digital russia lesson has never been an easy undertaking for the europeans to centuries ago. napoleon, despite considering russia and natural allies, decided to punish him for rebuking your french embargo and lost much of his army. in that effort. in the 20th century, the germans made their move and meant the same fate. can europe close this historical gestalt, this time around, by joining forces against russia in ukraine? to discuss it, i'm now joined by austria's former minister of foreign affairs. karen nestle. madame is great to see you and welcome to russia. thank you very much for the kind of invitation, and it's always a pleasure to be in your country. now, before we delve into history and your politics, i want to ask you about your own post minutes serial transition, because i know that you had to leave your native country due to personal and financial pressures. you 1st went to france and then you eventually settled in lebanon, which is such a reversal of the traditional immigrant. good because we usually think of people

moving from the middle is to europe. you made it the other way around. how has been this adventure been for you so far? what i, it's now nearly a year that i arrived to lebanon. it was in spring last year with old events. and when i went made my 1st administrative steps in may in lebanon, and i said, i need to text number, i need to residency, paper, et cetera. the notary, i went to the lawyers, i went to see the asked me like, are you crazy? you want to come to left alone, you're settling and non $15000.00 lebanese are leaving for a months lebanon. and i said, yes, it's a why, as it will, i have problems in europe and does much more freedom in lebanon than in europe. that's why i'm here. it's interesting you say that because i also love lebanon. i used to go there when i was reporting on the war in syria, and it was such a respite. and one thing that stuck with me is you describing lebanon as a place where you found a freedom of mind that this is

a very interesting type of freedom. what do you mean by that? well, it's not the freedom that is stipulated in a constitutional paper. it's not all this freedom commitments that are here all the time. i insert to european union. no, it's a freedom that is lived in the sense of live and let live you know, people live next to each other. they don't live with each other. this is also affect lebanon, was his 8 in different ethnic groups. every traveler station that we have seen throughout the many chapters of protected war. ah, but there's consensus, does the minus consanzo isn't as what europe is missing, where we only see black and white now in lebanon? you have grey. this isn't a very interesting question, because i think lebanon has a very diverse society. if it's the gay capital of the middle east, they're very vibrant ny 5. but during the day you, you would know that because it looks like a traditional muslim society. and i think it's a, a different, more discrete, perhaps way of dealing with diversity where various groups have their spaces. and

they also have some sort of shared a ticket when they can be themselves without being in each other's faces. so it's done more tolerant their thing and more discreetly. how does it feel to you after living for so many years in europe, which i think has a much more sort of in the face more demonstrative way all for showing your identity or whatever it is? well, you know, i, the europe that i always was grateful for has ceased to exist. and what, when i mean, does europe, it's a europe where you could do it is live and let live where you could have different opinions. 1520 years ago, it was completely normal that i like hosting people for lunch and dinner. and i always had a wide spectrum of acquaintances. there were communists or a list aware of all kind of ethnic religious backgrounds. and you could sit down, share food, be a very diverse opinions. ah, this agree,

but meet again. this is not any more possible to day. and you're cancelled. and whether you have that, whether you're not going along with the majority opinion on a migration policy, like in 2015 when i started to have my skeptical positions on that. and i'm definitely not clarify, begun definitely not to fetches the anti semite or whatever. but i was labeled all that because i said back in 2015, it won't work about how people saw it enough and a whether it's now on russia, whether it's on climate change, whether it's on your name, it you have to topic there's only black and white one thing that i cannot understand is that many europeans pride themselves on being true democrats and they see russia, for example, as an authoritarian country. but the approach you are describing when everything is very manichean, black or white, either you are with the forces of good or with the forces of evil. it's very totalitarian in nature. do you think people understand that?

and is it a deliberate policy or a handful understand like 2 days ago, there was a headline in austin, online media count, the former foreign minister, can isis back to the empire of eva? and the interesting thing was that in the chat rooms, a lot of people had some sort of supportive position and saying why we understand why you left europe. and the way you were chased out of our country is, is, is tremendous. and we regretted saw that support from, from so readers if you want us or a lot of hatred from others coming out. but many people have realised that why are the pandemic wire this one year of war? and anybody who is, are asking for peace negotiations is considered a traitor, is considered a negative bedside of the history. it's all about arms shipping. so where has this europe disappeared, or you had to raise? well discourse, say you had skepticism?

