he was trained to do when witnessing evidence of a crime. he went through his chain of command. but when his chain of command refused to do anything to investigate his allegations, he went to the media, the resulting outcry, let to something called the bremerton commission, led by major general justice paul burton, of new south wales, who led an investigation into mcbride's allegations. not only did justice raritan find that everything, david mcbride said was true. he recommended that no charges be filed for mcbride's decision to go to the media. and what was it that david mcbride alleged? he said that while he was serving in the australian army as an attorney, he saw that $25.00 australian soldiers were responsible for the cold blooded murder of 39 afghan civilians. the soldiers then planted weapons on the dead bodies in order to photograph evidence to justify the killings in something they called throw downs. david mcbride did the right thing. the burton commission says,

so the australian media says so the australian public says so. so why does the government insist on prosecuting him? were joined by whistleblower. david mcbride. david, welcome to the show. so glad to have you. thank you very much, sharing me it's laura. thank you. the pleasures ours. let's start at the beginning . you have a personal history of public service. you attended sidney university and then earned a 2nd degree at oxford. you joined the british army and served in germany before attending the elite royal military academy at sandhurst. you then commanded a platoon in northern ireland. after a period in the private sector, you returned to australia and you joined the army there. as an attorney, you then served 2 tours in afghanistan and earned a combat service metal. it was during your time in afghanistan that you saw evidence of war crimes. you reported those crimes through the proper channels and then what happened? well, it was quite

a surprise it up. i didn't want to know about it. know, quite clearly i became the problem. and that is one of the things i guess it was last on. if you with what your recording is really bad, be oh good. i was, i see your according to probably already knew and i don't boil you. all you've done is reveal yourself as a problem. and um, i became a 100 and that was a, i guess wasn't that surprising because i knew the leadership were involved. i knew the leadership, this could not have happened without the general's least having some idea of what was going on. and i had to my mind to little comply to those very same generals who had some idea of what was going on. so i had

a feeling it would go well. but i still as a lawyer, i knew that i had to my internal complaint. otherwise i'll die would i? you know, i really would be, i could go straight to gyle. i was quite surprised and you had had decided from the me dr. case. yes, i was quite surprised to find out county the problem. i thought that i would get a pedal back eventually, you know that some judicial figure would hear about it, or a, some senior retired military person would hear about it and they were going to patch me and say, hang on. this is exactly the opposite of what we are met should be doing. but that never happened. and the problem is, is pretty day. i hear exactly right. in my own case out, when i 1st complained internally, i became known as the human rights guy. and a friend of mine came to me privately and said, you know, buddy, that's not

a compliment. they're not complimenting you when they call you the human rights guy . indeed, after having led the capture of the 3rd ranking official in al qaeda, i was turned down for promotion because they said at my promotion panel, i had demonstrated a shocking lack of commitment to counter terrorism. because i declined the torture training. so it's the same. yeah, the same situation that you went through, you go through your chain of command and it turns out it's your chain of command that either is committing the crime or covering up for the crime. so let me ask you this, the decision to go to the media must not have been an easy one if it wasn't in my own case when, when i decided to blow the whistle on the cia torture program. i couldn't go through channels because my channels had created the torture program. i couldn't even go to congress because congress had secretly authorized and funded the torture program. my only choice was the media. was that your calculation?

did you not get satisfaction from any of the official channels that you went through? exactly the same and i can tell you how good it is to made a heal story. i was like anywhere but but as you know, and a guy asked me to say you on this to in a program because it's an extremely lonely road. yes. you know, so you get a bacon. and to just to say someone else on the side, i really see a sneed may son march. i should have been promoted to in the sense that i had completed all the things that you meant to can be, you know, complaint. i mean, you don't get assigned to the special forces unless you are one of the talked reformers. ah, and i had teeth all the boxes i've been recommended for my son. you know, i had a very, very strong history in that idea. a commander of soldiers, it was odd which not many boys. don, i know i was at oxford university which no one dot on how to pay, publish the old things. it should have gotten promoted, but yeah,

i am. and what and doing man is sort of annoyed you. it would be that attack. and i guess if, if we always said where the bad guys, you know, we don't care about rights, we are chemical. you know, we just won a week and i am an ex judge, but we were whole day and day out about the terrible things that happened. and you saw the how people didn't stand up and separately. yeah. about how terrible the nazis were about how the law was so important and act really stuck in my strike to say, hang on. you can't have it both ways. you cannot beat us around the head with doing the right thing. and then when i try to do the right sneak, you try to put me jail the on the organization that would do that isn't very evil that i saw a criminal honors. help us understand the timeline here. you reported your findings to your superiors. years before going through the media, was it only after going to the media that the burton commission began investigating

