crimes of the m i 5 is on the list, will blow up next and will be back at the top of the hour with ah, the, those of us who live in the west and our citizens of western countries know that our governments like to talk about the rule of law, we're all supposed to be proud that we live by the rule of law under governments

that respect their constitutions, their basic laws and court precedents. with that said, those of us who have worked for our countries perspective, intelligent services and national law enforcement organizations. no, that's just not the way things are in real life. certainly are government talk a lot about law and order and human rights. but what happens when one realizes those same governments are breaking the law both domestically and internationally. what happens when you can't report wrong doing through your chain of command, because it's the chain of command committing the crime. i'm john kerry. aku, we'll talk about that and more on this episode of the whistleblowers. ah. 2 2 2 2 2 2 any mesh on is a former intelligence officer from m, i 5, the case domestic intelligence service. when she began her career with

a british government mash on intended to become a diplomat. but as happens in many countries, in the midst of the process, she was recruited by m i 5 and sent to work in the organizations counter subversion department known as f 2. she later told the yorkshire post that her job included, quote, trying to track down old communist trotskyites and fascists, which seemed like a waste of time, unquote. during the 1992 general election meshawn and her partner david schaler were tasked with providing summaries on literally anybody who stood for election to parliament. national leaders said that she and schaler were horrified by the scale of the investigations and they argued and my 5 should not be in the business of spying on people who had never even been suspected of committing a crime. 2 years later, she and schaler transferred to t branch, which investigated iris terrorism in 1996. however, life for both meshawn and schaler changed forever. in october of that year,

both of them resigned from m. i 5 with the intention to blow the whistle on crimes they had seen committed inside that service. these crimes included maintaining secret files on the government's ministers responsible for overseeing the intelligence services. illegal phone taps, making false statements to government overseers. failing to prevent bombings by the irish republican army failing to prevent the 1994 bombing of the israeli embassy in london. and the attempted assassination of then libyan leader, mar, fee, mash on and schaler went on to the media with proof of their allegations. and that's when their problems began. we want to introduce our guest. now any meshawn, welcome. any 1st i want to ask you about your decision to enter. am i 5 in the 1st place? you strike me as someone who has a conscience, someone who would never have been comfortable working on the other side of the law . it's clear that illegalities allegedly committed by m, i 5,

bothered you from the outset. i was exactly the same way at the cia. tell me about joining m i 5 and about your initial impressions when you started reading those secret files, files that were clearly inappropriate. so i was recruited in 990 long time ago now and, and this was one year off to my father had been put on an official footing. the 1st time in 80 years of its existence with the security have attacked. and also when the new official secrets act came into play, which was there to stop whistlebury, that was based in 1989. during my recruitment, i was told time and time again that they had changed. that they no longer had to look at counter espionage. because the soviet union was disintegrating, they no longer had so for red, under the bed and political actress in the you k. because the soviet union was disintegration. and they needed a new generation of intelligence officer to investigate terrorist. and that's what

i thought i was signing up to do the recruitment processes about 10 months, in my case, it can go between 6 to a year in terms of recruitment. and i was reassured, every time i got through, i didn't think i was the right person to this job. and every time i still kept getting through and i thought by the end of it, i was quite reassured. and that it would be a good job to do and make a difference or potentially have life actually. i mean, it sounds idealistic, but that's what i wanted to do. so that's why i joined in terms of the things i saw, an inside my 1st disillusionment was the fact that i was posted to the red under the bed section, which was name is to where they were still looking at per school from versus to school activists. that social and we saw a huge number of us when i say we my and my phone partner david shader became the primary, whistler in 1997 for

a huge number of files held not just on regular u k. systems, but also people who are in politics, many of whom became part of the labor government in the 1997 general election. so you have a situation where the notional political masters of, and my 5, i'm deb i 6. the foreign intelligence agency has filed, held them so you know, in terms of a democracy who's got the power. when you and david schaler resigned from m, i 5, your intention was to blow the whistle on illegality. david took the documents to prove your allegations to the mail on sunday, which published them in august of 1997. what was the immediate fall out from the government? what was the response from the public committee pull out from the government was interesting because this was in union acted landslide victory of tony blair. and we thought, you know, labor government off to, well, how long of a conservative government in the u. k. would mean that they would take all allocations most seriously. what we want to do is create a, a bit of

a scandal and ensure that there was going to be appropriate inquiry into how the spies were running a mark. and to make sure that there were reforms put in place to regulate what they were doing, then they needed to be tighter than even the reforms put in place in 980. so that was a me, it didn't quite work out that way because one week off to the allegations came out and there was a huge press push for an inquiry one week after we made the allegations. princess diana dotted in paris. so everything else called blanked out with a huge media hysteria about the death of princess diana. so you can try and trim most things in life and try and plan for those things in life, but something like that with on a different scale. and so we found the last in europe on the run and living in hiding and without much press support. off until that point though,

