoon in northern ireland. after a period in the private sector, you returned to australia and you joined the army there. as an attorney, you then served 2 tours in afghanistan and earned a combat service metal. it was during your time in afghanistan that you saw evidence of war crimes. you reported those crimes through the proper channels and

then what happened? well, it was quite surprising up. i didn't want to know about it. no, quite clearly. i became the problem. and that is one of the things i guess it was a loss on. if you with what your recording is really bad, be. oh, good. i see you're according to probably already knew and i don't a boy you all you've done and reveal yourself as a problem. and um, i became a 100 and that was a, i guess it wasn't that surprising because i knew the leadership were involved. i knew the leadership, this could not have happened without the general's least having some idea of what was going on. and i had to my mind to little comply to those very same generals who had some idea of what was going on. so i had

a feeling it would go well. but i still as a lawyer, i knew that i had to my internal complaint. otherwise they would, i, you know, i really would be, i could go straight to gyle. i was quite surprised and you had had decided from the me dr. case. yes, i was quite surprised to find out county control. i thought that i would get a pedal back eventually, you know that some judicial figure would hear about it, or a, some senior retired military person would hear about it and they were going to patch man, so hang on. this is exactly the opposite of what we are men should be doing, but that never happened. and the problem is, is pretty day. i hear exactly right. in my own case out, when i 1st complained internally, i became known as the human rights guy. and a friend of mine came to me privately and said, you know, buddy, that's not

a compliment. they're not complimenting you when they call you the human rights guy . and indeed, after having led the capture of the 3rd ranking official in al qaeda, i was turned down for promotion. because they said at my promotion panel, i had demonstrated a shocking lack of commitment to counter terrorism. because i declined the torture training. so it's the same, yeah. the same situation that you went through, you go through your chain of command and it turns out it's your chain of command that either is committing the crime or covering up for the crime. so let me ask you this, the decision to go to the media must not have been an easy one if it wasn't in my own case when, when i decided to blow the whistle on the cia torture program. i couldn't go through channels because my channels had created the torture program. i couldn't even go to congress because congress had secretly authorized and funded the torture program. my only choice was the media. was that your calculation?

did you not get satisfaction from any of the official channels that you went through? it's exactly the same and i can't tell you how good it is. you made a heal story. i was like anywhere but. but as you know, and a guy asked me to say you on this to have a program because it's an extremely lonely road. yes, you're not still, you get a bacon. and to just to say someone else, i was the side that really see a sneed may son march. i should have been promoted to in the sense that i had completed all the things that you're meant to can be, you know, complaint. i mean, you don't get assigned to the special forces unless you all want to talk to 4 of us . and i had t toolboxes i've been recommended for marcia. you know, i had a very, very strong history in that. andrea, a commander of soldiers. it'll was odd which nobody was gone. i know i was an oxford university which no one dot on how to play publish. so all the things that

should have gotten promoted, but yeah, i am i annoying man. this sort of annoyed you. it wouldn't be not attacking, i guess if, if we always said where the bad guys, you know, we don't care. max rice, we are chairman along. you know, we just want a week and i am an ex judge, but we were a toil day and day out about the terrible things that happened. and you saw the how people didn't stand up and separately. yeah. about how terrible the losses were about how the law was so important and act really stuck in my strike to say, hang on. you can't have it both ways. you cannot beat us around the head with doing the right thing. and then when i try to do the right snake, you try to put me jail the organization. good. do that, is it very evil that i was a criminal honors? help us understand the timeline here. you reported your findings to your superiors . years before going for the media,

was it only after going to the media that the burton commission began investigating your findings? yeah, yeah. i thought connected, but the i was the 1st person to start mikey white's internally. and i guess, i think what is even more shocking in australia, i don't know how long you to gaming your interest and i used always. one of the things i used to hold up was the watergate scandal and, and, but i say we're an old president's been lease of a sort of things which i thought all, well that's your, that's what i'm looking for. i had to get it all to realize that there was a fair bit of democrats versus republicans and on those things, right? rather than just rather than just misses the right thing to do and on. but it was quite naive in australia, but it was hard to get media interest. this was to make if you had a story about us all to writing someone or a story about a i single and killing of

