to investigate his allegations, he went to the media, the resulting outcry, let to something called the bremerton commission, led by major general justice paul brereton of new south wales who led an investigation into mcbride's allegations. not only did justice breton find that everything, david mcbride said was true. he recommended that no charges be filed from mcbride's decision to go to the media. and what was it that david mcbride alleged? he said that while he was serving in the australian army as an attorney, he saw that $25.00 australian soldiers were responsible for the cold blooded murder of 39 afghan civilians. the soldiers then planted weapons on the dead bodies in order to photograph evidence to justify the killings in something they called throw downs. david mcbride did the right thing. the bremerton commission says so the australian media says so the australian public says so. so why does the government insist on prosecuting him?

were joined by whistle blower. david mcbride. david, welcome to the show. so glad to have you. thank you very much. 9, it's long. thank you. the pleasures ours. let's start at the beginning. you have a personal history of public service. you attended sidney university and then earned a 2nd degree at oxford. you joined the british army and served in germany before attending the elite royal military academy at sandhurst. you then commanded a platoon in northern ireland. after a period in the private sector, you returned to australia and you joined the army there. as an attorney, you then served 2 tours in afghanistan and earned a combat service metal. it was during your time in afghanistan that you saw evidence of war crimes. you reported those crimes through the proper channels and then what happened? well, it was quite surprising. i didn't want another quite

clearly. i became the problem. and that is one of the things i guess it was a loss on it. if you with what your recording is really bad, be oh good. i see you're according to probably already do and i don't boil you or you've done it. reveal yourself as a problem. and um, i became a 100 and that was a, i guess it wasn't that surprising because i knew the leadership were involved. i knew the leadership, this could not have happened without the general's least having some idea of what was going on. and i had to my mind to little comply to those very same generals who had some idea of what was going on. so i had a feeling it would go well. but i still as a lawyer, i knew that i had to my internal complaint. otherwise they would, i, you know,

i really would be, i could go straight to gyle. i was quite surprised and you had had decided from the me dr. case. yes, i was quite surprised to find out county the problem. i thought that i would get a pedal back eventually, you know that some judicial figure would hear about it or a, some see her and thought military person would hear about it and they were going to patch man, so hang on. this is exactly the opposite of what we are met should be doing. but that never happened. and the problem is, is pretty day. i hear exactly right. in my own case out, when i 1st complained internally, i became known as the human rights guy. and a friend of mine came to me privately and said, you know, buddy, that's not a compliment. they're not complimenting you when they call you the human rights guy . and indeed, after having led capture of the 3rd ranking official in al qaeda,

i was turned down for promotion because they said at my promotion panel, i had demonstrated a shocking lack of commitment to counter terrorism because i declined the torture training. so it's the same. yeah, the same situation that you went through, you go through your chain of command and it turns out it's your chain of command that either is committing the crime or covering up for the crime. so let me ask you this, the decision to go to the media must not have been an easy one if it wasn't in my own case when, when i decided to blow the whistle on the cia torture program. i couldn't go through channels because my channels had created the torture program. i couldn't even go to congress because congress had secretly authorized and funded the torture program. my only choice was the media. was that your calculation? did you not get satisfaction from any of the official channels that you went through? it's exactly the same and i can't tell you how good it is. you made your story. i

was like anywhere but. but as you know, and a guy asked me to say you on this to have a program because it's an extremely lonely road. yes. you know, still you get a bacon. and to just to say someone else, i was the side that really sneed may son march. i should have been promoted to in the sense that i had completed all the things that you're meant to can be, you know, a complaint. i mean, you don't get assigned to the special forces unless you all wanted to talk to form us. and i had take all the boxes i've been recommended for my son. you know, i had a very, very strong history in that idea. a commander of soldiers in a war which nobody voice gone. i know i was at oxford university which no one dot on how to play, publish the old things. it should have gotten promoted, but yeah, i am an one and doing man this would have annoyed you. it. would it be?