the press whether can you get angry about the government response? because the government try to in junk them to try to get them tried to shut them up in terms of pressurising for a proper inquiry into what responds we're doing in a judge. blocked the mail on sunday from publishing the allegations you were making that concern. the i r a specifically. but what about the other information? what about the attempt on could afi, for example, what was the reaction from the fremont, from the courts and from the public? this is a weird one because the good article as it became known, which was an m, i 6 funded backing and l quite a group in libya to try and estimate for and head of state which went wrong. he killed innocent people. okay, how much was, can it get? was the biggest case and this is why we actually question. this is why david wanted to go public. and this was a story that did not get published initially. and he had to fight to get it out that finally, officer about a year when we're living and hiding. ddc decided to make

a panorama special. and the mel sunday and the sunday times decided to run with the story to finally. and it was a point that david was arrested and put into prison and had to spend 4 months in the taurus, hell hole waiting at a failed extradition attempt back to the u. k. so in terms of how people reacted that, the and how the government reacted. the press was incandescent. they wanted on. so they wanted to know if this is true. and what happened with the black government just came out and said this is pure fantasy. it has no basis in fact, and there's never been a proper police investigation into it. now when ah, david returned the u. k in 2000 and was put on trial in 2002. have to sentenced by 2003. and then he got as possible back and when we went to pick it up from new scotland yard, the police officer said,

we're really sorry. we were just following orders. we had to do this get through this process. but we knew what you're saying was true. the cover up with astonishing and the fact that the cover up was so systematic at that point. and yet, you know, you for the foot 2011 window with the nato bombing of libya because they was humanitarian aid and get off. he was dragged out and tortured and murdered that point, and that was seen as a glorification of the west power in 2011. so the moral slide between what happened in 1996. what have me, 2011 in terms of perception in the west is terrifying the fact that we can all of this sort of thing rather than keep it secret and condemn it. shortly after the mail on sunday published your allegations, you and david schaler were forced to leave the country for france. you truly believed if you were to return to the u. k, you would be arrested. but you went back to london and much to your surprise,

you were not arrested. so you returned again to france. but in 1998 after david began working with a british media on a documentary about the cadet plot. he was charged under the official secrets act, and the french detained him at the request of the british for 4 months. what happened then? i knew i was getting back to be arrested and i was indeed arrested at the immigration gate and got to get food. and then i was taken off to a counter terrorism suite in central london police station and then interrogator, the rest, the day with key point is i was never charged with anything, let alone convicted whatever. because i hadn't done anything. right. you know, i did was, you know, support what david was trying to do. so yes, i was arrested, i was kept on police spell, which means you didn't have money, but you have to keep upstream bell and going back every month. and, and one of david brothers was, will say, treated this way and to his best friends as well. so it was very much

a case of trying to intimidate david by threatening legal penalties against the people who love the most were speaking with m, i 5, whistleblower and mash on on the odyssey that she and her partner david schaler experienced after going public with allegations of official wrong doing, we're going to take a short break and go deeper into this important story. stay tuned. the. 2 2 2 2 2 0, what happens when you make digital games with actual physical sport? something like digital? yes, there's yes. because on is preparing to host the 1st ever gains of the future. a cyber content with a physical dimension. one of the innovators, eager to study, is on the verge of redefining sports and gaming. he tells us what's behind this

synergy, and if it's the future ah . 2 welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry alco. we're speaking with m . i 5, was the blower? any mesh on about her revelations of illegality and the difficult fall out for she and her partner any in august of 2000. you and david schaler did a very brave thing. you returned to the u. k. both of you knew what likely a way to do there, but you did it anyway. tell us what went into your decision to return. i think there are a number issues around why we decided to return at that point. we've been living in hiding and in excel for 3 years at that point and from and from my perspective, i could still travel back and forth because i'd never been charged with anything. but for david once, he'd been released from the french prison because the prince failed to extra

vitamin 1998. it meant that if he had left crawls to go to any other europe country, he would have been arrested and probably extradited from any other country. france had a particular nor back in the 1990. which said that if you are a whistler, it was deemed to be a political offense and fated not extradite people for those political offences. so we taken advice before we went, falls, we knew that was going to be legal protection. and that's why you and so, yes, the, the courage that david showed when he went back to face the music that they say and to stand trial with quite exceptional. i mean, i had to do it myself without having to stand trial. but he knew he would have to, he knew he'd probably be convicted and he would probably go back to prison. and after 4 months in paris, that was pretty bad. but he still did it because he wanted to have his evidence origin to the public records in a public court of law. what happened with it?