a non entity. you might get it to run by a story which is big about generals and probably of ministers. politicians involved in delaware to touch it because they are. and unfortunately, i think we've had media regressive media pollution in the now the major media companies are very corporatized. i know they never run a water guided talk storage dye because they're with the media companies are selling day, but the government, they get tax concessions that rely on the government to survive and running. a really big story which even it stopped the whole government. your guys to, to say key people in the government had, i did a criminal why i just didn't want to know and name and even the. busy journalist i saw was the sort of australian equivalent of the in the state of woodward. and even

he, he was happy to run a sort of bad soldiers story. but he wasn't get any, did eventually run that. but he. busy wasn't really and he was already on that as a bad government story. that was, that was a bit too hot. i didn't handle, i want to ask you about justice bremerton. his conclusions really were quite dramatic. he found that everything that you had said had been true. he found that war crimes had been committed. he noted that none of the soldiers implicated in the murders of civilians had been prosecuted. and then he urged that you not be charged with any crime. why then has the australian government been so adamant in pursuing you? it seems that with public pressure and with a new government in canberra, you would be rewarded rather than prosecuted. what happened i think probably a bit like your case. a problem in beginning people realize on

astray here is a member of someone in cold. well, you know, well the 5 i that's right. and as we are members will make a, will this a, there is a, i am just paying it as a sort of a, to me, it was stacked. if you like it, you don't really care with the raw. busy and i guess they are worried if i played in this city, chicago, and guy in the series that a thing they don't know how many more mcbride's there are out there. i believe they probably said the same to you. this is will be how they just fun, prosecuted year to decide are off. we let him all, how many more going to come, or he's going to come out. exactly right. and who wills? who else is gonna end up at giles, you know, we need to stop on this, die for the future. as like a science. i mean that no one has really prosecuted a, for a scientist. revelation since and i can't really, it's not really

a matter of revenge it's, it's a matter of we, we can't afford this to happen in the future because of everybody finds out how we do out matches tricks. we are in trouble, and i see it's because now that the u. s. controls strider, i'm certainly for national security matters. and the usaa saying you've got to make an example of this guy, because if this guy gets out more about a songy, what about what about assigns to point 0? that's right. we need to, we need to crush these guys. we need to sort of put a head on, on polls outside d m, the, for us to say don't cross us. it doesn't matter. when do you think you're right? you will lose, you know? yeah. they said these are all feet above your pike, right? the haven't charging what is result of her and, ah, but on want beginning a child not if it makes sense, you know, it is a media once i sort of, you know,

beholden to the gallery. but someone would be saying, you know, in the 1970s washington has come on will be, this is wrong. that's right. ok. and then i wouldn't get away with that, but unfortunately, tons of change. i think now the public as you say, the public are on saw. busy and now my best weapon, it seems when we had an initial hearing, i used to look at the, the us hearings of the ones that you had to go circ and say, oh my god, no that's, i will never win in that kind of hearing. but at least on chance and strategy, because i've got a public interest defense to sign this information is in the public interest. and the government admitted it was the public interest storing because they ended up putting out a statement saying, we're not gonna charge the id, say, journalists to read a story because it was a public story. ok. now that means is kids get a sandwich just to public it story. so i thought i was going to win, but unfortunately they have invoke the old national security canada now right on

with the always do the room the ring or is it from america away? here i was the q that i could somehow not to get your legal price is farrah. the opposite has happened. and while we're not even allowed to sign on the risk of getting arrested for it, we just have to say in mutual terms out, international powers ever said that the information that i want to use in my to face is too dangerous. even sure, judge speak, that's what they always do. all they do and they walk into court and they say national security and they try to shut down your defense. they try to, to prohibit you from using exactly the information that you need to justify your righteous actions. david, please stay with us. we have to take a commercial break. you're watching the whistleblowers, we're going to take a short break, and then we're going to come back for more of our conversation with australian whistleblower david mcbride. stay tuned. 2