i guess if, if we always said where the bad guys, you know, we don't care about rights, we don't care, michel, you know, we just want a week and i am an ex judge, but we were whole day and day out about the terrible things that happened in yugoslavia how people didn't stand up and 70. yeah. about how terrible the nazis were about how the law was so important and act really stuck in my strike to say hang on. you can't have it both ways. you cannot beat us around the head with doing the right thing. and then when i try to do the right snake, you try to put me into the organization and would do that. is it very evil that i sent a criminal honors? help us understand the timeline here. you reported your findings to your superiors . years before going through the media. was it only after going to the media that the burton commission began investigating your findings? yeah, yeah. i thought connected body,

i was the 1st person to start mikey white's internally. and i guess i think what is even more shocking in australia. i don't know how long you to gain your interest and i used always. one of the things i used to hold up was the watergate scandal and, and, but i stay in woodward and old presidents been lease of the sort of things which i thought all, well that's your, that's what i'm looking for. as you get older, you realize that there was a fair bit of democrats versus republicans and on those things, right? rather than just rather than just misses the right thing to do and on. but of course i was quite, i even astride, but he was hard to get media interest if was to make, if you had a story about us all to writing someone or a story about a i single and killing of a non entity. you might get it to run, but

a story which is big about generals and probably of ministers, politicians involved in norm to touch it because unfortunately, i think we've had media regressive media lucian, in and out of major media companies are very corporatized. i never run a watergate top storage dye because they're the media companies are selling day by the government. they get tax concessions that rely on the government to survive and running. a really big story which even it stopped the whole government, your guys to, to say key people in the government had by i did a criminal wife and i just didn't want to know a name and even the. busy journalist i saw was the sort of australian equivalent of the state or wood wood. and even he, he was happy to run a sort of bad soldiers story, but he wasn't get any, did eventually run that. but he. busy wasn't really and,

and he was already on that a bad government story. that was, that was a bit too hot. i didn't handle, i want to ask you about justice bremerton. his conclusions really were quite dramatic. he found that everything that you had said had been true. he found that war crimes had been committed. he noted that none of the soldiers implicated in the murders of civilians had been prosecuted. and then he urged that you not be charged with any crime. why then has the australian government been so adamant in pursuing you? it seems that with public pressure and with a new government in canberra, you would be rewarded rather than prosecuted. what happened i think probably a bit like your case. a problem in be in people realize i'm a stranger is a member of someone in cold. well, you know, well the 5 i, that's right. and i and i, we are members will make

a locust. and there is a, i am just paying it as a sort of a to me, it was stacked if you like it, you don't really care with the raw. busy and i guess they are worried if they play it in the city, chicago, and guy in the series sort of thing. they don't know how many more mcbride's there are out there. i believe they probably said the same name to you. this is will be how they just fun, prosecuted year to decide are off. we let him all, how many more going to come? no way was going to come out. exactly right. and who wills? who else is gonna end up at giles, you know, we need to stop on this die for the future. as like a science. i mean that no one has really prosecuted a for a sanchez revelation since. and i can't really, it's not really a matter of revenge, it's, it's a matter of we, we can't afford to stamped in the future because of everybody finds out how we do out magic tricks. we are in trouble,

and i see it's because now that the u. s. controls strider, i'm certainly for national security matters. and the usaa saying you've got to make an example of this guy because this guy gets off on board of medicine. what about, what about a science 2.0? that's right. we need to, we need to crush these guys. we need to sort of put it on on polls outside of the for us to say do not cross us. it doesn't matter. when do you think you're right? you will lose, you know? yeah. is it, these are all feet above your type, right? the haven't charging what is result of her and i put on want to getting a child not if it makes sense. yeah. it is the media once i sort of, you know, the whole of the gallery, but someone who beside, you know, in the 1970s washington has come beside. this is wrong. that's right. i am and they

wouldn't get away with it. but unfortunately, tons of change. i think now the public as you say the public are on saw. busy and now my. busy when it seems, when we had an initial hearing, i used to look at the, the u. s. hearings are the ones that you had to go circ and say, oh my god, no that's i will never win in that kind of hearing, but at least on the chance and strategy, because i've got a public interest defense to sign this information is in the public interest and the government have admitted it was a public interest story because they ended up putting out a statement saying, we're not gonna charge the id, say journalists to read a story because it was a public story. ok. now that means is kids get a sandwich just to public it story. so i thought i was kind of went, but unfortunately they had an invite of the old national security camera now right on that they always do the room. the room or is it from america away? here i was the q that i could somehow not to get your legal press is farrah. the

