minister of foreign affairs, karen nestle, madame is great to see you and welcome to russia. thank you very much for the kind of invitation, and it's always a pleasure to be in your country. now, before we delve into history and your politics, i want to ask you about your own. i post ministerial transition because i know that you had to leave your native country due to personnel and financial pressures. you 1st went to france, and then you eventually settled in lebanon, which is such an, a reversal of the traditional immigrant. good because we usually think of people moving from the middle is to europe. you made it the other way around. how has been this adventure been for you so far? what i, it's now nearly a year that arrived to lebanon. it was in spring last year with old events. and when i went, made my 1st administrative steps in, in may, in lebanon. and i said, i need the text number, i need to residency, paper, et cetera. the notary, i went to the lawyers only to see the asked me like, are you crazy?

you want to come to let alone you're settling and long, 15000 lebanese leaving for a month lebanon. alice said, yes, it's a y, as it were last problems in europe, and does much more freedom in lebanon than in europe. that's why i'm here. it's interesting, you say that because i, i also love lebanon. i used to go there when i was reporting on the war in syrian, it was such a respite. and one thing that stuck with me is you describing lebanon a as a place where you found a freedom of mind that this is a very interesting type of freed them. what do you mean by that? well, it's not freedom that is stipulated in, across attrition and a paper. it's not the oldest freedom commitments that are here all the time. i in such a european union. no, it's a freedom that is lived in the sense of live and let live, you know, people live next to each other. they don't live with each other. this is also effect on lebanon, was, is 18 different ethnic groups. every traveler station that we have seen throughout

the many chapters of protracted war. ah, but there is consensus. desdemona consanzo isn't as what europe is missing, where we only see black and white now in lebanon. you have grey. this is a very interesting question because i think lebanon is a very diverse society. if it's the gay capital of the middle east, they're very vibrant, ny 5. but during the day you, you will know that because it looks like a traditional, our muslim society. and i think it's a, a different, a more discrete, perhaps way of dealing with diversity where various groups have their spaces. and they also have some sort of a shared a ticket when they can be themselves without being in the other's faces. so it's done more tolerant their thing and more discreetly. how does it feel to you after a living for so many years in europe, which i think has a much more sort of in the face more demonstrative way all for showing your identity or whatever it is. well, you know,

are the europe that i always was grateful for has ceased to exist? and what, when i mean, does europe, it's a europe where you could do it is live and let live where you could have different opinions. 1520 years ago, it was completely normal that i like hosting people for lunch and dinner and i always had a wide spectrum of acquaintances. they were communists or a list aware of all kind of ethnic religious backgrounds. and you could sit down, share food, be a very divergent opinions, ah, disagree, but meet again. this is not any more possible to day. ah, you're cancelled. and whether you have, whether you're not going along with the majority opinion on a migration policy, like in 2015 when i started to have my skeptical positions on that. and i'm definitely not so far big. i'm definitely not the fascist. i enter summit or whatever. but i was labeled all that because i said back in 2015, it won't work. ha, how people saw it enough and, or whether it's now on russia,

whether it's on climate change, whether it's on your name to have her to topic there's only black and white. one thing that i cannot understand is that many europeans pride themselves on being true. democrats and they see russia, for example, as an authoritarian country. but the approach you are describing when everything is very manichean, black or white, either you are with the forces of good or with the forces of evil. it's very totalitarian in nature. do you think people understand that and is it a deliberate policy or a handful understand like 2 days ago, there was a headline in austin, online media kind, the format and foreign minister can isis back to the empire of eva? and the interesting thing was that in the chat rooms, a lot of people had some sort of supportive position and saying why we understand why you left europe. and the way you were chased out of our country is,

is tremendous. and we regretted saw that support from, from so readers if you want us or a lot of hatred from others coming out. but many people have realised that why are the pandemic wire this one year of war? and anybody who is, are asking for peace negotiations is considered a traitor, is considered a negative, bad side of the history. it's all about arms shipping. so where has this europe disappeared, where you had to racial discourse, where you had skepticism? i, i said already when i served as a minister that when i want to see a diets i travel to moscow to new dileo pitching white. when i went west of vienna, i was often confronted with elderly teenagers are emotional, not any more ational. now this is not just some moral pressure as far as i understand you faced real are obstacles to continue living your life with

dignity and ostrich. can you talk more about that? yeah, well i in the in 2020, and the panoramic started. maybe people had not the topic myself, but i, i, i faced immediate campaign against me that was weird. that was completely irrational. i was inter alia, it was just to give you 11 example accused of having the navi shock formula on my desk when i was minister. and which i had been experimenting according to the like a with the sorcerer, which had a photo that has kept, kept up coming again and again was to full to of a dance was so the president of the russian federation. so she had danced with the devil she is cooking poisoned, to kill animals. and i, and i had also that was all them brought up by the media last year. only that i am taking out to worry it was and it is a witch hunt. and it was so press taking that uncertain days, i couldn't press any more because i said to myself, but this is,