i, i, i said already when i served as a minister that when i want to see a diets i travel to moscow to new dileo pitching white. when i went west of vienna, i was often confronted with elderly teenagers are emotional, not anymore racial. now this is not just some moral pressure as far as i understand . you faced real our own obstacles to continue living your life with dignity and austria. can you talk more about that? yeah, well i in the in 2022 and a panoramic started. maybe people had not the topic of myself, but i, i, i faced a media campaign against me that was weird. that was completely irrational. i was into a it was just to give your 11 example accused of having the navi shock formula on my desk when i was minister. and which i had been experimenting according to the like a with the sorcerer,

which i look forward to death has kept kept up coming again and again was to full to off a dance was so the president of the russian federation. so she had danced with the devil she is cooking poisoned, to kill animals. and i, and i had also, that was all of them brought up by the media last year. only that i am taking out jewelry. it was and it is a witch hunt. and it was suppressed, taking that uncertain this. i couldn't press any more because i said to myself, but this is, this is impossible. what is going on there? and d, r and i in 2020, i still lived in austria. the tick dicked out a dock that i had taken from there, from doc shelter, which had been put to sleep by the veterinarian accusing me of having killed the dock and in the middle of them. and they, me, for the 1st time and legal history of austria, a dork was exhumed to say in english. and there was an autopsy to prove that you didn't the heroes them. yeah, no,

they wanted to prove that i closed magic seriously. but if you come from a country that gave the world many world renowned psychologist sigma phrases, yes or one of them, but there are many others. how do you explain this sudden reversal of fortune? because, you know, maybe it's just asked the russians, but we associate europe with enlightenment values with critical thinking with to appreciation our for our all forms of diversity, not only political, but there any other. how do you explain it to yourself? yeah, well this is what i am and i started to ride. i stopped now because i do things to do a book, which i call a rec room for europe because the europe you're just described, it's the one i was always grateful for. not only proud of but grateful for that. i could grow up in that, that, that quotes for, now's my opinion without risking a lot and not even being mistaken. i'm in there and we all learned by mistakes. but

i pity the youngsters of today because there's a lot of self censorship on many topics in schools that started with the migration topic. to my impression, it went on with the climate change tom back. it went on with the panoramic, how you see it's, i mean there was no, there was a real debate. it was either. busy or, but never s and, and now it's about russia and it's about, yes, we have to fight russia and russia has to be taken off the map. and at that, how did this, it rushes thinking of the map. i wonder, what do you wanna do with that huge hold of them in there, but, but there's the continent. is that all the, what i realized was this a racial anti russian sentiment, especially in austria and germany, which i had under estimated when i lived in france. for years, sensing it was before the war, but i, when i said, i'm traveling to moscow next week to teach my landlord neighbors would say, oh hi, interesting are fred. so story. and there's lots of cultural perception of russia.

so the french are much more relaxed when you speak about russia, not the case for drama and austria. now what are you doing russia, you're there with the mafia. you are. oh, i mean, russia, this, a rush of phobia is this russia an enter russian sentiment has come up again in austria and germany over the last few years. and i was like a collateral damage, you know, many people's personal still want to take to russia. everybody was happy about the rich, russia tourist lions and people who made large parts of the economy. economy flow because state created the company's there. but it was also the case that indiana medical doctors would say, we don't treat russians anymore. now are we talked about this use a family of it. let me ask about what many people here in russian describers russian are. you are centrism and i've heard many political scientists suggest that over the last couple of centuries, russia has developed not only technological, but a psychological and almost a spiritual dependence on i,

europe. we see europe as a, as an epitome of everything. positive progress. if as the sort of and reachable eden where we won the gold, but just like in the bible, there's always this angel with a fiery sore that the gate and we are always being pushed her away from there. do you think or ra europe has ever been? what russia projected it to be here? when we look at the very rough figures of war, us, i would say the wars that we have seen in central and western europe when his, when we think of the wharf. so 2 years when you think of other religious was protestant catholics, which was not only about religion, it was a power warf course. the figures are much higher than any kind of civil strife. you either had on russian territory or in the middle east and, and the, the many, many wars that we have seen in, on the european continent. it was always about either or it was always very black

and white. and there did order accomplishments that you have best rift that you're referring to, to europe. i know it from the middle east. i know it from us, from a generation that unfortunate has already disappeared. but when i was in my twenties, these people ran to seventy's and they had gone to cambridge to hide it back to paris. they were half french, half german in the hard. and they, they were in love with syrup and they taught me a lot about european culture with stare passion for classical music of philosophy. which sometimes we the europeans, i would say, under estimated as our cultural legacy we needed. maybe that's a russian emmy grant, or a lebanese, or student would troy attention to and learn that the europe that you're referring to existence in between. it was maybe at the court of why marvin schiller and good sir were discussing. and heather was

there. i mean that there was this strong competition between so many small courts, maybe the big difference from between the russian history and, and the many european histories you have because there's not one is that, um, especially in the, on the territory of what is to the germany austria and other central european countess. it was called a holy roman empire germination, which they factor were hundreds of small quarts of very small quartz, bowden, bowden by mar, tooling an hour. but that also led to competition, and you had to miss and you had count, saw dukes who tried to attract the most the brightest minds of those time. some of them went bankrupt while investing in art or a new castles. but that's also brought competition on the arts level on the university level to give you an example that was met him vessel. you can give me that example after a short break,

but we have to take it right now. we will be back in just a moment. ah so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have crazy foundation. let it be an arms race is often very dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very difficult time to sit down and talk with a with the blue.