opposite has happened and boy will not even allowed to side on the risk in getting arrested for it. we just have to say it muted terms out. international partners ever said that the information that i want to use in my to face is too dangerous. even short judge the that's what they always do. all they do and they walk into court and they say national security and they try to shut down your defense. they try to, to prohibit you from using exactly the information that you need to justify your righteous actions. david, please stay with us. we have to take a commercial break. you're watching the whistleblowers, we're going to take a short break and then we're going to come back for more of our conversation with australian whistleblower david mcbride. stay tuned. ah. 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah

ah ah ah a at the end of the 18th century, great britain began to conquer and colonize australia. from the very beginning of

the british penetration to the continent, natives were subjected to severe violence and deliberate extra patient. according to modern historians, in the 1st 140 years, there were at least 270 massacres of local b. both any resistance to the british was answered with doubled cruelty. hundreds of natives were killed for the murder of one settler. indigenous australians were not considered complete people. no wild beast of the forest was ever hunted down. with such unsparing perseverance as they are, men, women and children are shot whenever they can be met with squatter. henry myrick wrote in a letter to his family in england, in 1846. australia's bass is rightly described as blood soaked and races. if at the beginning of colonization, there were one and a half 1000000 indigenous people living on the continent, then by the beginning of the 20th century, their number had decreased till 100000 people. despite the indisputable historical

facts, the problem of full recognition of the crimes of white australians against aborigines has not been resolved so far. 2 ah, we're speaking with australian national security whistleblower david mcbride, who revealed evidence of war crimes committed by australian troops in afghanistan and is being prosecuted for his revelations. david, i've seen in both the australian press and in the british press, that you have widespread support, not just from average people and from peace activists, but from attorneys, and elected officials in both countries who say that you are an example of the kind of national security whistleblower who should be lauded for his revelations. what is it that the australian government is stuck on? is it that the information that you gave to the media was technically classified? is that what this is about? i think that is trying to make an example of me. yeah. i don't. i say that. yes,

that's what their argument is. but if you drill down into it, it doesn't make sense. this is it, this is a most of the stuff that i did to the priest was simply reports of people getting saw in afghanistan on a mountain, you know, over 10 years ago. now it's a waterloo. we publicly knowledge, obviously, which got lot, mike to pretending we were there. ah, it had a lot of books written about it is new movies about this bit of defamation tax. by a famous, an equivalent of a middle owner. when i was accused the bill criminal and he come by and use type and he said them and subsequently i buy bought out all witnesses, all the specials witnesses, and they were discussed in in court apartment. the names of the names were

protected like special forces operation, but they but what went on has already been discussed in court. and none of the information in my case is any, any more serious than that i do. nothing is about any kind of weapons codes or whites capabilities. it's all about who sean, who on a mountain in afghanistan and you knew what? and when i knew it, ah, that's on national security. that's national, embarrassed. and they are trying to say all excited, super, super secret, but it doesn't make sense because it's all been published already. not an antique way. so the one of the problems is you've got 8 more to discuss that if i just insist to the the judge. oh no, we cannot take any. why is this a secret secret? is not much to judge peter. i he cutting i well. ah shoot, you know,

you need to prove that to the doesn't sound subsidiary. it doesn't sound like things we don't already know. right? i just keep insisting saying, we kind of explain to want started so, so important. i mean, we weren't even released. this is how pathetic striders we want even more less details of the fact that we were involved in the coup in chile, which is so kinda shy roland, i wasn't a necessity while we and in the america even the, even the c i a per ad have released some sort of data. yes out. that's free. that's truth. the any stride is what is trans wanted in a 50 years light out. well, i'm not nice to say good, you know, that affects us and it's pretty pathetic and they just using as a weapon and it's a weapon. i think that they just angry um, but i call soon. so they say that's another missed i sense of guilt that on thy cross may in the sense and they broke all of us to their country,

to the law, to ethics. what to do to renew entry on our by broke the law is not that i care about that. i said i brought it there, bit rules that an extent that if they break the law just i top robbers. are they going to be outed? um, they just this sort of petty, petty bureaucrats on a mission of revenge. and they using the law as an excuse to yes, edge on me, david, your attorneys and others say that it is unfathomable, that with all the information that is finally made it into the public domain. that you're still going through the nightmare of a trial. justice burton wrote this quote, perhaps the single most effective indication that there is a commitment to cultural reform is the demonstration that those who have been instrumental in the exposure of misconduct, or are known to have acted with propriety and probity. are regarded as role models

