[000:00:00;00] a ah o. 2 2 the difficulty that national security whistleblowers face is not unique to the united states. other countries around the world treat their national security whistle blowers harshly. especially when those whistle blowers reveal evidence of war crimes. one of the best and most recent examples is from australia, where david mcbride, a former australian army attorney,

is facing criminal charges because of his revelations that australian soldiers committed war crimes and crimes against humanity in afghanistan. mcbride decorated combat veteran now faces the prospect of spending much of the rest of his life in prison. i'm john kerry aku and you're watching the whistleblowers. ah. 2 david mcbride is one of those rare whistleblowers who did exactly what he was trained to do when witnessing evidence of a crime. he went through his chain of command. but when his chain of command refused to do anything to investigate his allegations, he went to the media, the resulting outcry let to something called the breton commission, led by major general justice paul breton of new south wales, who led an investigation into mcbride's allegations. not only did justice burton find that everything,

david mcbride said was true. he recommended that no charges be filed for mcbride's decision to go to the media. and what was it that david mcbride alleged? he said that while he was serving in the australian army as an attorney, he saw that $25.00 australian soldiers were responsible for the cold blooded murder of 39 afghan civilians. the soldiers then planted weapons on the dead bodies in order to photograph evidence to justify the killings in something they called throw downs. david mcbride did the right thing. the burton commission says, so the australian media says so the australian public says so. so why does the government insist on prosecuting him? were joined by whistleblower. david mcbride. david, welcome to the show. so glad to have you. thank you very much sherry. it's an honor . thank you. the pleasures ours. let's start at the beginning. you have a personal history of public service. you attended sidney university and then earned

a 2nd degree at oxford. you joined the british army and served in germany before attending the elite royal military academy at sandhurst. you then commanded a platoon in northern ireland. after a period in the private sector, you returned to australia and you joined the army there. as an attorney, you then served 2 tours in afghanistan and earned a combat service metal. it was during your time in afghanistan that you saw evidence of war crimes. you reported those crimes through the proper channels and then what happened? well, it was quite a surprising up. i didn't want to know about it now. quite clearly, i became the problem. and that is one of the things i guess it was a lot of fun. if you with what your recording is really bad,

be oh good. i see your according to probably already knew and i don't boil you. all you've done is reveal yourself as a problem. and um, i became a 100 and that was a, i guess it was not surprising because i knew the leadership were involved. i knew the leadership. this could not have happened without the general's least having some idea of what was going on. and i had to make my internal complaint to those very same generals who had some idea of what was going on. so i had a feeling it would go well. but i still as a lawyer, i knew that i had to my internal complaint. otherwise they would, i, you know, i really would be, i could go straight to gyle. i was quite surprised and you had had the same problem dr. case. yes, i was quite surprised to find out. and the problem was i thought that i would get

a pedal back eventually. you know that some judicial figure would hear about it or a some see her retired military person would hear about it and they were going to patch been so hang on. this is exactly the opposite of what we are met should be doing. but that never happened, and the problem is, is pretty day. i hear exactly right. in my own case out, when i 1st complained internally, i became known as the human rights guy. and a friend of mine came to me privately and said, you know, buddy, that's not a compliment, they're not complimenting you when they call you the human rights guy. and indeed, after having led the capture of the 3rd ranking official in al qaeda, i was turned down for promotion. because they said at my promotion panel, i had demonstrated a shocking lack of commitment to counter terrorism. because i declined the torture training. so it's the same, yeah. the same situation that you went through you,

you go through your chain of command and it turns out it's your chain of command that either is committing the crime or covering up for the crime. so let me ask you this, the decision to go to the media must not have been an easy one if it wasn't in my own case when, when i decided to blow the whistle on the cia torture program. i couldn't go through channels because my channels had created the torture program. i couldn't even go to congress because congress had secretly authorized and funded the torture program. my only choice was the media. was that your calculation? did you not get satisfaction from any of the official channels that you went through? it's exactly the same and i can't tell you how good it is. he made a heal story. i was like anywhere but. but as you know, and i ask, which may to say you on this to have a program because it's an extremely lonely road. yes. you know, still you get

a bacon. and to just to say someone else, i was decided i really need may son, march. i should have been promoted to in the sense that i had completed all the things that you're meant to can be, you know, complaint. i mean, you don't get assigned to the special forces unless you all wanted to talk to 4 of us. and i had t toolboxes i've been recommended for marcia, you know, i had a very, very strong history in that idea. a commander of soldiers, it'll was odd which nobody was gone. i know i was at oxford university, which no one done on how to pay publish. so all the things that should have gotten promoted, but yeah, i am annoying. may in this would have annoyed you. it would be not attacking. i guess if, if we always said where the bad guys, you know, we don't care, that's right. we are chemical. you know, we just want a week and i am and it's just but we were taught day and day out about the terrible

