and for the europeans to centuries ago, napoleon, despite considering russia and natural allies, decided to punish him for rebuking a french embargo and lost much of his army. in that effort, in the 20th century, the germans made their move meant the same fate. can europe close this historical gestalt, this time around? by joining forces against russia in ukraine? to discuss that now joined by austria's former minister of foreign affairs. karen nestle. madame is great to see you and welcome to russia. thank you very much for the kind of invitation, and it's always a pleasure to be in your country. now, before we delve into history and your politics, i want to ask you about your own post ministerial transition, because i know that you had to leave your native country due to personal and financial pressures. you 1st went to france and then you eventually settled in lebanon, which is such a reversal of the traditional immigrant. good because we usually think of people moving from the middle is to europe. you made it the other way around. how has been

this adventure been for you so far? what i, it's now nearly a year that are after lebanon. it was in spring last year with old events. and when i went, made my 1st administrative steps in may in lebanon, and i said, i need to text number, i need to residency, paper, et cetera. the notary, i went to the lawyers, i went to c. d asked me like, are you crazy? you want to come to left alone, you're settling in the long, 15000 lebanese, leaving for a months lebanon. and i said, yes, it's a y, as it will last problems in europe, and does much more freedom in lebanon than in europe. that's why i'm here. it's interesting, you say that because i, i also love lebanon. i used to go there when i was reporting on the war in syria, and it was such a respite. and one thing that stuck with me is you describing lebanon as a place where you found a freedom of mind that this is a very interesting type of freed them. what do you mean by that?

while it's not the freedom that is stipulated in across a to shana paper, it's not the oldest freedom commitments that we're here all the time. i in such a european union. no, it's a freedom that is lived in the sands of live and let live, you know, people live next to each other. they don't live with each other. this is also effect on lebanon, was, is 18 different ethnic groups. every traveler station that we have seen throughout the many chapters of protracted war. ah, but there's consensus, does the minus consanzo isn't as what europe is missing, where we only see black and white now in lebanon. you have grey. this is an very interesting question because i think lebanon is a very diverse society. if it's the gay capital of the middle east, they're very vibrant, ny 5. but during the day you, you will know that because it looks like a traditional, our muslim society. and i think it's a, a different, a more discrete, perhaps way of dealing with diversity where various groups have their spaces. and

they also have some sort of a shared a ticket when they can be themselves without being in the other's faces. so it's done more tolerant their thing and more discreetly. how does it feel to you after a living for so many years in europe, which i think has a much more sort of in the face more demonstrative way all for showing your identity, whatever it is, or you know, are the europe that i always was grateful for has ceased to exist. and what, when i mean, does europe, it's a europe where you could do it is let of and let live where you could have different opinions. 1520 years ago, it was completely normal that i like hosting people for lunch and dinner. and i always had a wide spectrum of acquaintances. there were communists or ellis to where of all kind of ethnic religious backgrounds. and you could sit down, share food, be a very divergent opinions. ah, this, a cree, but meet again. this is not any more possible to day. and you're cancelled. and

whether you have, whether you're not going along with the majority opinion on a migration policy, like in 2015 when i started to have my skeptical positions on that. and i'm definitely not so far big. i'm definitely not the fascist. i enter summit or whatever. but i was labeled all that because i said back in 2015, it won't work. how people saw it enough. and so whether it's now on russia, whether it's on climate change, whether it's on your name. if you have the topic, there's only black and white. one thing that i cannot understand is that many europeans pride themselves on being true democrats and they see russia, for example, as an authoritarian country. but the approach you are describing when everything is very manichean, black or white, either you are with the forces of good or with the forces of evil. it's very totalitarian in nature. if do you think people understand that, and is it

a deliberate policy or a handful understand like 2 days ago, there was a headline in austin, online media kind, the format and foreign minister can isis back to the empire of eva? and the interesting thing was that in the chat rooms, a lot of people had some sort of supportive position and saying why we understand why you left europe. and the way you were chased out of our country is, is, is tremendous. and we regretted saw that support from, from so readers if you want us or a lot of hatred from others coming out. but many people have realised that why are the pandemic wire this one year of war? and anybody who is, are asking for peace negotiations is considered a traitor, is considered a negative bedside of the history. it's all about arms shipping. so where has this? europe disappeared, where you had to rational discourse, where you had skepticism?