he returned in 2000 didn't go on trial until the end of 2002, during which there are a number of legal hearings which actually shut down every line of defense he could have used. so by the time he got in front of his jury of his peers, he was not allowed to say why he'd done what he'd done in any way. so of course your convictions and he went back to prison. it was disgusting. this is the way the all whistleblowers are treated and i think can i'm talking from british perspective web. back in the day we face 2 years per charge in prison. that trying to increase that 14 years per charge in prison. now not just for the whistleblower, but also the journalist. of course what we're looking at in the usa and you will know because you've been to prison is if you blow the whistle, you can face up to 35 years in prison. a per charge of chelsea manny did, and it was snowden. he will probably face life and julian songs. but not that he's

a whistle though, he's a publisher, but even the penalties were pulling everything over in the usa. so anyone who blew the whistle and anyone who then is told to go and face the music and wants to put it on the public record. what they play, the whistle on faces is huge. penalty in the west and people explore 8 countries like russia, or china, or iran, whatever for stigmatizing and penalizing dissidence. that's precisely what the west of doing when they treat whistleblowers in this way to the british government tried hard to convict and to imprison david, even if they decided not to charge you with a crime, you were by his side through the entire time in the end david was given 6 months in jail for violating the official secrets act. we all know this incredibly short sentence was meant as a fee saving measure for the government. when governments go after former employees for violating the official secrets act or in the united states, the espionage act,

they usually seek decades in prison. they didn't get it in this case. what happened? how did this play out? poly and he was facing a match for 6 years in prison. so that was 3 charges, a t as each under the 1989 official secrets act after he was convicted that before he was sentenced, i was allowed to give a mitigation to the judge. this is the only time either of us had ever been up to anything in public, in court about why we've done what we've done. so i explained that and explained our motivation explained what had happened to explain everything. and the judge actually said that he had been minded to give david 13 those chris and he was going to give them 6. so that sounds really light compared to what goes on in the u. s. and it sounds really like what might come into play in the u. k. when they bring in what's going to call the new espionage act, which is an amalgamation of the old official secret fact which is going to indeed

increase the terrorists who with los angeles to 14 years volunteer. so this is all to discourage others. of course, it's a power play and i think it's so important to remember that people do not blow the whistle just because they want to, you know, get a certain bit of glory or whatever they ruined allies by doing it. they turn their lives inside out and upside down. and they can never again, a professional status as you know, as i know, and for people to be penalized and even worse and more badly with the senses. you know, 14 years in prison because you are a treasurer or something like that. you're not sure i should trying to protect the rights for your country and your family says you're trying to protect the very nature of democracy. rather than trying to allow the government to encroach on all civil liberties. i cannot say this strongly enough at this point as well because one of the things i learned through wishes of which was like and also having the

privilege to it with other with letters including the cell. and also what would hack to this is that the more we will move into the online world, and the more that we live our lives online, the easier it is for the spies to look at us to follow is to watch it. and if we don't have people, most recent, of course, edward snowden, which is almost 10 years ago, coming out and saying this is what is happening, you know, between nation states and corporations and the hackers and criminal hackers and all that sort of thing. we are so vulnerable, we are sitting dogs with our lives on line. so we need to be aware of it. we need to spread the word about it, and we need to protect people who come out and reveal assessments. nation robin prosecute them and peskin put them in prison. that's just disgusting. one of the things that is consistent for all whistleblowers is after the actual act of revealing evidence of waste, fraud, abuse,

and illegality. life is jeff never the same. how have things changed for you and for david over the past 20 years? oh, as a big question. and no, i totally agree. and i would say this is true or whistleblower if across all sectors. not just intelligence government military. although we tend to be the ones who pay the biggest penalty, so most people will lose their professional reputation. they might lose their with all to earn a living. and that might lose, you know, to homes or their families, whatever it is, which is bad enough. and it should not happen if people want to expose wrong doing and improve the work organizations. but we are the ones who, if you know, face prisons go to prison as well. so i think the win win situation would be a such a strategy where people can be encouraged to expose wrongdoing and not should be public key ordered for it. but just be recognized and not just treated as

troublemakers. so that would be the 1st step. but yes, in terms of how you rebuild a life of doing that, it's an incredibly hard, i suppose for me. i mean, it cost me my relationship with david schaler that disintegrated in 2007 but also is trying to rebuild what i found useful was trying to learn lessons from what i gone through. particularly when it came to media minute play session. because i watched how the major been manipulated during david's case. i mean, i remember sitting in the courtroom when his judgment, final judgment. read out. and it said david chela hadn't done. we've gone from money, no lives who put it risk, blah blah blah. and the next day, all the headlines said exactly because it so, so i don't how did that happen? so the media manipulation and moving forward to what's going on online and deep