your findings? yeah, yeah. i thought connected, but the i was the 1st person to start making wives internally. and i guess i think what is even more shocking in australia. i don't know how long you to gain your interest and i used always. one of the things i used to hold up was the award again, scandal and n birthday. and it would work. and all the prison, it's been leaves of the sort of things which i thought all, well, that's gonna your, that's what i'm looking for. as you get older, you realize that there was a fair bit of democrats versus republicans. and now in those things, right, rather than just rather than just misses the right thing to do. and on that because i was quite, i minister, i had been, he was hard to get media interest if was to make if you had a story about us all to writing someone or a story about a i single and killing of

a non entity. you might get it to run, but a story which is big about generals and probably of ministers. politicians involved in, not going to touch it because they are. and unfortunately, i think we've had media. i've been great his media illusion in the now the major media companies are very corporatized. i and they never run on water guy talk stories die. because they're the media companies are selling, they buy the government, they get tax concessions that rely on the government to survive and running. a really big story which even it stop the whole government, your guys have to say key people in the government had by i did a criminal why i just didn't want to know a name and even the 1st. busy journalist i saw was the sort of australian equivalent of but in the state or woodward. and i'm even he, he was happy to run

a sort of bad soldiers story. but he wasn't get any did eventually on that. but he . busy wasn't really and he was already on that, but a bad government story. that was that was a bit to help people handle. i want to ask you about justice brereton. his conclusions really were quite dramatic. he found that everything that you had said had been true. he found that war crimes had been committed. he noted that none of the soldiers implicated in the murders of civilians had been prosecuted. and then he urged that you not be charged with any crime. why then has the australian government been so adamant in pursuing you? it seems that with public pressure and with the new government in canberra, you would be rewarded rather than prosecuted. what happened? i think probably it a bit like your case. a 1000000 people realize i'm a stranger is a member of someone in cold. well, you know, well the 5 i,

it's ration and i and i, we are members will make a will this and i, there is, and i am just times it is a sort of a, to me, it was stand if you like it it, i don't really care with the raw. busy and i guess they are worried if i played in chicago and game theory sort of thing. they got on how many more mcbride's there are out there. and i believe they probably said the same. they do you. this is called the how they just fun, prosecuted year to decide all we let him all, how many more going to come? nobody was going to comment. exactly. right. and who wills? who else is good? i written up a jolly, you know, waiting to stop on the start for the future as like a science. i mean, no one has really prosecuted a for a sanchez revelation. and so they can't really, it's not really a matter of revenge it's, it's a matter of we,

we can't afford this to happen in the future because of he finds out how we do our best traits. we are in trouble, and i see it's because now that the us control and strike, i'm certainly for national security matters. and the usaa saying you've got to make an example of this guy, because if this guy gets off on board that assigned you, what about what about assigns to point 0? that's right. we need to, we need to crush these guys when you to sort of put a head on, on polls outside deal before. just to say do not cross us. it doesn't matter. when do you think you're right? you will lose, you know? yeah, they said these are all feet above your cake, right. the haven't charging what is, was all the bern. ah, but on want to get a good child. not if it makes sense. you know, it. if a media, once i sort of beholden to the gallon, but someone would be saying, you know,

in the 19 seventy's washington, a mom who beside this is wrong. that's right. and they wouldn't get away with it. but unfortunately, tons of change. i think now the public as you say the public are on saw. busy and and now my. busy women, it seems when we had an initial hearing, i used to look at the, the u. s. hearings of the ones that you had to go circ and say, oh my god, no that's i will never win in that kind of hearing, but at least on the chance and strategy, because i'm going to public interest to face to say this information is in the public interest and the government have admitted it was the public interest storing because they ended up putting out a statement saying we're not going to charge the ac journalists to read a story because it was a public story. now that means is kids get a sandwich, just a public it story. so i thought i was going to win, but unfortunately they are invoke the old national security count anal right on to

the always do the room, the room or is it from and away. here i was thinking that i could somehow not get you. all legal price is farrah, the alderson has happened and why we're not even allowed to sign on the risk of getting arrested for we just have to say a mutual terms out international bothers ever said that the information that i want to use in my to face is too dangerous, even sure, judge the that's what they always do. all they do and they walk into court and they say national security and they try to shut down your defense. they try to, to prohibit you from using exactly the information that you need to justify your righteous actions. david, please stay with us. we have to take a commercial break. you're watching the whistleblowers. we're going to take a short break and then we're going to come back for more of our conversation with australian whistleblower david mcbride. stay tuned.