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2 ah, we're speaking with australian national security whistleblower david mcbride, who revealed evidence of war crimes committed by australian troops in afghanistan and is being prosecuted for his revelations. david, i've seen it in both the australian press and in the british press that you have widespread support, not just from average people and from peace activists, but from attorneys, and elected officials in both countries who say that you are an example of the kind of national security whistleblower who should be lauded for his revelations. what is it that the australian government is stuck on? is it that the information that you gave to media was technically classified? is that what this is about? i think that is trying to make an example of me. yeah. i don't. i say that. yes, that's what their argument is. but if you drill down into it, it doesn't make sense. this is a, this is a, most of the stuff that i did to the priest was simply reports of

a people getting saw in afghanistan on a mountain, you know, over 10 years ago. now it's a waterloo. we publicly knowledge. obviously we could, we are not lot, mike pretending we were there. ah, it had a lot of books written about it is new movies about it is better to for my syntax by a famous, an equivalent of a middle of all when i was a kid to be a war criminal and he got by a news type and he said them and subsequently i buy, bought out all witnesses, all the specials witnesses, and they were discussed in in court apartment. the names of the names were protected like special forces operation, but they but what went on has already been discussed in court. and none of the information in my case is any, any more serious than that i do. nothing is about any kind of weapons colonel

white's capabilities. it's all. busy about who's shot, who on a mountain in afghanistan, and you knew what? and when they knew it, ah, that's on national security. that's national embarrassed. and they are trying to say, oh, it's so super, super secret, but it doesn't make sense because it's all been published already. not and completely so. but what are the problems that you've got a report discussed if i just insist to they the judge? oh no, we caught on tape and said it was saw 6 of the secret is not much to charge. he did i, he caught in sy, well ah shoot, you know, can you need to prove that to me? doesn't sound some secret. it doesn't sound like things we don't already know. right. i just keep insisting saying, we caught him explained to want started so, so important. i mean, we weren't even released. this is how pathetic striders we want, even were less details of the fact that we were involved in the crew in chile,

which is so kinda shy roland, i was in the 70. wow. we and the murphy american, even the, even the c i, a parent had, have released some sort of data. yes. out. that's free. that's truth. the any stride is what is trans want in a 50 years light out? well, i know not to say good, you know, that affects us and it's pretty pathetic and they just using as a weapon and it's a weapon. i think that they just angry um, but i also saw that a site that's another dentist i sense of guilt that on thy cross may in the sense and they broke all of us to that country, to the law, to ethics. what to do to renew entry on a by broke the law is not that i care about that. i said i brought it there, bit rules that an extent that if they break the longest i taught murders,

are they going to be outed? um, they just this sort of petty, i pay he bureaucrats on a mission of revenge. and then using the law as an excuse to get his income. david, your attorneys and others say that it is unfathomable, that with all the information that is finally made it into the public domain. that you're still going through the nightmare of a trial. justice burton wrote this quote, perhaps the single most effective indication that there is a commitment to cultural reform is the demons ation. that those who have been instrumental in the exposure of misconduct, or are known to have acted with propriety and probity, are regarded as role models on quote. that seems crystal clear to me and it sounds like a good defense. so where do you think this case goes from here? oh, i think i'm going to draw it off the go. be convicted i. i think it because once you,

you, if you get to control what evidence goes in, you will always win and out for me. and i, even though they by enemies die all its own national security, its own national security. occasionally they say something is national security, which sells their case and doesn't know my case. just got a fee in act. they really are what they did. a terrible thing is, are they going to get away with it? i think what they're not going to get away with is 40 main job. 20 is because the public and people around the world are getting a really, is absolutely embarrassment for the western world. corporate level war on terror was killed a 1000000 table and a widget torture and we were to lot and, and there were so many scenes. busy wrong, we describe ourselves and you know,

there's a couple of people that a guy and a child, you'd be one of them on one of them and, and no one who actually deal a really bad fix is guided or even had the korean slot. right. and mcbride is going to got a job like it was all he's for that's. that's why i going to public again. yeah, david and okay. your case is so well known. have you had the support of whistleblower organizations in australia or even abroad? have you, have you been able to get some help from them to get your sight of the story into the public eye? where else as your course support come from is every day a boy had had with the blows the poor guy. you would have found the same whenever he saw myself as it was, but you don't really out of it. it's kind of a funny thing, you know, on what you know can bowman, this was a complex. but when you, when you made him, of course they're all really good people and they just like you and that nice actually help by case quite a bit girls than you what might have been the same if they can single you out that

