ah hello, welcome to wells apart. teaching russia lesson has never been an easy undertaking for the europeans to centuries ago. napoleon, despite considering russia and natural allies, decided to punish him for rebuking your french embargo and lost much of his army. in that effort. in the 20th century, the germans made their move and meant the same fate. can europe close this historical gestalt, this time around, by joining forces against russia in ukraine? to discuss it now joined by austria's former minister of foreign affairs,

karen nestle. madame is great to see you and welcome to russia. thank you very much for the kind of invitation, and it's always a pleasure to be in your country. now, before we delve into history and your politics, i want to ask you about your own post ministerial transition, because i know that you had to leave your native country due to personal and financial pressures. you 1st went to france, and then you eventually sat told in lebanon, which is such a reversal of the traditional immigrant wood. because we usually think of people moving from the middle is to europe. you made it the other way around. how has been this adventure been for you so far? what i, it's now nearly a year that are after lebanon. it was in spring last year with old events. and when i went made my 1st administrative steps in may in lebanon, and i said, i need to text number, i need the residency paper, et cetera. the not to re, i went to the lawyers, i went to c. d asked me like, are you crazy? you to come to left alone, you're settling, elizabeth, long,

15000 lebanese are leaving for a month lebanon. alice said, yes, it's a y, as it will last problems in europe, and us much more freedom in lebanon than in europe. that's why i'm here. it's interesting you say that because i also love lebanon. i used to go there when i was reporting on the war in syria, it was such her respite. and one thing that the suck with me is you describing lebanon a as a place where you found a freedom of mind. and this is a very interesting type of freed them. what do you mean by that? well, it's not the freedom that is stipulated in a constitution and a paper. it's not the oldest freedom commitments that to hear all the time. i answer to european union. no, it's a freedom that is lived in the sense of live and let live, you know, people live next to each other. they don't live with each other. this is also affect lebanon was, is 18 different ethnic groups. every traveler station that we have seen throughout the many chapters of protracted war. ah, but there's consensus,

does the minus consanzo isn't as what europe is missing, where we only see black and white now in lebanon. you have grey. this isn't a very interesting question because i think lebanon has a very diverse society. if it's the gay capital of the middle east, they're very vibrant, ny 5. but during the day, you, you would know that because it looks like a traditional muslim society. and i think it's a, a different, a more discrete, perhaps way of dealing with diversity where various groups have their spaces. and they also have some sort of a shared a ticket when they can be themselves without being in the other's faces. so it's done more tolerant, thinking and more discreet, the how does it feel to you after a living for so many years in europe, which i think has a much more sort of in the face more demonstrative way all for showing your identity, whatever it is, or you know, i, europe,

that i always was grateful for has ceased to exist. and what, when i mean this, europe, it's a europe where you could do it is let of and let live where you could have different opinions. 1520 years ago, it was completely normal that i like hosting people for lunch and dinner. and i always had a wide spectrum of acquaintances. there were communists or a list aware of all kind of ethnic religious backgrounds. and you could sit down, share food, be of very divergent opinions. ah, this agree, but meet again. this is not any more possible today. ah, you're cancelled. and whether you have, whether you're not going along with the majority opinion on a migration policy, like in 2015 when i started to have my skeptical positions on that. and i'm definitely not so far begun. definitely not the fascist. i enter summit or whatever . but i was labeled all that because i said back in 2015, it won't work about how people saw it enough. and so whether it's now on russia,

whether it's on climate change, whether it's on your name. if you have to topic there's only black and white, one thing that i cannot understand is that many europeans pride themselves on being true democrats and they see russia, for example, as an authoritarian country. but the approach you are describing when everything is very manichean, black or white, either your with the forces of good or with the forces of evil. it's very totalitarian in nature f. do you think people understand that? and is it a deliberate policy or a handful understand like 2 days ago, there was a headline in austin, online media count the format of foreign minister, crisis back to the empire of eva. and the interesting thing was that in the chat rooms, a lot of people had some sort of supportive position and saying why we understand why you left europe. and the way you were chased out of country is,

is for manners centrally regretted. saw that support from from, so readers if you want us or a lot of hatred from others coming out. but many people have realised that why are the pandemic wire this one year of war? and anybody who is, are asking for peace negotiations is considered a traitor. is considered a negative bedside of the history. it's all about arms shipping. so where has this europe disappeared where you had a rational discourse where you had skepticism? i, i said already when i served as a minister that when i want to see a diets i travel to moscow to new dalio pitching white. when i went west, the vienna i was often confronted with elderly teenagers, are emotional not any more rational. now or this is not just some moral pressure as far as i understand you faced real are obstacles to continue living your life with dignity and austria. can you talk more about that?

