shall time limits for their stay. so you've still got n g o's. busy working in that part of the well, the so called white helmets made up of stooges actors and even most in areas as well, what needs to be done there? sonya i think that i didn't do the work that when the war ended, there was sort of they were trying to get to terms with each other because a lot of white, countless art syrians as well, who went over to the other side to the terrorist side. and now maybe a lot of them seem differently than they did before. so let's hope they changed the ones who are still in it live. they are the ones were supported by the united states, but also about in europe. you know, the headquarters of the white helmet was in my country, the netherlands. so i mean, they were all supported, n g o,

all supported by western countries if only day in syria. and this is what they're trying to do until today. i'm also blaming about chemical weapons, like o, p, w c. it's the same idea of self killed his own people also guest his people. this is what they are saying already years and years. and we know there are a lot of this is not the case and this organization, the truth didn't come out. so yeah. and they worked me on the mainstream media news . i think the local state department in the us and in your, in your, they know, they know what was going on. and it was all about reading change extra, eliminate didn't exactly go to well, when a certain western partners they try to achieve regime changes in syria, they said they were fighting terrorists. so what happened in 2016 vladimir putin said to washington, a you guys fighting terrorist and syria? you are. then we'll help you in dependent judge journalists. sonya vanda,

and joining us live here on our tea into national. appreciate your time. thanks for joining. thank you. i thank you for joining us as well for this program. live from moscow will be back at the top of the hour with more of your friday talk to ah ah ah ah ah

hello and welcome to cross sack where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . the west presentation of the ukraine conflict is always been muddled and confusing. remember the phrase, as long as it takes that is not a strategic goal now or presented with as long as it takes pertains to the amount of conflict. it doesn't pertain to the amount of assistance. do you understand what that means? i cross talking, changing narratives. i'm joined by my guest, karen krakowski and mount jackson. she's retired united states air force, lieutenant colonel, having served both an essay and the office of secretary events in washington. we have on the team on the on of he is a writer as well as a military and political analysts. and in berlin we have the cavort. i'll marcial and he is founder of seriana analysis or across our rules. and the fact that means you can jump any time you want, and i always appreciate, i'm a, let me go to you. i mean, i already mentioned it in the introduction. so tell me,

i mean, i know english isn't your 1st language here, but maybe you have special powers that i don't, as long as it takes pertains to the amount of conflict that doesn't pertain to the amount of assistance is that, does that make any sense to you, it's a native speaker of english doesn't make any sense to me at all. go ahead. andre. yeah, it doesn't make any sense in any point of view from our strategic operational or crumbling stickle for that matter. so it's basically a political statement designed for the internal construction assumption in later in, in the united states. and it has no descriptive followers whatsoever. and we'll all, harley, it goes with the powers that be especially when you look at the lakers. there's not also makes sense. what's going on, karen? it's got to you amount. jackson, it's very interesting to me we, we went from as long as it takes nothing about ukraine without ukraine,

ukraine. it becomes completely dependent economically and militarily on the united states. but ukraine has to decide its own terms and conditions and sit down with negotiations. i mean, you can go at this at any kind of trajectory you want and it all, it's very, very confusing. now the reality in the ground is made it that way, but their, their policy adjustments don't keep up with reality, but is the problem and the public is picking up on it as well. carry yes, certainly i think than that of information it around the world available about what's really happening in ukraine and also why why these things are happening. it's getting out there and they can't even keep it away from the limited interest in limited li, interested americans who aren't really that interested accept it. we have a terrible budget deficit and americans are suffering economically and they see this money flowing into ukraine. so they're starting to ask and that information now is widely available to people that are interested. they're having

