united states, so it is going to keep corporation unitarian or military because will kill us in the last is and so is on thanks so much for joining us there in moscow and going live with us. thanks again for your time to. oh, to the us. hundreds of people have marsh and an anti war rally in washington dc, expressing outrage at u. s. involvement. the ukraine conflicts the rally was called range against the war machine processors demanded an end to u. s. military aid for keith. i'm call for russia. and you going to see the physically with the home organized, why the libertarian and peoples are these are the demonstration was billed as the country's largest, and he was running the us invasion of iraq in 2003. the rally featured

speakers from across the principal spectrum including forma, ron full, x presidential, nominee, healthy god, and political commentator, and comedian jimmy door. the people are those all the whistle blowers program, john curio who was at the rally. he says people there race. he questions about the u. s. dominated nato military alliance. one of the questions that's been asked repeatedly, bite speaker after speaker after speaker, is why is there even a needle? why does nato exist? once upon a time, nato existed to protect the united states in western europe from the soviet union. the soviet threat, united states no longer exists. so why is there a nato? is it to fight in afghanistan or iraq? because that's what's happened over the last 20 years. and why does it keep moving eastward, closer and closer and closer to russia. despite promises repeated promises by the

united states and other nato countries that such expansion wouldn't happen. so yes, a lot of the speakers here are, are say not only that nato should not be involved in supplying weapons and material and money if you pray. but that nato sit exist in the 1st place while that. so for this news, our up next p to level is on cross local will be by a little ah, [000:00:00;00] ah ah,

ah hello and welcome to cross top. we're all things are considered. i'm peter labelle, one year ago. now, one person could have predicted the course of the conflict in ukraine. but here we are on this edition of the program. we reflect on the last 12 months, how, how's the conflict changed? russia ukraine, the west, and indeed the world. ah, ah, discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess, george samuel leon, budapest. he's a podcast or at the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals. and here in moscow, cross to dmitri bobbitt, she's a political analyst and editor. it was me, internet media project. quite gentleman, cross talk roles and the fact that means you can jump any time you want. and i would appreciate it. right, george, you know, reflecting upon the last 12 months, it's a big endeavor for

a program that is short as ours. so i'll start out 1st. i think that, you know, the biggest thing that i become aware of this, just how anti russia the west is because this is very little, have very little to do about ukraine. you have my, michael mcfall, you have timothy timothy schneider. you know, they let the mass drop, you know, this is about the breakup of russia regime change the usual playbook that we've seen over the last 30 years. and they're not even hiding it anymore. and that's going to have a very big impact on how this conflict is eventually resolved. your thoughts, though, that's a very interesting take and it has been stunning for the hostility outright hostility in much of the western. whoa. ok to ward russia just because, you know, we, we would always known about this a latent hostility. and we've known about this un,

from the time of the $900.00 century and russia on, but it will be subsumed by the coal that, well, the only issue is communism this are, you know, we, we, we, we, you know, we love the russian people. absolutely. a door, russian culture or music russian literature from painting. love it all. we just hate the communist and you know, the terrible things of the communist, another subjugated eastern europe and so on. and so on. the all that has just, it dropped away and you know, it's very hard to understand. what is it that you hate so much about russia? other than that, if you somehow see them as the other, as a somehow they, you know, it's a, it's a culture and it's a civilization alien to you. and it is quite remarkable, the extent to which a racism is

a perfectly sanction. as long as a doing this about russia, as long as it russia, that is to become them, is to feel absolutely alien. i mean, whenever you pick up any media outlet, it's always something about russian spies, russian interference. and it could continue, continue generation or facility toward everything russian. yeah, it's, it's almost kind of like a full key on the end of the history. thing is what's, what's the russians are taken out then? you know, things the world will be a better, brighter place. it's a, it's like the grand solution. you're russia, we're talking about your country here. i mean, what, what is that? what's your major take away because, you know, that was mine also. i think about media. how that is a very controlled message like we've never seen before. we'll talk about that your thoughts, my friend. i agree with george. you all russia. that other is very important

