the, those of us who live in the west and our citizens of western countries know that our governments like to talk about the rule of law. we are all supposed to be proud that we live by the rule of law under governments that respect their constitutions, their basic laws and court precedence. with that said, those of us who have worked for our country's respective intelligence services and national law enforcement organizations. no, that's just not the way things are in real life. certainly are governments talk a lot about law and order and human rights. but what happens when one realizes those same governments are breaking the law both domestically and internationally. what happens when you can't report wrong doing through your chain of command because it's the chain of command committing the crime. i'm john kerry. aku, we'll talk about that and more on this episode of the whistleblowers. the

news. 2 2 2 2 2 2 any mesh on is a former intelligence officer from m, i 5, the case domestic intelligence service. when she began her career with the british government mash on intended to become a diplomat. but as happens in many countries, in the midst of the process, she was recruited by m i 5 and sent to work in the organizations counter subversion department known as f 2. she later told the yorkshire post that her job included, quote, trying to track down old communist trotskyites and fascists, which seemed like a waste of time, unquote. during the 1992 general election mesh on and her partner david schaler were tasked with providing summaries on literally anybody who stood for election to parliament. nash on later said that she and schaler were horrified by the scale of the investigations and they argued and my 5 should not be in the business of spying on people who had never even been suspected of committing a crime. 2 years later,

she and schaler transferred to t branch, which investigated iris terrorism in 1996. however, life for both meshawn and schaler changed forever. in october of that year, both of them resigned from my 5, with the intention to blow the whistle on crimes they had seen committed inside that service. these crimes included maintaining secret files on the government's ministers responsible for overseeing the intelligent services. illegal phone taps, making false statements to government overseers. failing to prevent bombings by the irish republican army failing to prevent the 1994 bombing of the israeli embassy in london. and the attempted assassination of then libyan leader, mar, fee, mash on and schaler went on to the media with proof of their allegations. and that's when their problems began. we want to introduce our guest. now any meshawn, welcome. any 1st i want to ask you about your decision to enter em. i 5 in the 1st

place, you strike me as someone who has a conscience, someone who would never have been comfortable working on the other side of the law . it's clear that illegalities allegedly committed by m, i 5, bothered you from the outset. i was exactly the same way at the cia. tell me about joining m i 5 and about your initial impressions when you started reading those secret files, files that were clearly inappropriate. so i was recruiting in 990 long time ago now and, and this was one year off to my funds have been put on an official footings. the 1st time in 80 years of its existence, with the security have attacked. and also when the new official secrets had came into play, which was there to stop with away, that was based in 1989. during my recruitment, i was told time and time again that they had changed that they no longer have to look at counter espionage because the soviet union was disintegrating. they no

longer had so correct under the bed. political actress, u. k. because the soviet union was disintegrating and they needed a new generation of intelligence officer to investigate terrorist. and that's what i thought i was signing up to do. the recruitment processes about 10 months, in my case, that can go between 6 to a year in terms of recruitment. and i was reassured, every time i got through, i didn't think i was the right person to this job. and every time i still kept getting through and i thought by the end of it, i was quite reassured, and that it would be a good job to do and make a difference and potentially have life actually. i mean, it sounds idealistic, but that's what i want to do. so that's why i joined in terms of the things i saw, an in fellers my 1st disillusionment was the fact that i was posted to the red under the bed section, which was known as at to where they were still looking at political from versus

political activists. that social and we saw huge number of us when i say we my and my former partner david shader became the primary, whistler in 1997 for a huge number of files. hell got just on a regular u. k. systems, but also people who are in politics, many of whom became part for the government in the 1997 general election. so you have a situation where the notional political masters of m. i 5 and i, 6, the foreign intelligence agency has filed, held him so you know, in terms of a democracy who's got the power. when you and david schaler resigned from my 5 year intention, was to blow the whistle on illegality. david took documents to prove your allegations to the mail on sunday, which published them in august of 1997. what was the immediate fall out from the government? what was the response from the public committee pull out from the government was