i said already when i served as a minister that when i want to see a diets i travel to moscow to new dileo pitching white. when i went west of vienna, i was often confronted with elderly teenagers. are emotional, not any more ational. now this is not just some moral pressure as far as i understand. you faced real r o obstacles to continue living your life with dignity and ostrich. can you talk more about that? yeah, well, i'm in the in 2020, and the panoramic started. maybe people had not the topic of myself, but i, i, i faced immediate campaign against me. that was weird. that was completely irrational. i was inter alia, it was just to give you 11 example accused of having the navi shock formula on my desk when i was minister. and which i had been experimenting according to the like a with the sorcerer, which i, the photo that has kept,

kept up coming again. and again was the photo of a dance, was so the president of the russian federation. so she had danced with the devil she is cooking poisoned, to kill animals. and i, and i had also that was all of them brought up by the media last year. only that i am taking out to worry it was and it is a witch hunt. and it was so press taking that uncertain days, i couldn't press any more because i said to myself, but this is, this is impossible. what is going on there? and d, a and i, a in 2020, i still lived in austria. the tick dicked out a dark that i had taken from there, from doc shelter, which had been put to sleep, but a veterinarian accusing me of having killed the dock and in the middle of them. and they, me, for the 1st time, a legal history of austria, a dog was exhumed, you say in english. and there was an autopsy to prove that you didn't kill okay or . yeah, no, they wanted to prove that i closed magic seriously. but if you come from

a country that gave the world many worlds renown psychologist digman phrases or one of them, but there are many others. how do you explain this sudden reversal of fortune? because, you know, maybe it's just asked the russians, but we associate your with enlightenment values with critical thinking with to appreciation. now for our all forms of diversity, not only political but there any other. how do you explain it to yourself? yeah, well this is what i am and i started to ride. i stopped now because i had other things to do a book which i call a rec room for europe because the york you just described, it's the one i was always grateful for. not only proud of but grateful for that. i could grow up in that quotes for announcement opinion without risking a lot and not even being mistaken. i'm in there and we all learned by mistakes. but

i pity the youngsters of today because there's a lot of self censorship on many topics in schools that started with the migration topic. to my impression, it went on with the climate change tom back. it went on his panoramic how you see it. i mean, there was no, there was a real debate, it was either or, but never s. and, and now it's about russia and it's about, yes, we have to fight russia and russia has to be taken off the map. and at that, how did this, it rush is thinking of them up. i wonder, what do you want to do with that huge hold of them in there, but, but there is a continent. is that all the, what i realized was this irrational anti russian sentiment, especially in austria and germany, which i had under estimated when i lived in france for years, something it was before the war. but i, when i said, i'm traveling to moscow next week to teach my landlord neighbors would say, oh hi, interesting are for a close thought. there's lots of cultural perception of russia. so the french are much more relaxed when you speak about russia,

not the case for drama and austria. now what are you doing? russia, you're, there was the mafia. you are. i mean, russia, this, a rash of phobia? is this russia an anti russian sentiment has come up again in austria and germany over the last few years. and i was like a collateral damage, you know, many people, especially as to want to take to russia. everybody was happy about the rich russian tourist lions and people who made large parts of their canal economy flow because state created accompanies there. but it was also the case that indiana medical doctors would say, we don't treat russians anymore. now are we talked about this was a family of it. let me ask about what many people here in russia describers russian are. you are centrism and i've heard many political scientists suggest that over the last couple of centuries, russia has develop not only technological, but a psychological and almost a spiritual dependence on i, europe. we see europe as a,

as an epitome of everything. positive progress. if as this sort of and reachable even where we want to go, but just like in the bible, there's always this is angel with a fiery song that the gate and we are always being pushed her away from there. do you think or ra europe has ever been? what's russia projected it to be? and when we look at the very rough figures of war us, i would say the wars that we have seen in central and western europe when his, when we think of the war for 2 years, when we think of other religious was protestant catholics, which was not only about religion, it was a power warf course. the figures are much higher than any kind of civil strife. you either had on russian territory or in the middle east. and, and the, the many, many wars that we have seen in on the european continent. it was always about either or it was always very black and white. and there did

order accomplishments that you have breasts rift that you're referring to, to europe. i know it from the middle east. i know it from us, from a generation that unfortunate as already disappeared. but when i was in my twenties, these people ran to seventy's and they had gone to cambridge to hide it back to paris. they were half french, half german in the hard. and they, they were in love with syrup and they taught me a lot about european culture with stare passion for classical music of philosophy. which sometimes we, the europeans, i would say, under estimated, as our cultural legacy we need it may be that on a russian m, a grand or a lebanese a student would. wow, troy attention to and learn that the europe that you're referring to existed in between. it was maybe at the court of y. marvin schiller and good sir were discussing and heather was there. i mean that there was this strong

competition between so many small courts, maybe the big difference from between a russian history and, and the many european histories you have. because there's not one is that um, especially in the, on the territory of what is to the germany, austria and other central european countries. it was, quote, a holy roman empire germination, which they factor were hundreds of small quarts of very small quartz. pardon barden by mar, tooling an hour, but that also led to competition and you had to miss san you had counsellor dukes who tried to attract the most the brightest minds of those time. some of them went bankrupt while investing in art or a new courses. but that's also brought competition on the arts level on the university level to give you an example that was met him vessel. you can give me that example after short break, but we have to take it right now. we will be back in just