yeah, well, i'm in the, in 2022 and a panoramic started. maybe people had not the topic of myself, but i, i, i faced a media campaign against me that was weird. that was completely irrational. i was into a it was just to give you one example accused of having the navi shock formula on my desk when i was minister and which i had been experimenting according to the like a with the sorcerer, which i had a photo that has kept, kept up coming again and again was the photo of a dance was so the president of the russian federation. so she had danced with the devil she is cooking poisoned, to kill animals and her. and i had also, that was all of them brought up by the media last year, only that i am taking out jewelry. it was and it is a witch hunt and it was suppressed. taking that uncertainties. i couldn't press any more because i said to myself, this is, this is impossible. what is going on there?

and d, i and i, a in 2020 us to lift in austria. the tick ticked out a dock that i had taken from there, from dock shelter, which had been put to sleep, but a veterinarian accusing me of having killed the dog. and in the middle of 2 and a meal for the 1st time, a little history of austria, a dog was exhumed, you say in english. and there was an autopsy to prove that you didn't the curate or that. yeah, no, they wanted to prove that i called magic seriously, but you come from a country that gave the world many or world renown psychologist sigmund phrases yes or one of them, but there are many others. how do you explain this sudden reversal of fortune? because, you know, maybe it's just asked the russians, but we associate europe with enlightenment values with critical thinking with our to appreciation of for are all forms of diversity, not only political,

but there any other. how do you explain it to yourself? yeah, well this is what i am and i started to write that stopped now because out of things to do a book, which i call a rec room for europe because the york you just described, it's the one i was always grateful for. not only proud of but grateful for that. i could grow up in that groups for announcement opinion without risking a lot and not even being mistaken. i'm in there and we only learned by mistakes. but i pity the youngsters of today because there's a lot of self censorship on many topics in schools that started with the migration topic. to my impression, it went on with the climate change tom back. it went on his panoramic how you see it. i mean, there was no, there was a real debate, it was either or, but never s. and, and now it's about russia and it's about, yes, we have to fight russia and russia has to be taken off the map. and at that,

how did this, it rush is thinking of them up. i wonder, what do you want to do with that huge hold of them in there, but, but they're continent is all the what i realized was this irrational anti russian sentiment, especially in australia, germany, which i had under estimated when i lived in france for years, sensing it was before the war, but i, when i said, i'm traveling to moscow next week to teach my landlord neighbors would say, oh hi, interesting are for a toy story and there's lots of cultural perception of russia. so the french are much more relaxed when you speak about russia, not the case for drama and austria. now what are you doing russia, you're there with the mafia. you are, i mean, russia, this, a rash of phobia is this russia and to russian sentiment has come up again in austria and germany over the last few years. and i was like a collateral damage, you know, many people, especially as to want to take to russia. everybody was happy about the rich russian tourist lions and people who made large positive economic economy flow because stay

that created the company's there. but it was also the case that indiana medical doctors would say, we don't treat russians anymore. now are we talked about this use a family of it. let me ask about what the many people here in russia describe as russian are. you are centrism and i've heard many political scientists suggest that over the last couple of centuries, russia has developed not only technological, but a psychological and almost a spiritual dependence on i, europe. we see europe as a, as an epitome of everything. positive progress. if as this sort of and reachable even where we won a gold, but just like in the bible, there's always this is angel with a fiery sore that the gate and we are always being pushed her away from there. do you think or ra europe has ever been, what russia projected it to be? and when we look at the very rough figures of war us,

i would say the wars that we have seen in central and western europe when his, when we think of the wharf sir, 2 years when we think of other religious was protestant catholics, which was not only about religion, it was a power warf course. the figures are much higher than any kind of civil strife. you either had on russian territory or in the middle east. and, and the did many, many wars that we have seen in on the european continent. it was always about either or it was always very black and white, and there did all day and accomplishments that you have was rift that you're referring to to europe. i know it from the middle east. i know it from us, from a generation that unfortunate has already disappeared. but when i was in my twenties, these people ran to seventy's and they had gone to cambridge to hide it back to paris. they were half french, half german in the hard. and they, they were in love with syrup and they taught me a lot about european culture with stare passion for classical music of philosophy.