interesting because this was in union acted landslide victory of tony blair. and we thought, you know, labor government off to, well, how long of a conservative government in the u. k. would mean that they would take all allocations more seriously. what we want to do was created a bit of a scandal and ensure that there was going to be appropriate inquiry into how the spies were running a lot. and to make sure that they were reforms put in place to regulate what they were doing, then they needed to be tighter than even the reform. so put in place in the 980. so that was a me, it didn't quite work out that way because one we have to, the allegations came out and there was a huge press push for an inquiry one week after we made the allegations. princess diana died in paris. so everything else called blanked out with a huge media hysteria about the death of princess diana. so he can try and trim most things in life and try and plan for those things in life,

but something like that was on a different scale. and so we found the last in europe on their own and living in hiding and without much press support. off until that point though, the press whether can you get angry about the government response because the government tried to in junk them to try to get them tried to shut them up in terms of pressurising for a proper inquiry into what the spies were doing initially a judge blocked the mail on sunday from publishing the allegations you were making that concern the i r a specifically. but what about the other information? what about the attempt on kadakya? for example, what was the reaction from the fremont from the courts and from the public? this is a weird one because the good article, as it became known, which was an m, i 6 funded backing. and i'll kind of group in libya to try and assess nature for and head of state which went wrong. he killed innocent people. how much worse can it get? was the biggest case,

and this is why we actually question. this is why david wanted to get public, and this was the story that did not get published initially. and he had to fight it out that finally officer about a year when we're living and hiding. ddc decided to make a panorama special and the mel sunday and the sunday times decided to run with the story to finally. and it was at that point that david was arrested and put into prison and had to spend 4 months in the tourist hell hole waiting, and a failed extradition attempt back to the u. k. so in terms of how people reacted to that, the and how the government reaction, the press was incandescent they wanted on. so they want to know if this is true. and what happened was that the black government just came out and said this is pure fantasy. it has no basis in fact, and there's never been a proper police investigation into it. now when ah,

david returned to the u. k in 2000 and was put on trial in 2002 have to sentence by she taught from 3. and then he got his possible back and when we went to pick it up from scotland yard, the police officer said, we're really sorry. we were just following orders. we had to do this getting this process. but we knew you were saying was true. the cover up with astonishing and the fact that the cover up was so systematic at that point. and yet, you know, you fast food 2011 window is the nato bombing of libya. because say that humanitarian aid and get off, he was dragged out and tortured and murdered with that point. and that was seen as a door if occasion of the west power in 2011. so the moral slide between what happened in 996, what happened in 2011 in terms of perception in the west is terrifying the fact that we can order this sort of thing rather than keep it secret and condemn it

shortly after the mail on sunday, published your allegations, you and david schaler were forced to leave the country for france. you truly believed if you were to return to the u. k, you would be arrested. but you went back to london and much to your surprise, you were not arrested. so you returned again to france, but in 1998 after david began working with a british media on a documentary about the cadets the plot. he was charged under the official secrets act, and the french detained him at the request of the british for 4 months. what happened then? i knew i was getting back to be arrested and i was indeed arrested at the immigration gate and got together. and then i was taken off to a counter terrorist and suite in central london police station. and then in terms of the rest, the day with key point is i was never charged with anything, let alone convicted whatever because i hadn't done anything. right. you know, i did was, you know, support what david was trying to do. so yes, i was arrested,

i was kept on police spell, which means you didn't have money, but you have to keep answering bell and going back every month. and, and one of david brothers was, will say, treated this way and to his best friends as well. so it was very much a case of trying to intimidate david by threatening legal penalties against the people he loved the most. we're speaking with m, i 5, whistleblower and mash on on the odyssey that she and her partner david schaler experienced after going public with allegations of official wrong doing. we're going to take a short break and go deeper into this important story. stay tuned on. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah, with by the middle of the