things that happened and you just love how people didn't stand up and 70. yeah. about how terrible analyses were about how the law was so important and act really stuck in my strike to say, hang on. you can't have it both ways. you cannot beat us around the head with doing the right thing. and then when i try to do the right snake, you try to put me jail the only organization that would do that isn't very evil them as a criminal honors. help us understand the timeline here. you reported your findings to your superiors years before going for the media. was it only after going to the media that the burton commission began investigating your findings? yeah, yeah. i thought connected, but the i was the 1st person to start mikey white's internally. and i guess, i think what is even more shocking in australia. i don't know how long you gave me

your interest and i used always. one of the things i used to hold up was the watergate scandal and, and, but i said it would work and all the presidents been leaves of the sort of things which i thought all, well, that's going in your that's what i'm looking for. as you get older, you realize that there was a fair bit of democrats versus republicans, and i'm in those things, right? rather than just rather than just misses the right thing to do. and out, because i was quite, i even astride but he was hard to get media interest. this was to make, if you had a story about a soldier writing someone or a story about a single and killing of a non entity. you might get it to run by a story which is big about generals and probably of ministers. politicians involved in number one to touch it because unfortunately, i think we've had media regress his media evolution in the now the badge

a media companies are very corporatized. i don't know, they never run a water good top storage dye because they're the media companies are selling day, but the government, they get tax concessions that are lama government to survive and running. a really big story which even it stopped the whole government. your guys to, to say key people in the government had, i did a criminal why i just didn't want to know a name and even the. busy journalist i saw was the sort of australian equivalent of up, but in the state or wood wood. and even he, he was happy to run a sort of bad soldiers story, but he wasn't get any, did eventually run that, but he. busy wasn't really and, and he was already on that, but a bad government story that was, that was a bit to help people to handle. i want to ask you about justice bremerton, his conclusions really were quite dramatic. he found that everything that you had

said had been true. he found that war crimes had been committed. he noted that none of the soldiers implicated in the murders of civilians had been prosecuted. and then he urged that you not be charged with any crime. why then has the australian government been so adamant in pursuing you? it seems that with public pressure and with a new government in canberra, you would be rewarded rather than prosecuted. what happened i think probably a bit like your case. a problem in beginning people realize i'm a stranger is a member of someone in cold. well, you know, well the 5 i and we are members will make a will this and i, there is a, i am just times it is a sort of a to me, it stands if you like it. you don't really care with the raw. busy and i guess they

are worried if i play it in the city, chicago, and guy in the series that a thing they don't know how many more mcbride's there are out there. i believe they probably said the same to you. this is probably how they just funny, prosecuted year to decide are off. we let him all, how many more going to come? i was going to come. exactly right. and who wills? who else is gonna end up at giles, you know, we need to stop on the start for the future. as like a science. i mean that no one has really prosecuted a for a scientist. revelation. and so they can't really, it's not really a matter of revenge, it's, it's a matter of we, we can't afford this to happen in the future because of everybody finds out how we do a message trace. we are in trouble, and i see it's because now that the u. s. controls strider, certainly for national security matters. and the usaa saying you've got to make an example of this guy because this guy gets off on board that a songy. what about what about assigns 2.0?

that's right. we need to, we need to crush these guys when you to sort of put a hands on, on polls outside of the for us to say don't cross us. it doesn't matter. when do you think you're right? you will lose, you know? yeah. they said these are all feet above your tire, right? the haven't charging what is was old for him, but on want to getting a child, not if it makes sense, you know, it, it, if the media would say sort of, you know, the whole, the government, someone besides, you know, in the 1970s washington, someone will be this is wrong, that's right. ok. and then i wouldn't get away with that, but unfortunately, tom's a change. i think now the public as you say the public are on saw. busy and now my best weapon, it seems when we had an initial hearing, i used to look at the, the u. s. hearings of the ones that you had to go to serve and say, oh my god,

no that's i will never win in that kind of hearing, but at least on the chance and strategy, because i've got a public interest defense to sign this information is in the public interest and the government have admitted it was the public interest storing because they ended up putting out a statement saying, we're not gonna charge the idea to journalists who read the story because it was a public story. now that means it's kids get a sandwich, just a public it story. so i thought i was kind of went, but unfortunately they have invited the old national security canada now right on that they always do the room. the ringer is from america away. here i was the q that i could somehow not to get your legal price is farrah, the oldest that has happened and boy will not even allowed to sign on the risk of getting arrested for it. we just have to say it muted terms out international

powers ever said that the information that i want to use in my defense is too dangerous. even sure, judge speak, that's what they always do. all they do and they walk into court and they say national security and they try to shut down your defense. they try to, to prohibit you from using exactly the information that you need to justify your righteous actions. david, please stay with us. we have to take a commercial break. you're watching the whistleblowers, we're going to take a short break and then we're going to come back for more of our conversation with australian whistleblower david mcbride. stay tuned. 2