. i would what would they could teacher and you know, the other, who helps you in this case, the west or construct your role. basically a identity, you know, that the see like is very simple. he is back, i am not healed. that means i'm right. and the fact the russians look like the west, they want to say no rational repeats. they look away to be it's, it makes it even more lesson because i'm different. lot in the color of my skin color, my care. i'm different because of my family. this is what they're doing and the stony nash this laugh. to repeat the say, old roger, look like you, but don't get to see and ask us. we will tell you how these people are different. so of course, this is rachel,

and one of their most interesting elements. all this prejudice has been our food in for the whole year, how the western out to liberalism and that you know, kind of shifts e and these elements. or if you will be in mesh the vital and power of the west is trying to pull this ultra americanism service, you know, using the hatred of ukraine towards russia using the pedro or old you can actually towards russia. but let me quote one of your recent talks with george. i love the thought of gorge. great bowers remain great bowers. precisely because they're wise enough not to fight other grade because of that that's less than your glow. and that's, that undermines your mind. you can talk about the outcome of all this. ok,

it is not clear how are these clear that the west will get out of this week and, you know, the united states will be weaker than it was before the me know, you're at the me, you're absolutely right. but george, that's not what the narrative will be. i mean, i think you and i have talked about this before. if the conflict were to be settled right now with the facts on the ground right now to victory, they didn't make it to the english channel. we were, i mean that, that is that, that is a reflection of just how propagandized this entire endeavor has been. there is absolutely no descent. i mean, you can really think cancel culture will come after you with a vengeance. george? yes. and that's what i was thinking about. the program is just how spread the nato propaganda system is. have you ever,

ever since 2008, every single nato meeting has come? you come to the conclusion that ukraine will be a member of nato. every single one of your grade will be a member of nato. and then what does a friend sergeant schultz say a last year just because of russia, so special military operations? nobody seriously talking about new grade being a member of it. you said it, you said it every single year. you agree with george. and on top of that, after the 2014, my don qu, what did nato do? started turning ukraine into a garrison state with one purpose is to attack and quote, unquote liberate the don bass, which would weaken russia. ok, so you know, has nothing to do with it. exactly. and we have a meeting again, which is still going on with them unit security conference,

and there is a stolen but once again, as the, as on many occasions we have been in ukraine since 2014 helping arming training ukrainians. well then, how can you go on say, on provoked attack, that's what you've been doing. you will be arming and ukrainians walk. go for essentially mount in offensive and ending the war in the don't bass. if the one thing that this is not is a vote and they keep saying this, and it's like, again, you know, russia, russia is unjust. they though, has said themselves, a lot of prison for president of france will not go for chance of germany or shrinking all the people who are in minutes and 20142015. they said we never took when seriously, basically there was a, we were just buying time. you know, when we can mounted offensive and take

a re take this on. but what was your line all easy? is you a line? and then you have a goal to say that this was unprovoked, this is an unjustified war. you know, came in glad to george brought up the munich security conference. it's an annual event in 2007 vladimir putin basically put down russia's marker and has not moved away from it since. but isn't it interesting, george, they call it a security conference, but they don't talk about security because if they did, it would be indivisible. and that's again over the last 12 months. that the fact that the, the west is not to talk seriously about security also will have an impact on how this conflict is resolved. if they had changed track, it would impact the outcome in a different way. and i'm absolutely for talking about security and peace. the west doesn't talk about either as matter fact they're against both demon. well, it certainly propaganda on for a sec. you know, can you talk about security when you have

a gmc addressing the start of the conference with classical music with the bad crowd, you know, showing propaganda even just and the comparing himself, david and then saying that we're old davids here and you know, mr. spelled m a q r, you know, i'm going america was a data. this is all stupid. you know, it's not serious. the point about contract. this is that, that you kind of try to be subject to possible, you know, you will take away emotions. but talking about security, but this form was all about and all very short leave, you know, provoke the motions from my, from mr. so that's absolutely true. i mean with george, how can you quote them both the grass and just look at the events that preceded the

decision that would have been on the 24th of february or the 17th i don't boss has to be evacuated. you know, because there are so that the barrage or bartman is so, you know, there you graham force us our mass and all the boy that these was a real army. i mean, look at what happened during these months there still holding on hold, you know, they're, they're still bombarding us. this was a powerful army which will, which will have destroyed the during the, of the metro hours. you know, russian. i mean, you don't be able to spell, but even the russian army will be just, you know, 2 or 3 hours after the struggle. we have to also point out here, or reaffirm that this was a nato fortified ukrainian military. okay. with adviser, with enormous amounts of munitions, obviously financing it intelligence. but george, not to cobra legend in the big city again. if these people and munich were serious,