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with a a . 2 ah, we're speaking with australian national security whistleblower david mcbride, who revealed evidence of war crimes committed by australian troops in afghanistan and is being prosecuted for his revelations. david,

i've seen in both the australian press and in the british press, that you have widespread support, not just from average people and from peace activists, but from attorneys, and elected officials in both countries who say that you are an example of the kind of national security whistleblower who should be lauded for his revelations. what is it that the australian government is stuck on? is it that the information that you gave to the media was technically classified? is that what this is about? i think they just try to make an example of me. yeah. i say that yes, that's what their argument is. but if you drill down into it, it doesn't make sense. this is, this is a, most of the stuff that i tried to, the priest was simply reports of people getting shots in afghanistan on a mountain, you know, over 10 years ago. now it's a waterloo. we publicly knowledge, obviously,

which got lot like to pretending because there is a lot of books written about it is made movies of got it. it's been a to for my son, types of famous equivalent of a middle owner. when i was accused of being a war criminal and he got by and news typed up and he said them, and subsequently i buy, bought out all the witnesses, all was precious. most witnesses and they were disgusted in court apartment. their names are the names were protected like special forces operation job but the, but what went on has already been discussed, you know, court. and none of the information in my case is any, any more serious than that i, nothing is about any kind of weapons codes or whites capabilities. it's all. busy about who's shot, who on a mountain in afghanistan, and you knew what? and when they knew it, ah,

that's on national security. that's national embarrassed. and they are trying to say, oh, it's so super, super secret, but it doesn't make sense because it's all been published already. not an antique only so, but one of the problems that you've got 8 would have avoided discussed if i just insist to they the judge all know that we cannot take into any why is this a secret secret? is no, much to judge. he did, i, he cuttings, i well, ah, shoot, you know, you need to prove that to me doesn't sound subsidiary. it doesn't sound like things . we don't already know, right. i just keep insisting saying, we kind of explain to want started so, so important. i mean, we weren't even released. this is how pathetic striders we want even more less details of the fact that we were involved in the coup in chile, which installed finish ireland. i wouldn't a necessity while we and the murphy american, even the, even the c. i,

a parent had, have released some sort of data. yes out. that's free. if the truth is right is what is trans want in a 50 years light out? well, i'm not nice to say good, you know, that affects us and i, it's pretty pathetic and they just using as a weapon, it's a weapon. i think that they just angry. i'm that i call soon. so they say i'm not a list. i sense of guilt that on thy cross may in the sense and they broke all of the us to the country, to the law, to ethics. i could do to renew entry on our by broke. the law is not that i care about that. i said i brought it there roles and said that if they break the law as they talk robbers, are they going to be outed? um they just this that a pity i pay he bureaucrats on a mission of revenge. and they using the law as an excuse to yes, edge on me,

david, your attorneys and others say that it is unfathomable, that with all the information that is finally made it into the public domain. that you're still going through the nightmare of a trial. justice burton wrote this quote, perhaps the single most effective indication that there is a commitment to cultural reform is the demonstration that those who have been instrumental in the exposure of misconduct, or are known to have acted with propriety and probity. are regarded as role models on quote, that seems crystal clear to me and it sounds like a good defense. so where do you think this case goes from here? oh, i think i'm going to draw it on the go be convicted. i think it is because once you, you, if you get to control what evidence goes in, you will always win and go from me. and i,

even though they by enemies die all it's all national security is on national security. occasionally they say something is national security, which tells nick ice and doesn't don't like stuff guffy, you know, they really are what they terrible he is. are they going to get away with it? i think what they're not going to get away with is 40 main. tell the 20 is because the public and people around the world are getting a really, is absolutely embarrassment for the western world. corporate level war on terror was killed a 1000000 table and a widget torture and we were de la ada and, and there were so many scenes. busy wrong, we described ourselves and this, you know, there's a couple people that a guy, the child, you'd be one of them on one of them and, and no one who actually deal a really bad fix is guided or even had the korean slightly right. and mcbride is