fakes. and the rankings and the disappearances of articles online is frightening. but i think the key issues that i've really brought forward in my work now is about privacy, because during those 7 years of the we're supplying story, you know, going on the run living in hiding in the next. i'm going to court cases double blow . i never felt that i had privacy my at home to this day. i didn't feel i have privacy talking on the phone with my emails in my own home isa. i'm not saying that that's happening. i just aware of that potential potential threat. so this is why i'm, i've dive deep into a lot of these, those technical issues, trying to check out how we can protect ourselves, both individually and societally and democratic a as well. so i'm going to do a shameless plug. i have a new book out. it's called a proxy mission and i'm sorry about that. but and also i also,

i work with an organization called the world ethical data for him and the world ethical patient ation to try and look at piece of issues and take deep dive into them. and to mitigate some of these issues as well. particularly the intersection teen corporations, government and the state and government and things like that because people are not aware. one of the potential threats and 2 of the potential tarnishes which might be much more utopian, robin dystopian than we have no hope. so it's all that education, it's all about trying to make people aware. and i think that's what with a blow to that just the, the think this is the key motivation for all of us. i think with it to try make people aware. so even though my whistle playing was 25 years ago, i still try and make people aware now of, of the things that i find fascinating and interesting. and i can see might be a potential threat. but there might be potential bonuses and benefits from

the technology that we're now working with, particularly as we now will have to live on life on line any. you have been one of julianna's sanchez, most outspoken supporters in the u. k. tell us what's new and julian's case, we know what is probably his final appeal of his extradition to the united states is being heard right now. we've come to understand those of us who support julian. she expect nothing from the u. k. government, what are julian's chances in the british court system at this point? is there any hope for him in the european court of human rights? and is there any reason to believe that the new prime minister re, she's soon act will be any different toward julian than boys johnson and list trust were. i think my face probably said it all, and i would doubted the british system is raked and offer they were a bit of a vessel state towards the us. anyway, we know that, you know, they're out of the you, they need the us bus. the whole point about the,

the song case is that he is not straight in publisher and journalist award winning . he's a global award over the years and he is imprisoned in the u. k. unwanted by the us on the espionage child, which is apparently so the, the key point is one, it should not be happening to someone who is notion american, who hasn't been a spy, is not involved in espionage. she is a publisher, pure and simple. he is a case around him as well, means that all journalists around the world are equally vulnerable to predictions by the us legal system. anyone who writes anything that might challenge us again, many of it, you know, some sort of war somewhere in some country, most people don't even have an interest. and of course the people in the country are going to be totally interested in totally horrify by it. but it just means that

the reporting proper journalism is going to be stifled. because if that can happen, julian, as an award winning global journalist, it can happen to anyone else. i remember a quote i, i think it was in new york times edit her way back in the day with geico bill. tell her. and he was one of the very 1st journalist partners that julian worked with along with a guardian in the u. k. and the new times editor said, we don't consider him, a publisher, said him, just the source. and i found this absolutely astonishing. because either he's a publisher, which means that okay, he's published that the new york times much that means you equally vulnerable or she is a source, but the source protection of the forces is the prime direct to any good jugglers. so how can you say he just before not protect him? so in a sense that shown the whole concept of proper investigative journalism in both

feet with both barrels. i can't believe that the editor in york times at that point set up. so, julian's case is so important, it's such a case of principle as well as the case of a poor man being tortured psychologically for years now. and robin's wrongfully tact. but it's such a principle for janice around the world. and i can't believe that more journalists and shame on them for not doing it across the us and not standing up for him. thank you so much to our guest, any mash on and thank you for joining us. i'm john. carry on to the next time for another episode of the whistleblowers the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah, ah,

since the beginning of its history, the united states of america has officially declared the striving for freedom and people's rights to happiness. however, in reality, having won independence, american colonists headed for the total extermination of the indigenous population of the continent, american indians were deprived of their land. local residents were driven into reservations and given the worst agricultural territories. while the best land was appropriated by white colonizers, the strongest blow to american indian tribes was the extermination of buys of native americans lived by hunting these wild animal, colonists slaughter the bison, and in fact, made them nearly extinct. every buffalo dead is in indian gone, said colonel richard dod, a veteran of the bloody and vicious indian wars cynically the indigenous population

was simply exterminated. u. s. army general philip sheridan, expressed the essence of this policy in the infamous words. the only good india is a dead indian, the genocide of native americans of north america lead to a demographic catastrophe. the exact number of deaths is still unknown, but the number of victims is in millions. having been the majority on the continent before the indigenous people make up less than 3 percent of the us population today . ah, ah, ah,

for there is no trust in you, you are incompetent in stage us. you created not these narrow borders, then stood up the situation. process you at envoy takes a much less the need is on the money the 2015 minutes peaceably then saying they are in different god for a cause directly to lead to the playing conflict. press enter to devolve, so was the major. you go and how the city of autumn offs in the republic pipe taking it easily and cut me off his supply. root. nigerian authorities call upon finland, stalls. i'm t gov of an active if.