a very difficult time controlling the narrative. here it said controlling the narrative kevorkian. let me go to you in berlin. i mean i, we had the revelation from seymour hersh about the destruction of the north stream pipelines. what has been the reaction of the german political elite in the media? because apparently i didn't know this. sy, hersh is this crazy old man. that's all he is. i thought he was one of the greatest living journalists of our time. what's the german response? the german officer respond is that seem a hers is a blogger, is not a journalist, is, is not an investigative journalist, isn't blogger sitting behind his lapse of and just writing some illusion, and joseph morale just the blogger as well. i mean, we're all bloggers in david in the eyes and anything outside of the oceanography of here in germany is abashed, is smeared, and he has been downgraded, and the media has a very strong influence over to public opinion in germany. and they're able to

project is him when he intellectual. had jim went over to people, right? the only, in my opinion, 2 political parties in germany that spoke about the seymour hersh article is the left ring party, the linker, and the if the other, i think parties arrest the for other political parties. and especially the cheap bolduc of parties who formed the coalition, david because the article of seymour hersh, because there is a war of narratives, right, this is also information working. so at the beginning, few, the 1st few weeks, 2 months, 3 months, probably one year. they can manipulate the people, but after one year it's very difficult for the really information not to be so faced and for the people to be educated about the and now you can see even germans . they're speaking very quietly with each other because they are afraid to speak publicly and loud in their surroundings about these cases. and whether or not germany should continue and it's policy towards ukraine and to be embedded with the united states in disregard. so at the beginning,

it might not be the best my job at the work supportive of your brain, but the support is now diminishing because the people can carry also the burden economically on their shoulder. right? exactly, and against the, their own self interest here. you know, onto the biggest problem and all of this and you and i have talked about this before, is the framing of this is good versus evil when, when you have that kind of framing, it can make you feel good, particularly if it doesn't impact you. ok, just virtue signaling, but it is convert just told us here. now the impact is being felt, you know, the virtual signaling kind of fades away here. and when you do it, when you frame it is good versus evil, context doesn't matter. and geopolitical realities don't matter, and that's why this narrative is bumbling. it's been, it's been fumbling from the very, from the get go, go ahead. andre, are in the last a week or 2. we have a dramatic change in the wood, in narrative, across the mainstream media in united states for example. and you can also note,

is there a dis off form transfer as for example. and if there was a dramatic change, and i would have wall street journal new york times and meeting that yeah, garage. and despite the fact losing of 1000000 group surveyed, they still, you know, on offensive begin the ground thinking they're down sam villages. and it was like the switch was relieved, and it has a very rational explanation to it. yeah. are, you can all lie only for so long before they're out. it begins to say it is measured in the organ, the world when there is still, there are still many alternative sources of information and people who have their own a very good demand. very interesting job politics. and everybody begin to, well, you know, are all these are, those are blogger school count, walk life cycle,

and then they begin. blog portions, let alone about professional school can point out immediately. she's scared and their mood of desperation really at the ball in their bout way and the i spoke about it. yes, there will begin their article. you have to take a look at their latest e. sure. all the so called our intellectual magazine, such as the foreign affairs, which is their rag old, their neo, we've got on here, and you'll get a bull article bar article there. and you assume you're out there how desperate they are and what not on shondae that the point is here, you're out. you're absolutely right. yeah. let me go to karen right now. i mean from the get go, this has been an elite project. ok. that's what it's all about. and i'm glad that on that i brought up foreign affairs. this has nothing to do with ukraine. it's about american hegemony. it's about taking russia out 1st to focus their attention

on china. that's always what it's always been. and oh, by the way, make sure germany and russia don't have any kind of economic relationship, because that's what major germany prospers. it would make germany think twice about how it feels about ukraine and the united states. if this is only an elite project that has been from that way since the start, karen, go ahead. that's, that's absolutely true. and if you can see it that way, we can understand more about about how things have unfolded. but, you know, it occurs to me that don't you know, the lensky, a former comedian. and he's been very public with all of his, you know, he is ukraine for 2 americans who know nothing about ukraine. zelinski is all that we know. and increasingly, he is becoming more of a comedian and i think americans are not really warming to him as much as he might think. and certainly not as much as congress is. i know the democratic congress in particular, you know, he received a, you know, he addressed the congress, you know, lot not too long ago. and they were standing ovation m, as in a craney and flag,