a moment. ah, how ah ah ah

ah ah welcome back to world to part with austria, former minister of foreign affairs, karen, can i so i'm can i so before i so rudely interrupted you, you were talking about how this positive impression all 5 germany and the broader europe was actually rooted in reality, in the previous centuries,

but i think it was also the russian perception of the 20th century, especially associated with the rule of law because i, i was born in the waning years of the soviet union. and i remember, you know, london approaching, being very young, even when he was vice mayor of fi st. petersburg, my hometown, there was a lot of talk about german law or austrian discipline and the treatment of everybody as equal before. the lord, the presumption that a person is innocent until proven guilty when you look at how you were treated or how some of the russian nationals are now being treated on. what do you think happened to that concept? the rental, except as somebody who's studied law, i'm simply struck i'm, i'm shocked by what's going on on the way law has been twisted confiscation, cutting of bank accounts, lists have replaced loss. this is to put it in

a nutshell to come back to which fund which we've discussed before. and, ah, let me put it in a little bit of irony. but when you were accused of witchcraft and 17th century, you can walk to the court. you were tortured, but at least that you were told your crime you had danced with the devil. you had a pie. some children are in my case, i only learned by sheer coincidence that i'm blacklisted and i don't even know my cripes. but the effect of that is, i'm not allowed to open a bank account. i'm not allowed to work. it's a defacto prohibition to work, which i is actually the fact of prohibition to leave because if they all have sources of income, how can you or you cannot open your bank account, this makes your life impossible. so when i compare it to the witch trials of 17th century, which by the way also happened only in germany, english, there were some in there in the united states and the united states. but to my knowledge, not in russia, you have by jago, who is a kind of more,

most units are. she's more the kind which and she is a, she's both black and white. and i think that's actually a distinct feature of the year russian culture and the russian collective psychologist that we have seen our shadow. we have incorporated it and we know our own the evil. unlike the europeans who only see their, their shiny side, but seeing the world in that time frame, i had the many destructive consequences as you know, in the 20th century. how is this treatment of you or of russians as bad russians and russians are treated collectively as a, as a bad nation? how is it different from my dividing people into uber and inter mentioned? yeah, they are not. this is, this is an old story that unfortunately we have seen pushed to the extreme on the aust fontes on front by the german army and also by the austrians or just when it came to russians. the way women were treated which as well were destroyed. and,

and, and which was left in the collective consciousness older than of the soldiers who came as occupiers liberation, whatever you call them, depends on the, on the vantage point. when they arrived in berlin in vienna, in the case of, of, of russia, i would say it's also this old east west dichotomy. and that we can also go back to the ottoman war times. we can go back to the wars between persia and the crick city states. you know, there's the big, far east, the wives of the dark, the also terry and east. it all comes back now. and they stated that the lights are wide. so shiny place of, of the west i since i work a lot in indiana to our markets, i know the stereotypes when it comes to the air up muslim, shakes, blackmailing to pul, western eye, conceal way and all. with 1972, our crisis. it's still a stereotype or evil russians who are as

a weapon. now is even russia disliking as since you mentioned your expertise in the energy field. i'm sure you've heard this recent revelations by seymour hersh, pulitzer prize winner about reportedly the american special services being behind on the explosions on the north stream pipelines. putting aside the morality of this issue, if we believe this a respectable journalist, why do you think the americans even needed to order something like that, or to execute something like that? because the europeans were already pretty disciplined in towing their line of why would they resort to say measures because it's essentially an industrial terrorism . and it's also the shifting of the norms in, in a way. definitely i, i was sure that they would make the utmost that not string to which is only the expansion of an existing pipeline would never go online. that, that, that was my conviction, but i never expected them to blow it up. ah, this of course is, as you said,

an act of terrorism as the preach of intimate relations. so, but they were obsessed with this topic, the really well in my account us. and it was old time not to not stream ah, and a pure obsession. how to put it. i gave a lot of thoughts to it, but i reside already in 2014 coming not stream to was not yet on paper, but we had then south stream and also the project to connect the russian. a terminal nova phyllis twisted by gary and port, i think of both up and there was a lot of pressure by the us under pin commission. they than sabotaged to protract. as the russians, i waited for a few months and what will happen and sa stream never materialized. so it was turned into 2 extreme and that was the time when to turco, russia and a 2 corporation also started very, very solidly and played out since he is since he mentioned turkey. because turkey

has a similar experience, a sort of wanting be to be part of for big europe being pushed the way interfering in the european politics in, in many different ways over centuries. and now also preceding its own the very interesting game. how do you see these 2 countries play out both among themselves and though with europe given that the europe are so positional toward sir russia right now? do you think are the same treatment will be given to turkey sooner or later? well, i think for turkey to kia tail, fisher call themselves now are, has, oh, has done it's utmost to be taken serious on an equal lover. and they were you related at various instances and learn who they are. now of course, i was wondering if, if your crate is admitted into your opinion in