this is impossible. what is going on there? and the are, and i was in 2020, i still lived in austria. the tick dicked out a dock that i had taken from there, from doc shelter, which had been put to sleep, but a veterinarian accusing me of having killed the dog. and in the middle of them and their meal for the 1st time and legal history of austria, a dog was exhumed, you say in english, and there was an autopsy to prove that you didn't kill okay or. yeah, no, they wanted to prove that i closed magic seriously, but you come from a country that gave the world many or world renowned psychologists digman phrases yes or one of them, but there are many others. how do you explain these suddenly reversal of fortune? because, you know, maybe it's just asked the russians, but we associate europe with enlightenment values with critical thinking with our to appreciation our, for our all forms of diversity, not only political,

but there any other. how do you explain it to yourself? yeah. why? this is what i am and i started to write that stopped now because i had other things to do. a book which i call a rec room for europe, because the york you just described, it's the one i was always grateful for, not only proud of, but grateful for that. i could grow up in that quotes for announcement opinion without risking a lot and not even being mistaken. i'm in there and we only learned by mistakes. but i pity the youngsters of today because there's a lot of self censorship on many topics in schools that started with the migration topic. to my impression, it went on with the climate change tom back. it went on his panoramic how you see it. i mean, there was no, there was a real debate, it was either or, but never s. and, and now it's about russia and it's about, yes, we have to fight russia and russia has to be taken off the map. and at that,

who did this? it rush is thinking of the map. i wonder, what do you want to do with that huge hold of them in there, but, but there is a continent. is that all the, what i realized was this irrational anti russian sentiment, especially in austria and germany, which i had under estimated when i lived in france for years, something it was before the war. but i, when i said, i'm traveling to moscow next week to teach my landlord neighbors would say, oh hi, interesting are for a toy story. and there's lots of cultural perception of russia. so the french are much more relaxed when you speak about russia, not the case for drama and austria. now what are you doing? russia, you're, there was the mafia. you are, i mean, russia, this, a rash of phobia? is this russia, an anti russian sentiment, has come up again in austria and germany over the last few years. and i was like a collateral damage, you know, many people, especially as to want to take to russia. everybody was happy about the rich russian

tourist appliance and people who made large positive economic economy flow because stay that created accompanies there. but it was also the case that indiana medical doctors would say, we don't treat russians anymore. now are we talked about this use a family of it. let me ask about what there are many people here in russia. describers russian are. you are centrism and i've heard many political scientists suggest that over the last couple of centuries, russia has developed not only technological, but a psychological and almost a spiritual dependence on i, europe. we see europe as a, as an epitome of everything. positive progressive as this sort of and reachable eden, where we won a gold, but just like in the bible, there's always this is angel with a fiery sore that the gate and we are always being pushed her away from there. do you think or ra europe has ever been, what russia projected it to be? and when we look at the very rough figures of war us,

i would say the wars that we have seen in central and western europe when his, when we think of the wharf sir, 2 years when we think of other religious was protestant catholics, which was not only about religion, it was a power warf course. the figures are much higher than any kind of civil strife. you either had on russian territory or in the middle east. and, and the, the many, many wars that we have seen in on the european continent. it was always about either or it was always very black and white. and there did did auditor accomplishments that you have breasts rift that you're referring to, to europe. i know it from the middle east. i know it from us, from a generation that unfortunate has already disappeared. but when i was in my twenties, these people ran to seventy's and they had gone to cambridge to hide it back to paris. they were half french, half german in the hard. and they, they were in love with syrup and they taught me

a lot about european culture with stare passion for classical music of philosophy. which sometimes we, the europeans, i would say, under estimated as our cultural legacy we need it may be that on a russian emigrants or a lebanese, a student would mom, troy attention to and the, and the did the europe that you're referring to existence in between it was maybe at the court of y, marvin sheila and grew to where discussing and have a double stair. i mean that there was this strong competition between so many small courts made a big difference from, between a russian history and, and the many european histories you have. because there's not one is that um, especially in the, on the territory of what is to the germany, austria, and at a central european countess. it was quote, a holy roman and pile of germination, which they facto were hundreds of small quarts of very small quotes. bowden,

bowden by ama tooling an ad. but that also led to competition. and you had to miss santa hats. cowan saw dukes who tried to attract the most the brightest minds of those time. some of them went bankrupt while investing in our it's our new causes. but that's also brought competition, auntie otts level on the university level, to give you an example that was met him fair. so you can give me that example after a short break, but we have to take it right now. we will be back in just a moment. ah ah, ah,