on quote, that seems crystal clear to me and it sounds like a good defense. so where do you think this case goes from here? oh, i think i'm going to draw it off the go be convicted. i think it because once you, you, if you get to control what evidence goes in, you will always win. and for me and i'll, even though they by enemies, they all, it's all national security, its own national security. occasionally they say something is national security, which tells nick ice and doesn't don't mike, i just got to see, you know, they really are what they terrible they is. are they going to get away with it? i think what they're not going to get away with is 40 main job. 20 is because the public and people around the world are getting a really, is absolutely embarrassment for the western world. corporate level war on terror

was killed a 1000000 table and a widget torture and we were delighted and then there were so many scenes. busy wrong, we describe ourselves and you know, there's a couple of people that a guy and a child, you'd be one of them on one of them and on, and no one who actually deal a really bad fix is guided or even had the korean slot. right. and mcbride is going to got a job like it was all he's for that's. that's fine. i think the public again. yeah . david and okay. your case is so well known. have you had the support of whistleblower organizations in australia or even broad? have you, have you been able to get some help from them to get your side of the story into the public eye? where else as your course support come from? didn't every day a boy had had was the last the fort again, you would have found the same whenever he saw myself as

a whisper. you don't really out of it. it's kind of a funny thing, you know, on what you know can bowman. this was a complex, but when you, when you made them, of course they're all really good people or they just like you. and that nice actually help by case quite a bit closer than you would might have been the same if they can single you out that they will paint you as you describe. so yes jubal person above. but there was a whistleblower to go the whistle on the banking system in australia and it was a royal commission in a row commission shut at the banking system. was just as he said, kindly, corrupt i was a whistle blower on me. i'm big, the money laundering and gambling guy be like, man said that all sorts of rules about how to avoid money laundering in sina isn't, et cetera. and he said, went on following any of them, it's a joke and a guy and he's been proved to be right. and i who together we are strong. there was

another guy. he was a detective and he would guy like me had an impeccable record as a detective. and he said he expose the cover up of institute of sexual abuse in a lot of institutional hudson children cobra. and he was pretty right. we had a role committee and very for doc stuff and not just not just the original abuse to the fact that senior figures in the government mentions the messiah. we're actually actively involved in covering it up on that. it's pretty disturbing. now book together with straw it, you know, and that's really helps people, the average person's really they will make it up. they're all bad people and, and so totally. and there was another guy, but a clary, my side just dropped against him and he did the same thing. he, he exposed the fact and australian security services. i know that the, our c, i equivalent when bugged in other countries, offices not for any strategic military benefit,

but to actually give the information to an astride and by soil company. so, you know, company could make the products and he got can beat it, you know, the, the supply got to make to them is like really. and he was like, he can use their secret security services, the commercial advantage. and he was one of joe, and i said, actually, basically when the judge said, huh, the secure services can kill people a totally legally. and the only person that got child is probably support. now, that's always the wrong. and eventually that the charges against the lawyer who helped bring that to life were draws. but it shows up. and this is, something's not roy ashley, i sat astride. i think there are so many of us pointing things out. i do get more, but people escape. i mean, all, quite rightly the government started working a lot of stories, journalists to, we learned,

whistle blowing stories that they chilled because people are scared. and so the government's tactics working in some ways. and that's what's so important for me to keep a small, i'm a fight to make it look like i'm odd and not getting me down. i cannot ready to go into court, a broken man stagger. indeed, i looking sick. they would love that. i would love me to commit suicide out of oppression. ah, they, i would actually uncalled champagne balls if i committed so that would less love it by and that kind of people pass so determined to bring change this salaries and they, you know, their lunch money that they will, guy will drive me and what i'm going to a nice oh that's, you know, i don't care whether a number that a father that is how despicable they strive, not bureaucrats and, but i have to keep small. and because i'm an example to, i'll be able to will come off. yes. yeah. that's independent of it. on the seller

employee who she is there, you know you didn't consider yourself to be a whistleblower. i said, i said the same thing. you're the poster boy for whistleblowers. and so we want to wish you the very, very best of luck, david mcbride. thank you so much for joining us. that's all we have for you today. i'm john kerry aku and this has been the whistleblowers. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 news lou needs to come to the russian state co narrative. i've stayed as i'm turning the northland scheme divest. mm hm. then i can also send up for

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