going to got a job like it was all he's for that's. that's why i got a public again. yeah. david and okay. your case is so well known. have you had the support of whistleblower organizations in australia or even abroad? have you, have you been able to get some help from them to get your side of the story into the public eye? where else as your course support come from just angry di paypal i had had, was the last afford again, you would have found the same one it already. so myself it was but you don't really out of it. it's kind of a funny thing. you know, what you know can moment was, was a complex, but when you, when you made them, of course, they're all really good people or they just like you and that nice actually help my case. quite a bit close than you would might have been the same if i can single you out that they will paint you as you describe. so yes jubal person above. but there was a whistleblower should go the whistle on the banking system in australia and it was

a role commission and a role commission shut at the banking system was just as he said, kindly corrupt i was a whistleblower on me. i'm big, do money laundering and gambling guy and be like, man said that we're all sorts of rules about how to avoid money laundering in sina isn't, et cetera. and he said, went on following any of them, it's a joke and a guy and he's been proved to be right. and i, who together we have strong, there was another guy who was a detective, and he would, guy like me, had an impeccable record as a detective. and he said he exposed the cover up of insta, cheer, sexual abuse. in a lot of institutional said shogun cobra and he was pretty right. we had a role committed. yeah, very for doc stuff and not just not just the original abuse to the fact that senior figures in the government mentions the messiah. we're actually actively involved in

covering it up on that. it's pretty disturbing. now book together with straw it, you know, and that's ready to tell some people the average person's really, they're all my, you know, they're all bad people. busy and so totally and there was another guy, but at cleary banks, i just dropped against him and he did the same thing. he, he exposed the fact and australian security services. i know that the, our c, i equivalent when bugged in other countries, offices not for any strategic military benefit, but to actually give the information to an astride and by soil company. so, you know, company could make the products and he got can beat it, you know, the, the supply got to make to them is like really. and he was like, he can use their secret security services, the commercial advantage. and he was one of joe, and i said actually by see when the judge said huh,

secure services and kill people, a totally and the only person that got child is that the visible. now that's always the wrong. and eventually that the charges against the lawyer who helped bring that to life were draws. but it shows up and it is, something's not raw, should i cite astride? i think there are so many of us pointing things out. i do get more, but people escape. i mean, all quite rightly the government's dentist working a lot of stories, journalists to, we love with the long stories that shill, because people are scared. and so the government's tactics working in some ways. and that's why it's so important for me to keep a small, i'm a fight to make it look like i'm not getting me down. i cannot really go into court a broken man and you know, looking sick, they would love that. i would love me to commit suicide out of oppression. they. yeah, we actually uncalled champagne balls if i committed so that would less love it. i

and that kind of people are so determined to bring change this salaries and they, you know, their lunch money the dying will guy will drive me and what i've got 2 teenaged. all that's, you know, they don't care with the right number that a father. that is how despicable they strike he not bureaucrats. ah, well, but i have to keep small because i'm an example to other people come off. yes. yes ma'am. that's it. yep. i was selling point lucy sir, you know you didn't consider yourself to be a whistleblower? i said, i said the same thing. you're the poster boy for whistleblowers. and so we want to wish you the very, very best of luck, david mcbride. thank you so much for joining us. that's all we have for you today. i'm john kerry aku and this has been the whistleblowers.

2 2 2 ah. 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah, with in 1884, the german empire began its colonial invasion into namibia. from the very start. berlin encouraged the white colonists to settle in south west africa and take away the land from the local tribes. the germans were actively draining natural resources and using the local population as a cheap labor source. this was causing major protests and led to a rebellion. in 19 o 4,

the hero and nama tribes rebuild against german colonial rule. kaiser wilhelm the 2nd was fully determined in order to suppress the rebellion with the utmost severity against the inhabitants of nam may be a germany through is 15000 well equipped army all around the country. concentration camps were built in humane medical experiments over citizens were conducted within the period of 4 years. the germans killed up to 60000 people, among which there were 80 percent of the hero tribe, and 50 percent of the nama tribe. the events in south west africa are called the 1st genocide of the 20th century, and not without reason are compared to the holocaust just 2 decades later after the massacre in nam may be a hitler's assault unit put on the same brown colonial uniform which push the world

into the chasm of the 2nd world war mm mm ah, it couldn't mean you know, too far, so financial a shit. in the pretext of saying that it is linked to some document. that exclusive comments we received from india's ruling at b j. p policy. well pbc office is it being rated in the country on suspicion of tax evasion of scandal. lead were documentary criticizing india's prime minister also coming up with why is it needed to paralyze the ukrainian are in the works and it's.