which sometimes we, the europeans, i would say, under estimated as our cultural legacy we needed maybe that's a, a russian m, a grant or a lebanese a student would troy attention to and learn that the europe that you're referring to existed in between. it was maybe at the court of y. marvin sheila and good sir were discussing and have other was there. i mean that there was this strong competition between so many small courts, maybe the big difference from between a russian history and, and the many european histories you have. because there's not one is that um, especially in the, on the territory of what is to the germany, austria and other central european countries. it was quote, a holy roman and pile of germination, which they factor when hundreds of small quarts of very small quartz, bowden,

bowden by mar, tooling an hour. but that also led to competition, and you had to miss and you had count thought, dukes, who tried to attract the most the brightest minds of those times. some of them went bankrupt while investing in art or a new castles. but that's also brought competition on the arts level on the university level to give you an example that had always met him fair. so you can give me that example after short break, but we have to take it right now. we will be back in just a moment. ah ah, a russian station oh,

never does on the nose landscape with speedy. when else about with we will van in the european union the kremlin. yup. machines. the state aunt rush up to date, and ortiz food next. even our video agency, roughly all band on youtube said with ah

ah, well come back to will deport with austria's former minister of foreign affairs. karen, can i so i'm can i so before i so rudely interrupted you, you were talking about how this positive impression, all 5 germany and the broader europe was actually rooted in reality in the previous centuries. but i think it was also the russian perception of the 20th century, especially associated with the rule of law because i, i was born in the waning years of the soviet union. and i remember, you know, london and put in being very young, even when he was vice mayor of fi st. petersburg. my hometown, there was a lot of talk about german law or austrian discipline and the treatment of everybody as equal before. the lord, the presumption that a person is innocent until proven guilty when you look at how you were treated or

how some of the russian nationals are now being treated. what do you think happened to that concept? the rental, except as somebody who's studied law, i'm simply struck i'm, i'm shocked by what's going on. the way law has been twisted confiscation, cutting of bank accounts, lists have replaced loss. this is to put it in a nutshell to come back to which one to which we discussed before. and ah, let me put it in a little bit of irony. but when you were accused of witchcraft and 17th century, you can walk to the court. you were tortured, but at least you were told your crime. you had danced with the devil you had placed some children. ah, in my case, i only learned by sheer coincidence that i am blacklisted and i don't even know my crimes. but the effect of that is, i'm not allowed to open a bank account. i'm not allowed to work. it's a defacto prohibition to work, which i had actually the fact of prohibition to leave because it will have sources

of income. how can you, or you cannot open your bank account, this makes your life impossible. so, so when i compare it to the witch trials, the 17th century, which by the way also happened only in germany, english. there were some in that in the united states as i and the united states. but to my knowledge, not in russia, you have by jago, who is a kind of more of those units, or she is more the kind which and she is a, she's both black and white. and i think that's actually a distinct feature of the russian culture. and the russian collective psychology is that we have seen our shadow. we have incorporated it and we know our own the evil . unlike the europeans who only see their, their shiny side. but seeing the world in that time frame, i had the many destructive consequences as you know, in the 20th century. how is this treatment of your or of russians as bad russians and russians are treated collectively as the, as a bad nation?

how is it different from my dividing people into uber and intervention? yeah, there are no, this is, this is an old story that unfortunately we have seen pushed to the extreme on the aust fontes on front by the german army and also by the austrians or just when it came to russians. the way women were treated. will it as well? why destroy it? ah, and, and which was left in the collective consciousness older than of the soldiers who came as occupiers liberation, whatever you call them depends on the, on the vantage point. when they arrived in berlin in vienna, in the case of, of, of russia, i would say it's also this old east west that got to me. and that we can also go back to the ottoman war times. we can go back to the wars between persia and the creek. city states, you know, there's the big, far east, the wide to the dark, the also terry and east. it all comes back now. and they stated that the lights are

wide. so shiny place of, of the west, i, since i work a lot in indiana to our markets, i know the stereotypes when it comes to g. air up muslim shanks, black mailing to poor western oil conceal man all with 1972 oil crisis. it's still serial class or evil russians who are allowing day as a weapon. now, even russia just wanted to, you know, since you mentioned your expertise in the energy field, i'm sure you've heard this recent revelations by seymour hersh, pulitzer prize winner about reportedly the american special services being behind on the explosions on the north stream pipelines. putting aside the morality of this issue, if we believe this a respectable journalist, why do you think the americans even needed to order something like that, or to execute something like that? because the europeans were already pretty disciplined in towing their line. why would they resort to set up matters because it's essentially an industrial

terrorism and it's also the shifting of the norms in, in a way. definitely i, i was sure that they would make the utmost that not string to which is only the expansion of an existing pipeline would never go online. that, that, that was my conviction, but i never expected them to blow it up on this, of course is, as you say, the act of terrorism is the preach of intimate relations. so, but they were obsessed with this topic, the really well in my account us and it was old time not to not stream ah, and a pure obsession. how to put it. i gave a lot of thoughts to it, but i, we saw it already in 2014 coming, not stream to was not yet on paper, but we had then south stream. and also the project to connect to the russian. a terminal nova sylis twisted by gary and port, i think of both up and there was