they would talk about security. and when you talk about security, then that's the resolution. maybe every single party involved would not be happy with the outcome ultimately, but they all could live together and that should be the aim george. yes, exactly. i mean this really is a wall that should never have happened. i mean, we have that year after year in which the russians approaching and low grow have continually warned that we have to resolve this problem this minute after they, you know, apply pressure against your client to implement men's and our patience is not endless. i mean, they said this over and over again and then goes in december, when the futures submitted those drop security, treat it back on the basis negotiations or was it only the basis to end the conflict? jordan, mark my words, we're going to go full circle and seeing what it all happened in between time should have never happened. you're gen want to have to jump in here. we have to go

to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on some really stay with our team. ah, ah, ah, need to come to russian state to never see a 55 with we will fan in the european union, the kremlin. yup. machine. the state on russia today and c r t spoke neck given our video agency, roughly all band on you to a little she did you did it

with me. ah, welcome back to process where all things are considered peter bell. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real news. the let's go back to hearing was kind of a broadening a little bit here. one of the, one of the biggest changes we've seen in the last 12 month is the complete capture of yours by the americans with the atlanta, according to see more harris, the destruction of the north stream pipelines. and then we've also seen and very

important that i don't think it has given enough traction and in western capital. and western media is the reaction of the global. so they're not on board for this western assault, collective western assault on russia. they're not on board, they're not interested in metaphor, just the opposite. rushes appealing to them out, reaching out to them. and trade is increasing. huge changes in trading patterns right now, and that's only going to continue even if the conflict were the end today. so the capture of europe and the reaction of the global. so demon, well just some figures. the export. so russian oil to india, jump for the stem last year. experts basically from hearing everybody from 0. yeah. well now it's a substantial amal crush. sell the same story. with china, so these conflicts have changed the economics so you have to look right.

but i think the capture or like i'm sure you're by the states that you have them, not so much you cannot make less ward, you just want the evil. this contrast is former chairman was issued or you know, the german diplomat, he said, and they need to go to speak to madison before we only need a quote to stop russian troops. i don't you now get unit and the main mistake that we made during the wind. yes. and the thousands we underestimated russia's burial ambitions. so basically, these man, i mean, he was responsible. that was responsive. oak. mark my watch wasn't the means to be much. he was responsible for the dialogue between kia and the rebel republics. he did a wonderful job, not a single meeting, not a single phone call to place. and all this man has been trading the munich security conference, and now he's given the whys. and mercury is in, on the re retreat,

you know, she, she needs that she actually was alliance in 1015. they didn't want a real piece. they wanted to get the person who was she is troops, software defeat basically defeats us. so the problem with europe is that it is losing economically, i'm in the russian brain. i make and human sacrifices. europe is the big rules or you can normal. and this is not me saying that this is mona, towards it all. the french at last gave a very, you know, she got wrote and also said that there were 2 major surprises during the 1st, almost everyone expect the russian army to defeat the ukrainian army. quickly underestimate them are all american investment and the british. and in that you agree on how much they,

they had already. we agree before to 1003 to 2. and the 2nd surprise was the fact that you want me to sustain the ball. sanctions did not destroy russia mon stogie. that was the 2nd major surprise band and the big lose the euro because that the price is jump. i mean, the european industry is becoming irrelevant because they pay so much for, for the production of their products. so basically it's a huge increase. there is a huge increase in american negatives. i mean, look after the world war 2, the united states were ready to limit their ambitions to preserve western europe from started to preserve south korea from north korea from a devastating artillery strike. now the stage is basically that we don't care by our expensive gas stay with our russian gas, destroy your economy, you know,

make a black hole out of russia. don't care. the same story with, with a far east, you know, fight chart. we don't care about japan was by china, south korea, if you know, george, how do you explain that? i mean it, then it is ideological. and again, you and i talk on a regular basis about a lead capture because i can't understand the logic, at least in a formal sense, is that it's all about ukraine sovereignty. when europe, over the last year is erased its own economic sovereignty almost completely. george . this is very interesting, it is a demon said, a complete, illogical capture because there was once a, not that long ago a distinctively european outlook on international affairs, on a variety of issues. but in most particular, in relation to the soviet union, during the cold war, the europeans,