2 ah. 2 2 2 a if you speak russian, keep your voice down while out and about a couple it doesn't put your human symbols on display a guy so you guys don't talk to strangers. i. 7 the void, noisy gatherings with your colleagues and perhaps also your friends think you're guilty because you'll, russian,

a specific struggle with finding with. 2 0, we're speaking with australian national security whistleblower david mcbride, who revealed evidence of war crimes committed by australian troops in africa stand is being prosecuted for his revelations. david, i've seen in both the australian press and in the british press, that you have widespread support, not just from average people and from peace activists, but from attorneys, and elected officials in both countries who say that you are an example of the kind

of national security whistleblower who should be lauded for his revelations. what is it that the australian government is stuck on? is it that the information that you gave to the media was technically classified? is that what this is about? i think that is trying to make an example of me. yeah. i say that yes, that's what their argument is. but if you drill down into it, it doesn't make sense. this is it, this is a most of the stuff that i go to. the priest was simply repulse of people getting shots in afghanistan on a mountain, you know, over 10 years ago. now it's a waterloo. we publicly knowledge, obviously, which got lot, mike to pretending we were there is a lot of books written about it is new movies of got it is better to for my son types of famous equivalent of a middle of all know when i was a kid to be

a war criminal and he got by and news typed up and he said them and subsequently by, by bought out. all the witnesses, all was pushes was witnesses and they were discussed in in court apartment. the names of the names were protected like special forces operations, but they, but what went on has already been discussed in court. and none of the information in my case is any, any more serious than that, i, nothing is about any kind of weapons codes white's capabilities. it's all about who shot, who want about in, in afghanistan. and you knew what? and when they knew it, ah, that's on national security, that's national embarrassed. and they are trying to say, oh, it's so super super secret, but it doesn't make sense because it's all been published already. not an antique only so, but one of the problems that you've got

a report discussed if i just insist to they the judge all know that we cannot take into any why is this a secret secret? is no much the charge he did, i, he cutting sy well ah, shoot united community to prove that to me doesn't sound some synchronous, doesn't sound like things we don't already know. right. i just keep insisting and saying we kind of explained to want started. so some important, i mean we weren't even released. this is how pathetic striders we want even more less on the details of the fact that we were involved in the coup in chile, which installed finish. i overland. i went in the 70 while we and the murphy american, even the even the c i a power and have released some sort of data. yes. out. that's free. that is truth. and he's trying to what he's trying to want, you know, 50 years later. well, i know not to say good, you know, that affects us and it's pretty pathetic and they just using as a weapon as

a weapon. i think that they just angry. i'm that i call soon. so they cite another just i sense of guilt that on thy cross may in the sense and they broke all of us to their country, to the law, to ethics my, to do, to military on our by broke the law is not that i care about that i said i brought it there, bit rules, but an extent that if they break the law and as i taught murders, are they going to be outed? um they just this sort of petty, petty bureaucrats on a mission and revenge. and they using the law as an excuse to yes, in jumping dave, in your attorneys and others say that it is unfathomable, that with all the information that is finally made it into the public domain. that you're still going through the nightmare of a trial. justice burton wrote this quote,

perhaps the single most effective indication that there is a commitment to cultural reform is the demonstration that those who have been instrumental in the exposure of misconduct, or are known to have acted with propriety and probity. are regarded as role models on quote, that seems crystal clear to me and it sounds like a good defense. so where do you think this case goes from here? oh, i think i'm going to draw it on the go be convicted i. i think it because once i you, you, if you get to control what evidence guys him, you will always win. and i funny enough, even though they, by enemies, they all, it's all national security, its own national security. occasionally they say something is national security, which tells nick, i said doesn't don't like i just got a fee in and they really are quite a bit of terrible that he is. are they going to get away with it?