a lot of pressure by the us under pin commission. they dam sabotaged to project and of the russians. i waited for a few months and what will happen and saw stream never materialized. so it was turned into 2 extreme and that was the time when the turco russia and a 2 corporation also started very, very solidly and played out and see it. since you mentioned turkey, because turkey has a similar experience of sort of wanting be to be part of for big europe being pushed the way interfering in the european politics in, in many different ways over centuries. and now also preceding its own the very interesting game. how do you see these 2 countries play out both among themselves and though with europe given that the europe are so positional toward sir russia right now? do you think are the same treatment will be given to turkey one sooner or later? well, i think for turkey to kia tail, fisher call themselves now

r. s o has done its utmost to be taken serious on an equal lover. and they were you related at various instances and learn who they are. now of course i was wondering if, if your credit is admitted into your opinion, in some claim my to take 5 years that stick or anything girl or shorter i did. it raises a lot of questions, not only in alcohol, also in other cities where where people have been chewing up and fulfilling requirements. i did the turkish side as think, looks at europe. no, not on the as an economic partner. there's also historic ties. as above all, southeast europe, the balkans, where the auto months were present at the near altamont policy that has been practiced by the a could be, is very much into that and their, their,

their present ethical ties. but also let us not forget that as a jester. of millions of turks living in such europe in the netherlands in germany, berlin is to force city of turks. after istanbul is macca, its berlin with several 1000000 of turks, the road it took years to day when in, in the current climate of conflict is the are the only ones who still practice diplomacy in the general sense of diplomacy. and he wrote about it and your other book about the not the ard, but the craft of diplomacy. i like to look because it pays homage to the very complex and painstaking nature of this profession and takes a lot of knowledge, lot of grip. a lot of perseverance, a lot of far hard work and a bid ofa. good luck. do you think me would ever come back to the, to the craft of diplomacy, respecting, diplomacy as a profession? yeah. for that it's a foot meet,

also new recruitment policy. people who have, who are talented to we have a lot of until the 10th people, unfortunately in, in, in and diplomatic stuff all across the cloak. but we have to more talented one. when it, when you go east, we have to more professional wants. when you go east of that is the core is plea a is a turkish minister of foreign affairs, is that the russian minister of foreign affairs where there's also this adult mindset that i'm missing and willingness to study your neighbor. and then that group perceiving yourself or had a shy and so we have seen it's, it's stamped from the united states. it's prop, very much practiced by ear countries. this attitude of transforming the audio, transformative diplomacy. it's a technical term and u. s. foreign policy. look at what's going online. budapest, you have high ranking u. s. officials arriving in budapest and telling them off, you know, what has to happen in terms of media will test to happen in terms of today. i mean, that's not the way to happen. we're talking on the background though,

for very tragic war that's happening in the neighboring country. and you have some understanding of both the russian mentality, you know, the russian liter personally. and i think you would agree with him with me rather than him or whatever. it wasn't, that was on his mind when he authorized this military operations wasn't an easy decision for him knowing what he knows what he talks about, the ukraine. what do you see me ah, persuade him to. busy call it quits. what do you think would her persuade russia to put an end to this fighting? oh, well, it was from the very early days. a proxy void was from the very early day, an awe and antagonism. not only about territory, i'm in territories, ones sing, never was a few the territory dispute. it was one about the bigger topic of security security

guarantees. and oh, since we have to either ladon psychology, collective consciousness, geography that you have in that area. i day, sir, there's an experience in russia. mine said that her there were this invasions, there was this fragmentation and also to roll off. let's go back to vienna. diplomacy of early 20th century. i always thought that the transport of linen from switzerland tor st. petersburg in 1917 was the last minute decision thought to get rid of the eastern front. no, sir, a book by an austrian historian like elizabeth harish. i learned that actually to have been a long, a long reach of far back, reaching into lay 18 ninety's. a development in how to freak mans, russia and as for port of debauchery movement, which was not em muscle, it was not

a majority of representative movement of the russian stan, demand from the anna, the money from mister haled pant, pavel saw organize all that. i was moving into it, it was all about trick mounting. russia and the dan minister of foreign affairs of austria, said before, 1914 i or russia is too big that we can attack it. we will have to make sure they somehow implodes from inside. so do you think that this will be my inside of the current decision makers because they do not make an impression of people who actually study he know books. there's no history ah, does come get a historical approach. but when you hear from think tanks, universities, people, and even there's now a sort of development of, of, of making you plus the waiting rooms in all to european communities. somehow recreated plus in whiting may be russian regions or russia position as to say,

it goes back to it affirms it goes back to frick mounting. while matter with this has been a fascinating conversation. thank you very much for that. i can thank you for watching hope to see her again on worlds apart. ah with mm hm. with

a ah, syria. i say it's 5 people will kill the other one is ready, may pass by that apartment building and center them off. right? and this is a trip to leap. they're getting you weapons, now you can be 100 percent. sure. we will destroy these lambert said of the russian private mentoring company involvement. who has an insight on a new pain conflict with the health bike who's in the bathroom making.