town with a population of 35000 local saves, they got their land back. they would be glad to return to farming. but until then, toxic trash will remain the only thing they could rely on. race nationality from edna. always good to have your company with us on our t international web back at the top of the hour with plenty more. ah ah. 2 2 the difficulty that national security

whistleblowers face is not unique to the united states. other countries around the world treat their national security whistle blowers harshly. especially when those whistle blowers reveal evidence of war crimes. one of the best and most recent examples is from australia, where david mcbride, a former australian army attorney, is facing criminal charges because of his revelations that australian soldiers committed war crimes and crimes against humanity in afghanistan. mcbride, a decorated combat veteran, now faces the prospect of spending much of the rest of his life in prison. i'm john carry aku and you're watching the whistleblowers. ah. 2 david mcbride is one of those rare whistleblowers who did exactly what he was trained to do when witnessing evidence of a crime. he went through his chain of command. but when his chain of command refused to do anything to investigate his allegations, he went to the media,

the resulting outcry let to something called the brereton commission. led by major general justice paul breton of new south wales, who led an investigation into mcbride's allegations. not only did justice burton find that everything, david mcbride said was true. he recommended that no charges be filed for mcbride's decision to go to the media. and what was it that david mcbride alleged? he said that while he was serving in the australian army as an attorney, he saw that $25.00 australian soldiers were responsible for the cold blooded murder of 39 afghan civilians. the soldiers then planted weapons on the dead bodies in order to photograph evidence to justify the killings in something they called throw downs. david mcbride did the right thing. the bremerton commission says so the australian media says so the australian public says so. so why does the government insist on prosecuting him?

were joined by whistleblower. david mcbride. david, welcome to the show. so glad to have you. thank you very much for having me. it's an honor. thank you. the pleasures ours. let's start at the beginning. you have a personal history of public service. you attended sidney university and then earned a 2nd degree at oxford. you joined the british army and served in germany before attending the elite royal military academy at sandhurst. you then commanded a platoon in northern ireland. after a period in the private sector, you returned to australia and you joined the army there. as an attorney, you then served 2 tours in afghanistan and earned a combat service metal. it was during your time in afghanistan that you saw evidence of war crimes. you reported those crimes through the proper channels and then what happened? well, it was quite surprising up. i didn't want another quite

clearly. i became the problem. and that is one of the things i guess it was last on. if you, with what your recording is really bad, be oh good. i was, i see your according to probably already knew and i don't boil you. all you've done is reveal yourself as a problem and i had a 100 and that was a, i guess it wasn't a surprising because i knew the leadership were involved. i knew the leadership. this could not have happened without the general's least having some idea of what was going on. and i had to my mind total complaint to those very cited generals who had some idea of what was going on. so i had a feeling it wouldn't go well. but i still as a lawyer, i knew that i had my internal complaint. otherwise they would, i, you know,

i really would be, i could go straight to gyle. i was quite surprised and you mad had decided probably dr. tags. yes, i was quite surprised to find out county control. i thought that i would get a pedal back eventually. you know that some judicial figure would hear about it or a some see or an odd military person would hear about it. and i would going to patch means i hang on. this is exactly the opposite of what we are met should be doing. but that have a hat and the problem is, is pretty day. you're exactly right. in my own case. when i 1st complained internally, i became known as the human rights guy. and a friend of mine came to me privately and said, you know, buddy, that's not a compliment, they're not complimenting you when they call you the human rights guy. and indeed, after having led the capture of the 3rd ranking official in al qaeda,

i was turned down for promotion. because they said at my promotion panel, i had demonstrated a shocking lack of commitment to counter terrorism. because i declined the torture training. so it's the same, yeah. the same situation that you went through, you go through your chain of command and it turns out it's your chain of command that either is committing the crime or covering up for the crime. so let me ask you this, the decision to go to the media must not have been an easy one if it wasn't in my own case when, when i decided to blow the whistle on the cia torture program. i couldn't go through channels because my channels had created the torture program. i couldn't even go to congress because congress had secretly authorized and funded the torture program. my only choice was the media. was that your calculation? did you not get satisfaction from any of the official channels that you went through? exactly the same and i can tell you how good it is made he or story i was like