have you ever seen a foreign flag on the well, the congress keep going to know that. yeah, i mean it's, it's crazy, but i think the americans who see this and of course, you know, we're, we're a very short attention span americans flip channels. we stream our news or whatever . we don't even watch news, but when we see zalinski, he is not someone who inspires americans. i have no idea. he inspires ukrainians, but he does not inspire americans and the things that he gets publicity for here often is that his lack of a respect his, you know, he, he dresses a is if you would, every one parent, he's a panhandle or if that's what he is guinea, he's an ungrateful panhandle. i that's north sky. a suggestion of that, he's a trend user. he may not be, but he certainly appears to me what i think we know our co pay. oh okay. care and i don't want to get in that. i don't want to go down that path. let me just say to

you, in our audience, there was a lot of lot known about zelinski in ukraine and in russia before he got the headline. so i'll leave it at bag. okay. okay, cuz i can let me go to you. i would like to jump in. i don't have champion, please do go ahead de style of addressing from the ukrainian side to the wish. and we're just very disrespected, for example, zalinski demands ukraine, demands the former ambassador of ukraine in gym, and he was a worshipper bandito and he was a yeah, polishing bonded i in the in the gym and media, he demands the gym and side was sent submarines. now, for your client, he demands gemini to sent f 16 to ukraine. they're not even addressing their of so called allies in a respectful way. therefore, i think even among the popular base having gemini, the people are questioning whether they should really deliver this type of weapon, sir, to ukraine. and especially that the information is sir, facing now through the social media platforms that show clearly the neo nazi seen

in ukraine. right. so imagine there are photographers toward the f, b for the reuters and the rest. they are really suffering to publish a photo where debbie is no swastika or davies than you or nazi logos into what those they are doing. really, they have a lot of work in their hands to hide this photos. and despite that, today, the 8th be posted to v as part of the video in which we can see one of the screenshots, one of the officers, he's wearing an isis flag on his a shorter. it's crazy, i got a guy, i pull my what little hair i have out when i try to explain this to people. they do say it's propaganda. it's not true. that's what we're facing here. folks. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on changing narrative steak without it. ah

ah ah, ah ah, a question of them. i mean, you flip a coin of water. if you can actually keep what you might look and you live muscles, if you look on the initial dwelling club, not to get a dealer post on zillow, wallabies, you can use to put value when you, when you do the origin. but you also still was done the louis with jim

o'shea. i didn't know so much of the country. i've only been just to do what i see . the genie bosses though, group gear motivation, says do a combo sup a welcome back to cross stock. were all things are considered on peter labelle to remind you were discussing, changing narratives. ah, okay, let's go back to andre in washington state. i'm sorry i, you probably know as well as you probably feel the same way i do in watching what's been going on in ukraine, not since the beginning of last year, but all the way back to 2014. and you know what i'm getting at here, what i find really frustrating is the lack of context. there's so little context.

if i say to what i'm question, you know, where you, peter, why are you so passionate about this? and i always say, because this was inevitable, considering the, the west ignored the antecedents of how we got here, the minsk accords, this whole product that the, the whole, the entire push to put ukraine into nato and all of this. and you say you show them what is what cia direct william burns had to say. i can go, i can go on for hours and hours and they just, their eyes just gloss over because they have never given the context of this. the remember, unprovoked, unprovoked, unprovoked. this was the most provoked war in modern history. andre. yeah, decker decks. the zation of the whole affair is the main map of the actual and shaping narrative. and when you're on the stand off, they don't think they are good. and i will say they're necessary and they're good

at it either about the only thing they can do actually it can any practical terms, is that the, are android sending off or to basically when you look at the more going on america, on the western politics. it is primarily, it's a narrative, i'm wondering, is there a legal for optical thanks which are legal to situation and rule at day you on the issue or supplying your brain was ours and money. you're going to see yourself, how foolish you know this all people themselves who do, who are the american longest and decision makers, especially within the beltway, they have no clue what they're doing when they have no clue what they have the week . because they don't have a down to south, idaho, idaho, oregon, physical and intellectual. how to learn how to program, to handle information,