19th century, practically the whole of india had been under the rule of the british empire. the colonial authorities had imposed that heavy death bringing the people into poverty and were exporting natural resources. and moreover, these authorities absolutely had no consideration for the traditions of the local population, treating them like 2nd class citizens. the british were showing signs of disrespect even to those who cooperated with them. the fact of ignoring the religious beliefs of the hindus led them. you'd never see boys mercenary soldiers serving under the british crown. 3000000000 began on the 10th of may 1857 in the garrison town of may river north of india, in the form of a mutiny. the rebels quickly took over daily. the heroic resistance of the indian people lasted for one and a half years. however, the forces were not equal. the colonial authorities dealt with the rebels cruelly, the slaves, the boys were tied to the mouth of the cannon and were shot right through their

bodies for the amusement of the public. this type of execution was called the devil's with the obliteration of the mutiny resulted in the death of 800000 inhabitants of india. however, the british empire never broke the free spirit of the indians and their will for resistance with the youngsters of today because there's a lot of censorship on many topics in schools that started just a migration topic. to my impression, it went on this atomic change tom back, it went on, those come down a how you see it. i mean, there was no real debate. it was i to or that never as and now it's about russia and it's about yes, we have to fight russia and russia to be taken off the map the

ah. 2 welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry alco were speaking with m. i 5, was the blower? any mesh on about her revelations of illegality and the difficult fall out for she and her partner any in august of 2000. you and david schaler did a very brave thing. you returned to the u. k. both of you knew what likely awaited you there, but you did it any way. tell us what went into your decision to return. i think there are a number of issues around why we decided to return at that point. we've been living in hiding and in excel for 3 years at that point in france. and from my perspective, i could still travel back and forth because i'd never been charged with anything. but for david once, he'd been released from the french prison because the brits, i'll text regarding 998. it meant that if he had left cross to go to any other

european country, he would have been arrested and probably extradited from any other country. france had a particular lore back in the 1990, which said that if you are a whistler, it was deemed to be a political offense and they did not extradite people for those political attention . so we taken advice before we went. we knew that was going to be legal protection and that's why you and so, yes, the, the courage that david showed when he went back to face the music that they say and to stand trial with quite exceptional. i mean, i had to do it myself without having to stand trial, but he knew he would have to. he knew he'd probably be convicted and he would probably go back to prison. and after 4 months in paris, that was pretty bad. but he did it because he wanted to have his evidence regine to the public records in a public court of law. what happened was that he returned in 2000 didn't go on trial until the end of 2002, during which there are

a number of legal hearings which actually shut down every line of defense he could have used. so by the time he got in front of his jury of his peers, he was not allowed to say why had done what he done in any way. so cautious convictions. and he went back to prison. it was disgusting. this is the way the all whistleblowers are treated. and i think can, i'm talking from british perspective web. back in the day we face 2 years per charge in prison. they're trying to increase that 14 years per charge in prison. now, not just for the whistleblower, but also the journalist, but of course what we're looking at in the usa and you will know because you've been to prison, is if you blow the whistle, you can face up to 35 years from prison. a per charge. as chelsea manny did, and it was snowden, he will probably face life. and jimmy and songs. note that he's a whistleblower, he's a publisher, but even the penalties were pulling everything over in the usa. so anyone who blew

the whistle and anyone who then is told to go and faced the music and wants to put it on the public record, what they've playing the whistle on faces. huge penalty in the west. and people who score 8 countries like russia or china or wrong, or whatever for stigmatizing and penalizing dissidence. that's precisely what the west of doing when they treat whistleblowers in this way to the british government tried hard to convict and to imprison david, even if they decided not to charge you with a crime, you were by his side through the entire time in the end david was given 6 months in jail for violating the official secrets act. we all know this incredibly short sentence was meant as a fee saving measure for the government. when governments go after former employees for violating the official secrets act or in the united states, the espionage act, they usually seek decades in prison. they didn't get it in this case. what happened?