to come to the russian state will never be tied up on the most 19 with eclipse in 55 with speedy when else with will ban in the european union. the kremlin media machine, the state on russia for date, and r t spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all band on youtube. with me, look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a

robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence at that point obviously is too great trust, rather than fear like take on various job with artificial intelligence, real summoning with a robot must protect its own existence with ah ah, welcome back to world worth with austria. his former minister of foreign affairs,

carrington a. so i'm class of before i so rudely interrupted you, you were talking about how this a positive impression, all 5 germany and the broader europe was actually rooted in reality in the previous centuries. but i think it was also the russian perception of the 20th century, especially associated with the rule of law because ah, i was born in the waning years of the soviet union. and i remember, you know, london approach and being very young, even when he was vice mayor of fi st. petersburg, my hometown there was a lot of talk about, you know, german law or austrian discipline and the treatment of everybody as equal before. the lord, the presumption that a person is innocent until proven guilty when you look at how you were treated or how some of the russian nationals are now being treated. what do you think happened to that concept rental, except as somebody who's studied law,

i'm simply struck i'm, i'm shocked by what's going on. the way law has been twisted confiscation, cutting of bank accounts, lists have replaced loss. this is to put it in a nutshell to come back to which hand, which we'll discuss before and, ah, let me put it in a little bit of irony. but when you were accused of witchcraft and 17th century, you can walk to the court. you were tortured, but at least that you were told your crime. you had danced with the devil. you had a pie, some children. ah, in my case, i only learned by sheer coincidence that i'm blacklisted and i don't even know my cripes. but the effect of that is, i'm not allowed to open a bank account. i'm not allowed to work. it's a defective prohibition to work. which i actually the fact to prohibition to leave because if it's all half sources of income, how can you or you cannot open your bank account, this makes your life impossible. so, so when i compare it to the witch trials,

the 17th century, which by the way also happened only in germany, english, there were some in that in the united states as in the united states. but to my knowledge, not in russia, you have by jago, who is a kind of more machine. it's a, she's more the kind which and she is a, she's both black and white. and i think that's actually a distinct feature of the russian culture and the russian collective psychologist that we have seen our shadow. we have incorporated it and we know our own the evil on lived the europeans who only see their, their shiny side. but seeing the world in that time frame, i had the many destructive consequences as you know, in the 20th century. how is this treatment of you or of russians as bad russians and russians are treated collectively as, as a bad nation? how is it different from my dividing people into uber and inter mentioned yeah, yeah, no, this is,

this is an old story that unfortunately we have seen pushed to the extreme on the aust fontes on front by the german army and also by the austrians or just when it came to russians, the way women were treated which as well, why destroyed ok and, and which was left in the collective consciousness older than of the soldiers who came as occupiers liberation, whatever you call them depends on the, on the when touch point, when they arrived in berlin in vienna, in, in, in, in the case of, of, of russia, i would say it's also this old east west dichotomy. and that we can also go back to the ottoman war times. we can go back to the wars between persia and the crick city states. you know, there's the big, far east, the wives of the dark, the also terry and east. it all comes back now. and they said that the lights are wide. so shiny place of, of the west i've, since i work a lot in indiana to oil markets,

i know the stereotypes when it comes to the air up muslim shanks, blackmailing to pul, western, or consumer and all, with 1972, our crisis. it's still a stereotype. they're evil russians who are mounting day as a weapon. now is even russia this like, you know, since you mentioned your expertise in the energy field, i'm sure you've heard this recent revelations where seymour hersh pulitzer prize winner about reportedly the american special services being behind on the explosions on the north stream pipelines. putting aside the morality of this issue, if we believe this a respectable journalist, why do you think the americans even needed to order something like that, or to execute something like that? because the europeans were already pretty disciplined in towing their line of why would they resort to set up matters because it's essentially an industrial terrorism. and it's also the shifting of the norms in, in a way. definitely i,

i was sure that they would make the utmost that not string to which is only the expansion of an existing pipeline would never go online. that, that, that was my conviction, but i never expected them to blow it up on this, of course is, as you say, the act of terrorism is the preach of intimate relations. so, but they were obsessed with this topic, the really well in my account us and it was old time not strand, not stream ah, and a pure obsession. how to put it. i gave a lot of thoughts to it, but i reside already in 2014 coming, not stream to was not yet on paper, but we had then south stream and also the project to connect the russian. a terminal nova sylis twisted by gary and port. i think of boss up and there was a lot of pressure by the us under pin commission. they than sabotaged to protract.