i see what they're not going to get away with is 40 main job. 20 is because the public and people around the world are getting a really, is absolutely embarrassment for the western world corporate level warrant. kara was killed a 1000000 table and a widget torture, and we were to lot and think that there were so many things wrong. we described ourselves and this, you know, there's a couple people that a guy and a child. you'd be one of them all to one of them, and on, and no one who actually deal a really bad fix is guided to had a career. saudi bright and bright is going to got a job like it was all he's for that's. that's fine. i going to public again? yeah, david and okay. your case is so well known. have you had the support of whistleblower organizations in australia or even abroad? have you, have you been able to get some help from them to get your side of the story into

the public eye? where else as your course support come from? just every di, paypal i had had was the blows before the guy you would have found the same whenever he saw myself as it was, but you don't really out of it. it's kind of a funny thing. you don't know what you know, boban list wasn't complete, but when you, when you made them, of course they're all really good people and they just like you and that nice actually help by case quite a bit closer than you would might have been the same if they can single you out that they will paint you as you describe. so yes jubal person above. but there was a whistleblower should go the whistle on the banking system in australia. and there was a royal commission in a row commission shut at the banking system. was just as he said, kindly, corrupt i was a whistle blower on me. i'm big, the money laundering and gambling guy, big white man said there were also some rules about how to avoid money laundering

and casinos and et cetera. and he said, went on following any of them, it's a joke and a guy and he's been proved to be right. and i who together we are strong. there was another guy who was a detective and he would guy like me had an impeccable record as a detective. and he said he expose the cover up of institute of sexual abuse in a lot of institutional hugs to children coupon. and he was pretty right. we had a role commission yet very for a doc stuff and not just not just the original abuse to the fact that senior figures in the government mentions messiah. we're actually actively involved covering it up. oh, that is pretty disturbing now, but we'll together with straw. it, you know, and that's raving. tell some people the average person's really, they're all making it up. they're all bad people. busy and, and so totally and there was another guy, but at cleary banks,

i just dropped against him and he did this. i think he exposed the fact and australian security services. i know that the, our c, i equivalent bugged in other countries. offices, not for any strategic military benefit, but to actually give the information to it on astride and biased oil company. so, you know, company could make the products and he got can beat it, you know, the, the supply got convicted and he's like really. and he was like, he can use their secret security services for commercial advantage. and he was one another child. and i said actually, basically when the judge said huh, your services and kill people, a totally legally and the only person, then we got to got child is the visible. now that's always the wrong. and eventually that the charges against the lawyer who helped bring that to life were

draws. but it shows up and it is, something's not raw, should i cite astride? i think there are so many of us pointing things out. i do get more people escape. i mean, all, quite rightly the government's dentist working a lot of stories, journalists to me a lot of whistle blowing stories that show because people are scared. and so the government fact is working in some ways. and that's what so important for me to keep a small i'm a 5 to me, a look like um, odd a not getting me down. i got ready to go into court a broken man punch. tiger and you know, looking sick. they would love that they would love me to commit suicide out of oppression. ah, they, i would actually, i'm cold champagne balls if i committed so i would just love it. and that kind of people, they are so determined to bring change their salaries and they, you know, their lunch money. that guy will guy will drive me a month. i'll go to tina. i stole that. you know, they don't care whether

a number that a father that is how despicable they strike him. not bureaucrats. ah, well, but i have to keep small because i'm an example to all the people come off. yes. yeah. that's it. that's. i was so important to you, she said, you didn't consider yourself to be a whistle blower. i said, i said the same thing. you're the poster boy for whistleblowers. and so we want to wish you the very, very best of luck, david mcbride. thank you so much for joining us. that's all we have for you today. i'm john kerry aku and this has been the whistleblowers. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah, is nato in a state of panic? the west is losing its ukraine proxy war on russia. the more the west helps ukraine, the smaller ukraine becomes,

all the west money sanctions and military 8 appear to change nothing. this is why the situation is now. so very day with joggers archipelago homer, that she goes to san diego garcia, the largest island in the archipelago, is now the location of a very large u. s. military base. you could go and met keith, i to the u. s. government to make a military base and just deported or the douglas and people from their country so they can return back on the i no, but we are fighting a we do not consider the right to self determination actually applies to the trickle. since i don't the question of self determination,

the legal advice we've received is actually the trickle. since we're not on all the people for me, it's done to move on and see what we can do for the community to return back home. there is no support from the united nation. i commission average in united nish. i don't care about chug or spend people with the president of the united states would rather let germany free then allow it to stop supporting ukraine. that's according to award winning american journalist seymour 1st. for earlier revealed a u. s. plot to blow up the north term gas pipelines. the white house are just citizens, not to panic. over recent you up bo incidence as hysteria over the possible alien origin of the mysterious object firewalls in the us. we take a closer look at what's really behind the story. ohio governor calls on congress to