and then what, what comes down to them. they have the blog, again, they know have one b, c, d o m. and don't think they know is know how to count the letter to you all. and gus and purpose is when you look at this, you will american generals who dominate mainstream media b at general key and general contract there. whatever those think things on people who are view senior yours there they are elected on their own. was that it was wondering a warfare eat well, andrea, considering the generals, you just mentioned what, what can what success can they personally point to? they can't. yeah. karen, karen, i mean, i wouldn't, i thought was really painful me for me. i mean, i've, i'm blacklisted. i can't go to ukraine for obvious reasons, but i before um, before 2014 and a little bit after i went there many times. okay. and what really pisses painful for me is that in, i've mentioned this before on this program,

is it the more the west helps ukraine, the smaller it gets geographically and it's population not to speak of g d p. and these other things here. i mean, it's a failed state and who wants a failed state? you have all this arms flowing in there. no one really knows what to go except for the people that are commandeering it. they know where it's going here. i mean that you feel you worked in the military and i'm not asking you to speak for the military. but i mean that the level of cynicism here it's, it's grotesque. karen, and i think actually within even the military today, not the spokespeople and not the retired generals like betray us, but in the military today. i think they are extremely aware of the stupidity and insanity of, of the u. s. policy here. and the reason i say that is, we know this is about russians is about us versus russia to contain control, destroy russia, in some way. we can russia, we have, we have the rand documents to show that that's the objective. but the military

understands, well, the u. s military today knows, well that they can't take on russia. we, a nato understands the nato officers understand. they cannot take on russia. so this, this is kind of a fantasy that they're all kind of, you know, the emperor has no clothes and everyone is nodding oh buddy, so beautifully, so powerful, you know, but i think they understand the reality. but the problem for me is the concern that i haven't, i think people should have is that because this is an emotional, ideological kind of conflict on the american side and among nato and great britain and even ukraine. that winning a war may not be well winning a worse winning the war on their site. that's not possible, but damaging russia causing the amount of chaos that we don't even want to talk about. obviously, chemical nuclear major destruction of human beings of human life. that is still

possible for the us, nato and ukraine. less so ukraine, probably the u. s. in nato, to, to conduct an operation like that to cause gross damage and then say, well, we're done, we're done. we, we've heard, and this is, this is a desperate move, like you said. the desperation that we see in the western media mouthpiece is foreign. foreign affairs, for example, supposed to be the intellectual gaia, the very desperate and desperation in a dying empire. and we, the united states are that dying empire. that's not a good thing. it's dangerous. and so, you know, kind of to keep our fingers crossed a little bit. yeah. makes sent everything that the promise, you know, the, the part of the problem is here is it in, i've talked about this here for almost a solid year. every single program is on this topic. there's no learning curve here, and that's what we're all terrified of. ok, b and because it's being become so emotional, clark and berlin, i want to ask you a very simple question and i'm not saying you represent the german people. but what

is germany getting out of this? ok, i mean you're industrial, as your industrial base is being severely damaged. okay. the, the wonderful success of postwar germany was it's prosperity. ok. that is being challenged right now. and it's, and all the talk about ukrainian sovereignty. what is the u. s. done to german sovereignty, go head in berlin. peter, the biggest loser of this war will be ukraine, and the 2nd biggest loser of this, or will be germany and germany will be she severely about the in the economy, her in an economic sector. and i think when i make means, we all know that the nato's goal in germany sued the industrialized country. we all know that the goal is to cut the economic integration between the russian and the german side. because a good relations between germany and russia means that is stronger asia and this people up the region, they will never needs nato again. so the goal is to weaken germany,