what boom. boom. boom. because many some i'd love with a with why did i put up with this car? because with when read that up way, anything that i beat that was a lot to shift from up in things you get suitable with a lot that you like to speak with a

lawyer. welcome back to world to part with austria's former minister of foreign affairs. karen, can i so let him can i so before i so rudely interrupted you, you were talking about how this positive impression, all 5 germany and the broader europe was actually wooded in reality, in the previous centuries. but i think it was also the russian perception of the 20th century, especially associated with the rule of law because, ah, i was born in the waning years of the soviet union. and i remember, you know, vladimir putin being very young, even when he was a vice mayor of fi st. petersburg. my hometown, there was a lot of talk about, you know, german law or austrian discipline and the treatment of everybody as equal before. the lord, the presumption that

a person is innocent until proven guilty when you look at how you were treated or how some of the russian nationals are now being treated. what do you think happened to that concept? that all except as somebody who's studied law, i'm simply struck i'm, i'm shocked by what's going on. the way law has been twisted confiscation, cutting of bank accounts, lists have replaced loss. this is to put it in a nutshell to come back to which found which we discussed the foreign. ah, let me put it in a little bit of irony, but when you were accused of witchcraft and 17th century, you can walk to the court. or you were tortured, but at least you were told your crime. you had danced with the devil. you had a pie. some children are in my case, i only learnt by sheer coincidence that i'm blacklisted, and i don't even know my crimes. but the effect of that is, i'm not allowed to open a bank account. i'm not allowed to work. it's

a defect to prohibition to work, which i took into the fact of prohibition to leave. because if it's all half sources of income, how can you or you cannot open your bank account, this makes your life impossible. so, so when i compare it to the witch trials, the 17th century, which by the way also happened only in germany in law. there were some in there in the united states, as i know you and i sits but to my law, that's not in russia. you have by a guy who is a kind of more machine. it's a, she's more the kind which and she is a, she's both black and white and i think that's actually a distinct feature of the russian culture and the russian collective psychologist that we have seen our shadow. we have incorporated it and we know our own the evil, unlike the europeans who only see their, their shiny side. but seeing the world in that time frame, i had the many destructive consequences as you know,

in the 20th century. how is this treatment of you or of russians as bad russians and russians are treated collectively about nation? how is it different from my dividing people into uber and inter mentioned? yeah, they are not. this is, this is an old story that unfortunately we have seen pushed to the extreme on the aust fontes on front by the german army and also by the austrians or tools when it came to russians. the way women were treated, which as well went destroyed, ah, and, and which was left in the collective consciousness older than of the soldiers who came as occupiers liberation, whatever you call them depends on the, on the vantage point. when they arrived in berlin in vienna, in the case of, of, of russia, i would say it's also this old east west dichotomy. and that we can also go back to the ottoman war times. we can go back to the wars between persia and the creek. city states, you know, there's the big, far east, the wide to the dark,

the also terry and east. it all comes back now. and they stated that the light, why it's a shiny place of, of the west. i since i work a lot in indiana to our markets, i know the stereotypes when it comes to the air up muslim, shakes, blackmailing to poor western or consumer and all, with 1972, our crisis. it's still serial. clara are evil russians who are mounting day and now he has a weapon. now, seaman russia just wanted to, you know, since you mentioned your expertise in the energy field, i'm sure you've heard this recent revelations by seymour hersh, pulitzer prize winner about reportedly the american special services being behind on the explosions on the north stream pipelines. putting aside the morality of this issue, if we are, believe this a respectable journalist, why do you think that americans even needed to order something like that,

or to execute something like that because the europeans were already pretty disciplined in towing their line of why would they resort to such matters because it's essentially an industrial terrorism and it's also the shifting of the norms in, in a way. definitely i, i was sure that they would make the utmost that not string to which is only the expansion of an existing pipeline would never go online. that, that, that was my conviction, but i never expected them to blow it up on this, of course is, as you say, the act of terrorism is the preach of international relations. so, but they were obsessed with this topic, the really well in my account us and it was old time not to not stream ah, and a a pure obsession. how to put it. i gave a lot of thoughts to it, but i reside already in 2014 coming, not stream to was not yet on paper,

but we had then south stream and also the project to connect the russian. a terminal nova sylis twisted by gary and port. i think of boss up and there was a lot of pressure by the us under pin commission. they than sabotaged to protract and of the russians. i waited for a few months and what will happen and saw stream never materialized. so it was turned into 2 extreme and that was the time wonder turco russia and a to cooperation also started very, very solidly and played out since he is since he mentioned turkey. because turkey has a similar experience, a sort of wanting be to be part of for big. busy europe being pushed the way interfering in the european politics in, in many different ways over centuries, and now also preceding its own the very interesting game. how do you see these 2 countries play out both among themselves and though with europe given that the europe are so positional towards russia right now? do you think are the same treatment will be given to turkey swanson, or later?