anywhere but. but as you know, and a guy asked me to say you on this to have a program because it's just an extremely lonely road. yes. you're not supposed to get a bacon. and to just to say someone else, i was decided i really base need may son march, i should have been promoted to in the sense that i had completed all the things that you're meant to can be, you know, complaint. i mean, you don't get assigned to the special forces unless you are one of the talked reformers. ah, and i had tito the boxes i been recommended for my son. you know, i had a very, very strong history in that idea. a commander of soldiers, it was odd which not many boys. god, i know i was at oxford university which no one dot on how to pay publish to all the things that should have gotten promoted. but yes i am. and what and doing man is sort of annoyed you. it wouldn't be that attack, i guess if,

if we. busy always said where the bad guys, you know, we don't care math, right? we are chemical. you know, we just want a week and i am and it's just but we were toil day in day out about the terrible things that happened and you just love how people didn't stand up and 70. yeah. about how terrible analyses were about how the law was so important and act really stuck in my strike to say, hang on. you can't have it both ways. you cannot beat us around the head with doing the right thing. and then when i try to do the right snake, you try to put me jail the on the organization. it would do that isn't very evil than i said. a criminal honors help us understand the timeline here. you reported your findings to your superiors years before going for the media. was it only after going to the media that the burton commission began investigating your findings? yeah, yeah, i thought connected, but yeah,

i was the 1st person to start mikey white's internally. and i guess, i think what is even more shocking in australia. i don't know how long it you gave me your interest and i used always. one of the things i used to hold up was the watergate scandal and and, but i said it would work. and all the presidents been lease of the sort of things which i thought, oh well that's your, that's what i'm looking for. as you get older, you realize that there was a fair bit of democrats versus republicans and on those things, right? rather than just rather than just misses the right thing to do and on that because i was quite naive in australia, but he was hard to get media interest if was to make if you had a story about us all to writing someone or a story about a, i single and killing of a non entity. you might get it to run. but

a story which is big about generals and probably of ministers. politicians involved in delaware and to touch it because they are. and unfortunately, i think we've had media of regressive media evolution in the now the major media companies are very corporatized. i'd have a run of watergate top storage dye because they're the media companies are selling day by the government. they get tax concessions that rely on the government to survive and running. a really big story which even it stop the whole government, your guys to, to say key people in the government had by did a criminal why they just didn't want to know and name. and even the 1st. busy journalist i saw was the sort of australian equivalent of but in the state of woodward. and even he, he was happy to run a sort of bad soldiers story. but he wasn't get any, did eventually run that. he. busy wasn't really nice and he was already on that,

but a bad government story that was, that was a bit to help people handle. i want to ask you about justice bremerton, his conclusions really were quite dramatic. he found that everything that you had said had been true. he found that war crimes had been committed. he noted that none of the soldiers implicated in the murders of civilians had been prosecuted. and then he urged that you not be charged with any crime. why then has the australian government been so adamant in pursuing you? it seems that with public pressure and with the new government in canberra, you would be rewarded rather than prosecuted. what happened i think probably a bit like your case, a couple of 1000000 people realize i'm a stranger is a member of someone in cold. well, you know, well the 5 i that's right. and i and i, we are members will make

a little this. and i, there is a, i am just times it is a sort of a to me it stand if you like it. you don't really care with the raw. busy and i guess they are worried if i play it in the city chicago guy in the series sort of thing. they don't know how many mcbride's there are out there. i believe they probably said the same to you. this is called the how they just fun, prosecuted year to decide are off. we let him all, how many more going to come? i was going to comment. exactly. right. and who wills? who else is gonna end up at giles, you know, waiting to stop on the start for the future. as like a science. i mean, no one who's really prosecuted for a scientist. revelation. and so they can't really, he's not really a matter of revenge. it's, it's a matter of we, we can't afford this to happen in the future because every body, dan, how we do our matches trace. we are in trouble,

and i see it's because now that the u. s. controls strider, i'm certainly from national security matters. and the usaa saying you've got to make an example of this guy because this guy gets off on board that a songy. what about what about a science 2.0? that's right. we need to, we need to crush these guys. we need to sort of put a head on, on polls outside d m. the, for us to say, do not cross us. it doesn't matter. when do you think you're right? you will lose, you know? yeah. is it, these are all feet above your pike, right? the haven't charging what is was algebra and, ah, but on want to getting a child, not if it makes sense, you know, it, if the media would say sort of, you know, the hold of the government, someone would be saying, you know, in the 1970s washington come on will be side, this is wrong. that's right, i am and they wouldn't get away with it. but unfortunately tons of change. i

think now the public as you say the public are on saw. busy and now my best weapon, it seems when we had an initial hearing, i used to look at the, the u. s. hearings of the ones that you had to go circ and say, oh my god, no that's, i will never win in that kind of hearing. but at least on the chance and strategy, because i've got a public interest defense to say this information is in the public interest. and the government have admitted it was a public interest story because they ended up putting out a statement saying, we're not gonna charge the id, say, journalists who read a story because it was a public story. now that means is kids get a stablish just a public it story. so i thought i was going to win, but unfortunately they had invited the old national security canada now right on. so they always do the room. the room or is it from america? here?