a some claim might take 5 years granted, single or shorter. and it did. it raises a lot of questions, not only in alcohol, also in other cities where, where people have been chewing up and fulfilling requirements on there that, that the turkish side as think, looks at europe. no, not on the as an economic partner. there's also historic ties. this buff, all southeast europe, the balkans, where the auto months were present at the near altamont policy that has been practiced by the acre b is very much into that, and there they are, they're present, they have good ties. but also let us not forget that as a desperate of millions of turks living inside europe in the netherlands in germany . berlin is to force city of turks after it's done pool is america. it's berlin, with several 1000000 of turks. the rolled at to kia has today, when in, in,

in the current climate of conflict is the, are the only ones who still practice diplomacy in the general sense of diplomacy. and he wrote about it and your other book about the not the art, but the craft of diplomacy. i like to load because it pays homage to the very complex and painstaking nature of this profession and takes a lot of knowledge. lot of great. a lot of perseverance, a lot of for hard work and a bid ofa. good luck. do you think we would ever come back to the, to the craft of diplomacy, respecting, diplomacy as a profession? yeah. for that it's, they put me, it was a new recruitment policy for people who have, who are talented to we have a lot of until it tend people, unfortunately in, in, in and diplomatic stuff all across the cloak. but we have to more talented one. when it, when you go east, we have to more professional wants. when you go east of that is the core is plea in that turkish minister of foreign affairs inside the russian minister of foreign

affairs where there's also does have doubts mindset that i'm missing and willingness to study your neighbor. and then that group perceiving yourself or had a shy and so we have seen it's, it stems from the united states. it's prop, very much practiced by your countries. this attitude of transforming the idea of transformative diplomacy. it's a technical term and u. s. foreign policy. look at what's going on now in budapest, you half high ranking us officials arriving in budapest and telling them off, you know, what has to happen. terms of media will test to happen in terms of, of, of, to just. i mean, that's not the way to happen. we're talking on the background though, for very tragic, we're, that's happening in the neighboring country and you have some understanding of both the russian mentality, you know, the russian liter personally. and i think you would agree with him with me rather than him or whatever. it wasn't, that was on his mind when he authorized this military operations wasn't an easy

decision for him knowing what he knows what he talks about the ukraine. what do you seeing me, ah, persuade him to. busy call it quits. what do you think would her persuade russia to put an end to this fighting? oh, well, it was from the very early days. a proxy void was from the very early day, an awe and antagonism. not only about territory, i mean, territories, ones, sing, never was it. to the territorial dispute. it was one about the bigger topic of security security guarantees. and, oh, since we have to, i the loudon psychology, collective consciousness, geography that you have in that area. and days sir, there's an experience in russia. mine said that her, there were this invasions, there was this fragmentation and also to roll off. let's go back to vienna.

diplomacy of early 20th century. i always thought that the, the transport of linen from switzerland tor st. petersburg in 1917 was the last minute decision tour to get rid of the eastern front. no, sir, a book by an austrian historian like elizabeth harish. i learned that actually to have been a long, a long reach, a far back, reaching into lay 18 ninety's. a development in how to, for command russia and as for port of debauchery movement, which was not em muscle, it was not a majority of representative movement of the russian stem demand from vienna. the money from mister hed pants, powerful so organized all that ah, was moving into it. it was all about frequenting russia and the then minister of foreign affairs of austria sat before 1914. ah,

or russia is too big that we can attack it. we will have to make sure that it somehow implodes from inside. so do you think that this will remind said of the current decision makers because they do not make an impression of people who actually study, he know books. there's no history as complete a historical approach, but when you hear from think tanks, universities, people, and even there's now a sort of development of, of making you plus the waiting rooms in all the european communities. somehow recreated plus in whiting may be russian regions or russia position as to say, it goes back to it affirms it goes back to frick mounting. well, madam and this has been a fascinating conversation. thank you very much for that. i can thank you for watching hope to see her again on worlds apart. ah

with me ah, a i really thought that we were gonna die. fly before i saw the things i crawled all the way to the right. so i hid behind death. gone by 2 years before i was even born and this is had to be done in again and again and again. and again, will continue to stick with the system i, i don't,

we want a basically we want to make sure that certain weapons that are just too dangerous or regular civilian should be in the hands of those people who are and say that's hoffman said no way i was just a star ah ah. hello and welcome to cross off. were all things were considered. i'm peter labelle, one year ago. not one person could have predicted the course of the conflict in ukraine. but here we are. on this edition of the program, we reflect on the last 12 months how, how's the conflict changed? russia, ukraine, the west and indeed the world.