well, i think for turkey to kias tail, fisher call themselves now r s. o has done it's up to most to be taken serious on an equal lover on there, where you related at various instances and earn who they are. now of course, i was wondering if, if your crate is admitted into your opinion in a some claim my to take 5 years aesthetic or anything girl or shorter. i did. it raises a lot of questions, not only in alcohol, also in other cities where, where people have been chewing up and fulfilling requirements on there that, that the turkish side, a sink looks at europe. no, not on the as an economic partner. there's also historic ties, as above all southeast europe, the balkans,

where the auto months represent at the near ottoman policy that has been practiced by the a could be, is very much into that. and there they are, they're present, they have good ties. but also let us not forget that as a jasper of millions of turks living in such europe, in the netherlands in germany, berlin is to force city of turks. after is temple is mca, it's berlin, with several 1000000 of turks. the rolled, it took years to day when in, in the current climate of conflict is the, are the only ones who still practice diplomacy in the general sense of diplomacy and you wrote about it in your other book about the, not the ard, but the craft of diplomacy, i like to look because it pays homage to the very complex and painstaking nature of this profession and takes a lot of knowledge. lot of grip. a lot of perseverance, a lot of our hard working. a bid, ofa. good luck. do you think we would ever come back to the,

to the craft of diplomacy, respecting, diplomacy as a profession? yeah. for that, it's the foot need also new recruitment policy. people who have, who are talented to we have a lot of until the 10th people. unfortunately, in, in, in and diplomatic stuff all across the cloak, but we have to more talented one. when it, when you go east, we have to more professional wants. when you go east of that is the core is plea in that turkish minister of foreign affairs inside the russian minister of foreign affairs where there's also this adult mindset that i'm missing and willingness to study your neighbor. and then that group perceiving yourself or had a shy and so we have seen it's, it stems from the united states. it's prop, very much practiced by you countries. this attitude of transforming the idea of transformative diplomacy. it's a technical term and u. s. foreign policy. look at what's going online, budapest, you have high ranking us officials arriving in budapest and telling them off,

you know, what has to happen? terms of media will test to happen in terms of touched. i mean, that's not the way to happen. we're talking on the background of for very tragic, we're, that's happening in the neighboring country and you have some understanding of both the russian mentality, you know, the russian liter personally. and i think you would agree with him with me rather than him or whatever. it wasn't, that was on his mind when he authorized this military operation, wasn't an easy decision for him knowing what he knows what he talks about, the ukraine. what do you see me ah, persuade him to call it quits. what do you think? would there persuade russia to put an end to this fighting? um, what it was from the very early days, a proxy void was from the very early day and ah, and antagonism. not only about territory, i'm in territories, once sing,

it never was a purely territorial dispute. it was one about the bigger topic of security security guarantees. and oh, since we have to either ladon psychology, collective consciousness, geography that you have in that area and days sir, there's an experience in the russian mindset that so there were these invasions, there was this fragmentation and also to roll off. let's go back to vienna. diplomacy of early 20th century, i always thought that the, the transport of linen from switzerland tor st. petersburg in 1917 was a last minute decision thought to get rid of the eastern front. no, sir, a book by an austrian historian like elizabeth harish. i learned that actually to have been a long along reach of far back, reaching into lay 18 ninety's,

a development in how to for command russia and is for port of debauchery movement, which was not him was what it was not the majority of representative movement of the russian stan, demand from the anna, the money from mister head pant, pavel saw organize all that. i was moving into it. it was all about trick mounting . russia and the dan minister of foreign affairs of austria said before 1914, i russia is too big that we can attack it. we will have to make sure they somehow implodes from inside. so do you think that they show me mindset of the current decision makers because they do not make an impression of people who actually study books. there's no history as complete a historical approach. but when you hear from think tanks, universities, people, and even there's now a sort of development of making you plus the waiting rooms, you know, to hear a pin community somehow recreated plus,

in writing may be russian regions or russian position as to say, it goes back to it affirms it goes back to frick mounting. well, madam and this has been a fascinating conversation. thank you very much for that. i can thank you for watching hope to see her again on worlds apart. ah mm mm mm. what happens with digital didn't with actual physical sport solving like digital reactors? yes. because on is preparing to host the 1st ever gains of the future,

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