i was thinking that i could somehow not get your legal price is farrah the opposite has happened. and while we're not even allowed to side on the risk of getting arrested for, we just have to say a mutual terms. our international powers ever said that the information that i want to use in my to phrase is too dangerous. even sure. judge the, that's what they always do. all they do and they walk into court and they say national security and they try to shut down your defense. they try to, to prohibit you from using exactly the information that you need to justify your righteous actions. david, please stay with us. we have to take a commercial break. you're watching the whistleblowers, we're going to take a short break and then we're going to come back for more of our conversation with australian whistleblower david mcbride. stay tuned. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah,

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2 0, we're speaking with australian national security whistleblower david mcbride, who revealed evidence of war crimes committed by australian troops in afghanistan and is being prosecuted for his revelations. david, i've seen in both the australian press and in the british press, that you have widespread support, not just from average people and from peace activists, but from attorneys, and elected officials in both countries who say that you are an example of the kind of national security whistleblower who should be lauded for his revelations. what is it that the australian government is stuck on? is it that the information that you gave to the media was technically classified? is that what this is about? i think they just try to make an example of me. yeah. i say yes, that's what their argument is. but if you drill down into what it doesn't make

sense, this is a most of the stuff that i go to. the press was simply reports of people getting shots in afghanistan on a mountain, you know, over 10 years ago. now it's a waterloo. we publicly knowledge, obviously, which we are not what mike pretending we were there is a lot of books written about it, is they movies about it. there's been a defamation types by a famous, an equivalent of a middle of all when i was a kid to be a war criminal and he got by a newspaper and he said, hm. and subsequently by, by bought out all the witnesses, all the specials witnesses, and they were discussed in, in court apartment names. and the names were protected like special forces operation up there. but what went on has already been discussed in court. and none

of the information in my case is any, any more serious than that, i, nothing is about any kind of weapons colonel white's capabilities. it's all about who's shot, who on a mountain in afghanistan, and you knew what? and when they knew it, ah, that's on national security, that's national embarrassed. and they are trying to say all it says citizens secret, but it doesn't make sense because it's all been published already and completely so. but what are the problems that you've got a report discussed? if i just insist to they the judge, oh, no doubt we cannot take any. why is this a secret secret? is no much the charge to do i he cut in sigh. well, ah, showing, you know, you need to prove that to me doesn't sound some synchronous, doesn't sound like things. we don't already know, right? i just keep existing and saying like i explained to,

you want started. so some important, i mean, we weren't even released. this is how pathetic striders we want, even were less details of the fact that we were involved in the coo and chilly bob, which is still finish. i overland. i was in the 70. wow. when and in the america even the even the c. i, a parent had, have released some sort of data. yes out. that's free. that's truth. and he's tried is what he's trying to want, you know, 50 years later. well, like not on that tuesday. you know, that affects us and it's pretty pathetic and they just using as a weapon and it's a weapon. i think that they just angry um, but i also saw that i site, i'm not just i sense of guilt that on thy cross may in the sense that they broke all the us to that country to the law, to ethics. what to do to military on

a bi broke the law is not that i care about that. i think i brought it rules, but an extent that if i break the law and if i top robbers, are they going to be outed? they just this sort of pity, i can't he bureaucrats on a mission in revenge. and they using the law as an excuse to get us in jumping. david, your attorneys and others say that it is unfathomable, that with all the information that has finally made it into the public domain, that you're still going through the nightmare of trial. justice burton wrote this quote, perhaps the single most effective indication that there is a commitment to cultural reform is the demonstration that those who have been instrumental in the exposure of misconduct, or are known to have acted with propriety and probity. are regarded as role models on quote, that seems crystal clear to and it sounds like