how did this play out? partly, and he was facing him much from 6 years in prison. so that was 3 charges, a t as each under the 1989 official secrets act after he was convicted that before he was sentenced, i was allowed to give a mitigation fee to the judge. this is the only time either of us had ever been able to anything in public, in court about why we've done what we've done. so i explained that as explained our motivation explained what had happened, explain everything. and the judge actually said that he had been minded to give david 13, those from prison. he was going to give him 6 home. so that sounds really light compared to what goes on in the u. s. and it sounds really like what might come into play in the u. k. when they bring in what they are going to call, the new espionage act, which is an amalgamation of the old official secret fax which is going to indeed increase the terrorist who with los angeles to 14 years volunteer. so this is all

to discourage others. of course it's a power play and i think it's so important to remember that people do not blow the whistle just because they want to, you know, get a certain bit, gloria, whatever they ruin allies by doing it, they turn their lives inside out and upside down and they can never again, a professional stage her as you know, as i know, and for people to be penalized and even worse even more badly with the senses. you know, 14 years in prison because you're a treasure or something like that. you're not sure i should trying to protect the rights for your country and your fellow assistance. you're trying to protect the very nature of democracy rather than trying to allow the government to encroach on all civil liberties. i cannot say this strongly enough at this point as well because one of the things i learned through always yesterday, which was like and also having the privilege to it with other with letters

including a cell. and also what would hack to this is that the more we will move and see online world, and the more that we live our lives online, the easier it is for the spies to look at us to follow is to watch it. and if we don't have people, most recent, of course, i was snowden, which is almost 10 years ago, coming out and saying, this is what is happening. you know, between nation states and corporations and the hackers and criminal hackers and all that sort of thing. we are so vulnerable, we are sitting dogs with our lives on line. so we need to be aware of it. we need to spread the word about it, and we need to protect people who come out and reveal research with nation robin. prosecute them and prosecute them, put them in prison after discussing one of the things that is consistent for all whistleblowers is after the actual act of revealing evidence of waste, fraud, abuse, and illegality. life is just never the same. how have things changed for you?

and for david over the past 20 years. oh, as a big question. and no, i totally agree. and i would say this is true or whistleblower if across all sectors, not just intelligence government military. although we tend to be the ones who pay the biggest penalty. so most people will lose their professional reputation. they might lose their with all to earn a living that might lose, you know, to homes or their families, whatever it is, which is bad enough. and it should not happen if people want to expose wrong doing and improve the work organization. but we are the ones who, if you know, face person goes prison as well. so i think the win win situation would be a such a strategy where people can be encouraged to expose wrongdoing and not certainly public key ordered for it, but just be recognized and not just treated as troublemakers. so that would be the

1st step. but yes, in terms of how you rebuild a life of doing that, it's an incredibly hard, i suppose, for me. i mean, it cost me my relationship with david schaler that disintegrated in 2007 but also is trying to rebuild. what i found useful was trying to learn lessons from what i've gone through, particularly when it came to medium in depletion. and because i watched how the major been manipulated during david's case, i mean, i remember sitting in the courtroom when his judgment, final judgment. read out and it said david cello hadn't been withdrawn from money, no lives and put a risk, blah blah blah. and the next day or the headline says exactly the offices. so hang on, how did that happen? so the media manipulation and moving forward to what's going on online and deep fakes. and the rankings and the disappearances of articles online is frightening.