to make it dependent on the united states. security was an economic wise, and unfortunately they are politicians here in germany and they, they follow the american, the, it's right the update, the gym as you didn't want to send video, heard things but you know, how much pressure there was on the gym and the government on olaf shows him said, i'm not saying i'm not giving him a like a justification. but there was a huge pressure from the media from the political scene and from the elliots here in germany on o love show sent this year for thanks. and i suspect that in a few years, gemini will be weakening to extend that they will depend only on their agricultural sector and they will import the gas, dumpy knightstead 3 times higher, g, b, o has surprised when they, when they used to buy from russia and therefore, the industry with the mice. yep. it came to last. we had on away from a provider, you know, history as well as i do, i it, some of our viewers may know that, you know, at, towards the end of the 2nd world war, the, that was the morgenthau plan to di and just to lackeys, jacqueline,

who would have thought they were going to implemented in 2023. i to amazing. okay. andre, how does nato equate himself itself in this conflict right now? i think it's, it's very existence is in play right now because he was never designed to 5. i fight appear conventional conflict. they, they didn't have a plan b, as you pointed out here, what cents worth. i mean it, it was, i don't what i was going up. it was a supper club. okay. do you have to join your never gonna have to fight? you could have the american umbrella. and this is the, the biggest gross miscalculation ears because russia said, you know, we will find of nato expansion intolerable. and we will react, and they did. and in a future of nato, are there would have to go back to the 1000 when you want. the sam bar and saw was the russian ultimate, which was delivered by eastern level. and we're all remember one of the key points

on this all to make own while it was basically least hope demands door or all back needed. but still there brought us on $990.00. so i was told my friend on all of the central law office of russian difference be the state was human who stated that it would all demon sweat bog european vargas made. so ne, gone, or mostly it's lovely to call a good paper tiger, but logically it is tool is will be able to come back a large combined arms operation design will defeat the peer irrational with the ease appear. in fact, sometimes in some field says, a bonded p r a level as carol nailed it back to me, there is a desperation dash. and they understand of the very existence of nago, which for the last 30 years, as they wanted to say was in the start over mission. and they go to find good

enough enemy, they have the animal. now what's the problem with the fact that they are saying is arizona address? so just before existence date, you know why this enemy and there's a desire to at back you can capture it and do something bad. at bar l is a mistake of already there were existence of made that isn't space here and we can see already how both european union is beginning go. well, show c s cracks and labor will fall. so this area and then let me give the last the last 50 seconds to karen. karen, i have a prediction here. russia will po rail on the battlefield. it will dictate its terms. but you know what western leads and their pliant media will say? well, they didn't make it to the english channel. we won. ok, that's what they're going to do. that's what they're going to do. the 40 seconds. go ahead. well, i think, i think that given we have an election

a presidential election cycle starting in 2024. we have elections in 2024 biden says he wants to run again. that means the bite and team blink and all these neocons, they need a victory, so they will create one and they will call it one. and i think your proposal there is fine. they didn't make it to the english channel. so we want this whole thing is about narrative management. i think that they are frustrated in d. c right now because they are trying to figure out how to make it work, how to say what they think needs to be said. the problem is we sacrificed all the people, the people, the human beings in ukraine. yeah. the german economy, reputation of nato never will be. i would even say the reputation of the west in the eyes of the global majority, the global south, that's actually one of the biggest. that's all the time we have fascinating discussion. i want to thank my guess in berlin, mount jackson, and in washington state. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time. remember crossed octopus.

ah, ah. a form. the initial you want to pull up. not to get a deal with can use to put body when you do do or 2. but you also still done a

what i see the student both use the little gear motivation. so do you do it on both? ah, the headlines about the international nato plans to create a fleet of spy satellites, to provide for the blocks military mission. russia says it views them at the local park if any, that used to help you train on the faculty. also ahead for corporate meeting in the united states, still telling the story of your grade, they started from invasion if they don't know why to invade, if they don't know that you great in government was bothering those people for years and slaughtering them if they don't know that they're in bed with nazis, literally not these and people have no idea that that's what happened for an hour.