as the russians, i waited for a few months and what will happen and fostering never materialized. so it was turned into 2 extreme and that was the time when the turco russia and a 2 corporation also started very, very solidly implant. i didn't see it since you mentioned turkey, because turkey has a similar experience, a sort of wanting be to be part of for big europe being pushed the way interfering in the european politics in, in many different ways over centuries. and now also preceding its own the very interesting game. how do you see these 2 countries play out both among themselves and though with europe given that the europe are so positional toward sir russia right now? do you think are the same treatment will be given to turkey sooner or later? well, i think for turkey to kia tail, fisher call themselves now are as oh, has done it's up to most to be taken serious on an equal lover. and they were you

related at various instances and earn who they are. now of course i was a wandering if, if your credit is admitted into your opinion, in some claim my to take 5 years esthetic or anything girl or shorter. ah, it, it raises lot of questions not only in alcohol, also in other cities where, where people have been chewing up and fulfilling requirements. oh, dear. and that, that the turkish side as think, looks at europe. no, not on the as an economic partner. and there's also historic ties this buff all southeast europe, the balkans, where the auto months were present at the near altamont. policy that has been practiced by the acre b is very much into that and their, their, their present ethical ties. but also let us not forget that as a jasper of millions of turks living, in fact,

europe in the netherlands in germany. berlin is to force city of turks. after is temple is america. it's berlin, with several 1000000 of turks. the road that took years to day when in, in the current climate of conflict is the, are the only ones who still practice diplomacy in the general sense of diplomacy and you wrote about it and your other book about the not the ard, but the craft of diplomacy, i like to look because it pays homage to the very complex and painstaking nature of this profession and takes a lot of knowledge, lot of grief. a lot of perseverance, a lot of for hard work and a bid ofa. good luck. do you think me would ever come back to the, to the craft of diplomacy, respecting, diplomacy as a profession? yeah. for that, it's the foot need also new recruitment policy for people who have, who are talented to we have a lot of until the 10th people, unfortunately in, in,

in and diplomatic stuff all across the cloak. but we have to more talented one. when it, when you go east, we have to more professional wants. when you go east of that is the core is plea in that turkish minister of foreign affairs inside the russian minister of foreign affairs where there's also this adult mindset that i'm missing and willingness to study your neighbor. and then record perceiving yourself. i had a shy and so we have seen it's, it's stamped from the united states. it's prop, very much practiced by ear countries. this attitude of transforming the audio, transformative diplomacy. it's a technical term and u. s. foreign policy. look at what's going on now in budapest you have high ranking u. s. officials arriving in budapest and telling them off, you know, what has to happen in terms of media will test to happen in terms of touched. i mean, that's not the way to happen. we're talking on the background of for very tragic war that's happening in the neighboring country and you have some understanding of

both the russian mentality, you know, the russian liter personally. and i think you would agree with him with me rather than him or whatever. it wasn't, that was on his mind when he authorized this military operation wasn't an easy decision for him knowing what he knows what he talks about, the ukraine. what do you see me ah, persuade him to. busy call it quits. what do you think would her persuade russia to put an end to this fighting? oh, well, it was from the very early days. a proxy void was from the very early day, an awe and antagonism. not only about territory, i mean, territories, ones sing, never was a few. the territorial dispute, it was one about the bigger topic of security security guarantees. and oh, since we have to, i the loudon psychology, collective consciousness,

geography that you have in that area. and there is, sir, there's an experience in russia mindset that so there were this invasions, there was this fragmentation and also to roll off. let's go back to vienna. diplomacy of early 20th century. i always thought that the, the transport of linen from switzerland tor st. petersburg in 1917 was the last minute decision tour to get rid of the eastern front. no, sir. a book by an austrian historian like elizabeth parish. i learned that actually have been a long, a long reach, a far back, reaching into lay 18 ninety's, a development in how to for command russia and does support of debauchery movement, which was not em most what it was not the majority of representative movement of the russian stan, demand from the anna, their money from mister haled pant,

pavel saw, organize all that. i was moving into it. it was all about frank mounting. russia and the dan minister of foreign affairs of austria said before 1914, i russia is too big that we can attack it. we will have to make sure that it somehow implodes from inside. so do you think that this will remind side of the current decision makers because they do not make an impression of people who actually study books does no history does come to a historical approach. but when you hear from think tanks, universities, people, and even that is now a thought of development of, of, of making you plus the waiting rooms in all the european communities, somehow recreated plus in y thing may be russian region for russian, a position as to say, it goes back to it, to ferns. it goes back to frick mounting. while matter with this has been a fascinating conversation. thank you very much for that. i thank you for watching

hope to see her again on the world's apart ah with . mm hm. ah

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