but i think the key issues that i've really brought forward in my work now is about privacy. because during those 7 years of the whistling story, you know, going on the run living in hiding the next, i'm going to court cases double blow. i never felt that i had previously lay at home to this day. i didn't feel a has privacy talking on the phone with my emails in my own home either. i'm not saying that that's happening. i just aware of that potential potential threat. so this is why i'm, i've dive deep into a lot of these, those technical issues, trying to check out how we can protect ourselves, both individually and societally and democratic a as well. so i'm going to do a shameless plug. i have a new book out. it's called a proxy mission. i'm sorry about that, but and also i also, i work with an organization called the world ethical data for him and the world ethical tast plantation to try and look at the sort of issues and take deep dive

into them and to mitigate some of these issues as well, particularly the intersection corporations, government and the state and government and things like that. because if people are not aware, one of the potential threats and 2 of the potential tarnishes which might be much more utopian, robin distributed than we have no hope. so it's all that education, it's all about trying to make people aware. and i think that's what with a blow to that just the, the think this is the key motivation for all of us. i think if we put it in to try make people aware. so even though my were supplying was 25 years ago, i still try and make people aware now of, of the things that i find fascinating and interesting. and i can see my potential credit. but there might be potential bonuses and benefits from the technology that we're now working with, particularly as we now will have to live life on line any. you have been one of

julianna's sanchez, most outspoken supporters in the u. k. tell us what's new in julian's case. we know what is probably his final appeal of his extradition to the united states is being heard right now. we've come to understand those of us whose support julian should expect nothing from the u. k. government. what are julian's chances in the british court system at this point? is there any hope for him in the european court of human rights? and is there any reason to believe that the new prime minister re she soon act will be any different toward julian than boys johnson and list trust were. i think my face probably said it all, and i would doubted the british system is raked and offer they were a bit of a vessel stay towards us. anyway, we know that, you know, there are to be you, they need the us bus. the whole point about the, the song case is that he is no stray in publisher and journalist award winning is

one global award over the years. and he is imprisoned in the u. k. unwanted by the u. s. espionage child to which is a permanent okay? so the, the key point is one, it should not be happening to someone who is notion american, who hasn't been a spy, is not involved in espionage. she is a publisher, pure and simple. he is the case around him as well, means that all journalists around the world are equally vulnerable to predictions by the us legal system. anyone who writes anything that might challenge us again. many it, you know, some sort of war somewhere in some country, most people don't even have an interest. and of course the people in the country are going to be totally interested in totally horrify by it. but it just means that reporting proper journalism is going to be stifled. because if that can happen to

julian as an award winning global journalist, it can happen to anyone else. i remember a quote i, i think it was in new york times. i just her way back in the day with geico, bill keller, and he was one of the very 1st journalist partners that julie worked with along with the guardian in the u. k. and the new times editor said, we don't consider him. a publisher said him just the source and i found this absolutely astonishing. because either he's a publisher, which means that okay, he's published that the new york times books that i mean to equally vulnerable, or she is a source, but the source protection of the 4th is, is the prime direct to any good journalist. so how can you say he's just before not protect him? so in a sense that shows the whole concept of proper investigative journalism in both feet with both barrels. i can't believe that the address of the new york times at that point set up. so, julian's case is so important, it's such

a case of principle as well as the case of a poor man being tortured psychologically for years now. and robin wrongfully tact . but it's such a principle for janice around the world. and i can't believe that more journalists and shame on them for not doing it across the west and not standing up for him. thank you so much to our guest, any mash on and thank you for joining us. i'm john kerry aku to next time for another episode of the whistleblowers the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 i at this hour, american and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to

disarm iraq, to free its people, and to defend the world from gray pain. we will bring to the iraqi people, food, and medicine, and supplies, and sleep with awe.

ah, there is no trust in you. you are incompetent in stage us. you created nazi's narrow borders, then stood up the situation. russia un envoy takes aim of western leaders and undermining the 2015 minutes of peace agreement, saying that is for god of the records have directly led to the conflict. the new cray russian troops advanced towards the ukrainian health city over out of trouble . in the gwinnett republic, ultimately taking a key village and cutting off, he have supply line. nigerian authorities call upon finland to stop an antique government activated accuses of inciting unrest and the african countries.