they will paint you as you describe so yes jubal per cent of but he was a whistle blower to go the whistle on the banking system in australia. and it was a role commission, a role commission shadow. the banking system was just as he said, kindly, corrupt i was a whistleblower on me. i'm big do money laundering and gambling. i'm a guy be like, man said that all sorts of rules about how to avoid money laundering in sina isn't it cetera. and he said, went on following any of them, it's a joke and a guy and he's been proved to be right. ah. and i, who together we have strong, there was another guy who was a detective, and he would, guy like me, had an impeccable record as a detective. and he said he exposed the cover up of insta, cheer, sexual abuse. in a lot of institutional hudson shogun co,

paul and he and he was pretty right. we had a role committed. yeah, very for doc stuff and not just not just the original abuse to the fact that senior figures in the government, a mechanistic messiah, or actually actively involved in covering it up on that it's pretty disturbing. now both together with straw it you know, and that's really helps people, the average person's really they're all making it up. they're all bad people. busy and so totally and there was another guy, but at cleary like scientists were dropped against him and he did the same thing. he, he exposed the fact and australian security services. i know the al, i see i quit was when bugged. another country's offices, not for any strategic military benefit, but to actually give the information to it on a strident vice oil company. so you know, company could make the products and he got can beat it. you know, the, the supply got to make to them is like really and he was like he can use their

secret security services for commercial advantage. and he was one of them, joe. and i said, actually, by say, the judge said huh. the secure service and kill people, a totally legally and the only person ever get got child is abuse. now that's always the wrong. and eventually that the charges against the lawyer who helped bring that to life were draws. but it shows up. and this is, something's not roy ashley, i sat astride. i think there are so many of us pointing things out. i do get more people scared. i mean, all, quite rightly the government's tactics working a lot of stories, journalists to, we love with the blog stories that they chilled because people are scared. and so the government's tactics working in some ways. and that's why it's so important for me to keep a small, i'm a fight to made it look like um, odd and not getting me down. i cannot ready to go into court, a broken man,

staggering, deny, looking sick. they would love that. i would love me to commit suicide out of oppression. ah, they, i would actually uncalled champagne balls if i committed so that would less love it by and that kind of people passed. so determined to bring change this salaries and they, you know, their lunch money that they will, they will drive me much longer to, to national it's, you know, they, they don't care with a number that a father. that is how you know to speak of all these astray, not bureaucrats. ah, well, but i have to keep small because i'm an example to, i'll be, i sort of will come off. yes. yeah. that's independent of that on the seller to point you. she said, you know, you didn't consider yourself to be a whistleblower. i said, i said the same thing. you're the poster boy for whistleblowers. and so we want to wish you the very, very best of luck, david mcbride. thank you so much for joining us. that's all we have for you today.

i'm john kerry aku and this has been the whistleblowers. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah ah at the end of the 18th century, britain began the illegal opium trade in china. this hard drug causing addiction and literally destroying the human body became a gold mine for business men from the foggy albion. however, the ruling chinese jing dynasty tried to resist and to stop the illegal trade, which provoked the wrath of the london business community. in 1840 without

a declaration of war, the english fleet began to seize and plunder chinese coastal forts. the poorly armed and morally drained chinese army was unable to provide adequate resistance. the jing empire was forced to hand hong kong over to england and open its boards for trading the lethal goods. in 1856, france and the united states joined in the robbery of china. the anglo french troops defeated the chinese occupied beijing, and committed an unprecedented robbery. destroyed and blundered the wealth of the un mean you and palace. the defeat of the jing dynasty in the jew opium wars led to the transformation of the celestial empire into a semi colony of european states and started its age of humiliation. and the sale of opium took on colossal proportions and led to the horrible death of millions of

ordinary chinese. ah ah, the president of the united states would rather let germany freeze, then let it stop supporting you've grained. that's according to award winning american journalist seymour hersh, who earlier reveal the u. s. plot to bluffton street gas pipeline. a and israel soldier is jailed for 10 days after assaulting a palestinian human rights activists during a media interview. we hear from a victim of the class when i ask you to leave the do delete the video, the soldier the dean be.