a good defense. so where do you think this case goes from here? oh, i think i'm going to drop it off the go be convicted i. i think it because once you you, if he, if you get to control what evidence guys him you will always win and are funny enough even though they and by enemies. they all, it's all national security, its own national security. occasionally they say something is national security, which tells nick, i said doesn't, don't, mike, i just got a fee and they really are what a terrible thing is they going to get away with it. i see what they're not going to get away with is 40 main job. 20 is because the public and people around the world are getting a really, is absolutely embarrassment for the western world. corporate level warren tara was killed a 1000000 table and a widget torture,

and we were delighted and then there were so many things wrong. we described ourselves on this. you know, there's a couple people that a guy and a child. you'd be one of them all to one of them and on, and no one who actually deal a really bad fix is guided or even had the korean slot. right. and what brought is going to got a job like it was all useful. that's, that's fine. i think the public again yeah. david and okay. your case is so well known. have you had the support of whistleblower organizations in australia or even abroad? have you, have you been able to get some help from them to get your side of the story into the public eye? where else as your core support come from? tis every day people had had with the bloss afford. again, you would have found the same one emory so myself, it was slow. you don't really at all it, it's kind of a funny thing. you don't know what you know can moment list the complex,

but when you, when you made him, of course they're all really good people and they just like you and that nice actually help by case quite a bit lose. um then you would might have been the same if i can single you out that they will paint you as he described. oh yes jubal person baba. but he was a whistle blower should go the whistle on the banking system in australia. and there was a royal commission, a royal commission shouted at the banking system was just as he said, kindly, corrupt i said with a whistleblower on me, i'm big. the money laundering and gambling guy, big like man said there were also some rules about how to avoid money laundering and casinos and. busy extra and he said, went on following any of them, it's a joke and a guy and he's been proved to be right. ah. and i who together we are strong. there was another guy who was a detective and he would guy like me, had an impeccable record as a detective. and he said he exposed to cover up of institute of sexual abuse

in a lot of institutional hudson shogun co, paul. and he and he was pretty right, we had a role committee and very, very doc stuff and not just not just the original abuse to the fact that senior figures in the government, a mechanistic messiah. we're actually actively involved, covering up on that it's pretty disturbing. now, but together with straw it, you know, and that's raving. tell some people the average person's really they're all my, you know, they're all bad people. busy and, and so totally and there was another guy, but at cleary banks, hodges were dropped against him and he did this. i think he exposed the fact and australian security services. i know that the, our c, i equivalent win bugged, and other countries offices not for any are in strategic military benefit, but to actually give the information to an astride him by company. so the oil

company could make the products and he got can beat it. you know, the, the supply got convicted and he's like really and he was like, he can use their secret security services for commercial advantage. and he was one of them, joe. and i said, actually, basically when the judge said, huh. the scare services and killed april, a totally legally and the only person. then we got a got child is abusive. now that's almost the wrong. and eventually that the charges against the lawyer who helped bring that to light we're draws. but it shows um and it is something's not raw, should i cite astride? i think there are so many of us pointing things out. i do get more people scare. i mean, all quite rightly the government's dentist working a lot of stories, journalists to, we love with the blog stories that show because people are scared. and so the government's tactics working in some ways. and that's what so important for me to

keep a small i'm a 5 to me to look like. um, are they not getting me down? i cannot ready to go into court a broken man punch. tiger and you know, looking sick. they would love that i would love me to commit suicide out of oppression. ah, they, i would actually uncalled champagne balls if i committed so that would less love it by and that kind of people pass so determined to bring change this salaries and they, you know, their lunch money that they will, they will drive me and what i've got 2 teenaged all it's, you know, they, they don't care whether a number that a father that is how you know to speak of all these astray, not bureaucrats. ah, well, but i have to keep small because i'm an example to all the i sort of will come off . yes. yes, little after that, that's independent to do it on the left. on a certain point you she is. are you, you didn't consider yourself be a whistleblower?

i said i said the same thing. you're the poster boy for whistleblowers. and so we want to wish you the very, very best of luck, david mcbride. thank you so much for joining us. that's all we have for you today. i'm john kerry aku and this has been the whistleblowers. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah, ah with

ah, is it going to be, you know, a 4 or should in the 3, dec stopping that it is going to some documents. on last, the exclusive comments we've received from engineers ruling policy as b b fi offices in the country are rated for the 2nd consecutive day on suspicion of tax evasion, both with as for buckled. why is it why it's needed to paralyze the ukranian army? and it's already paralyzed with big through russia. wagner, military group chief.