different from the united states. yes. on members of nato. but they said it doesn't make sense to us. and it's a national interest to pursue an aggressive policy toward the soviet union. we, as you know, germany said it doesn't, you know, it damages our relations with the east and france again, you know, we need to a specific european foreign policy. all that is done and it's a completely, it's just a quoting issue to think russian era, ambition, walking barrel ambition. i mean the george soros was talking about the other. they also at the munich security conference. oh, we must destroy the russian empire. what empire, what, what is he talking about? but now this is the, again, they get this from the united states. oh, russia. what has an empire? there is no russian empire. we know exactly the origins of this world. hodges, of this war was nato expansion. and particularly,

attempt to incorporate the ukraine into nature. and russia said that this is, you know, that this affect our security adverse that we have to address this issue. but it was in absolute nonsense. and then you think, where is the european on the west european getting to the state. this is our partner. we share a continent with them. it makes sense for us to have good trading economic relations with a continent. and as we speak right now, there's been a muted reaction by ger, the german government, to the destruction of the north stream pipeline, which was very important for its economy. and you just have to look who benefits then, you know, who did it. and i strongly urge everyone to go to subs that can read sy hirsch's article, which apparently is just a taste or a lot more apparently is going to come in, you know, your missed your, your mr. ideology on cross stock. and we're always happy when you're here, but you know, yeah,

i think you're absolutely right because of going back to the global. so it is kind of received in an ideological way and then rejecting it from the west. they're not interested in the west postmodernism. they're not interested in their home a values. as a matter of fact, if we look at the history of the cold war, a lot of former colonies of the west, they actually were attracted to russia because they saw rushes and anti imperialist force. they weren't particularly interested in the soviet union's communism and then really didn't matter. now it actually is a hand in the glove. it is a concert rush is a conservative country. most of these countries these post colonial countries are very conservative as well. and it's a very, very good relationship, and they still see the west as a colonial attempting to be maintained. it's colonial mastery over the rest of the world. so i mean the, this is one of the biggest changes we've had in the last few years that we used to talk about realignment. well, it's actually happening in real time demon. oh,

in russia part of the narrative, if you listen to the people right to us, they say that maybe it's our disadvantage that were white or where you were appeals the west street south but such that if we were black or. ready you were orient, though, that makes things easier to step by. they can do it. but now if you're right that it's the other way around it because you're white, you shouldn't have to think of it, but you won't do it. it's actually a hearing. i can only say, you know, to say this movie contest. you know, when i heard the lead to a and say very, very or so think about russia. i remember how he's doing. he became independent in 1091 how he story became independent with our short wire. and i remember the sentiment in society. we were all very happy for that. i mean,

yelton was the 1st foreign leader to recognize the independence. both congress, the idea was let bygones be bygones will start to start and now we want to see our success. but of course, we didn't want to have them as any. and the, basically, when the nato saddle, russia grow, could reach the deal, you know, rush at that point. no, you bridge the deal, because when the soviet union collapsed, the deal was that these congress will not be course, that they will not be here. maybe they will not be great friends, but they won't be, no brain was extremely or start, especially in the last 8 years. and there are countries of the global. so when they look at it, when they, when they see how russian pro private property is b. c, the west. how are she's treated as a state co, russian athletes are subject that says just that even hitler did not do the black

athletes during a well. i mean, i think the lesson is learned is that, you know, the west wants to have control of all, you know, all telecommunications, all financing and banking and all that. and then that the, the, the countries that go along with it, like russia did, after the end of the cold war, you can suddenly become a really big victim of it. and i think that's a lot of country see that if you use your system against the russian, you can use it against us. ga not. yeah, that's right. and i think that just following up on the, it was precisely that was promised to the soviet union to go by jo in 1991. you don't have to worry about anything because when you know, once we kind of embrace them and particularly when we have a united germany within a so it will have, you won't have any problems because they will be on the late those control. and so you won't, they won't be out there. so if i everything that has happened in recent years,

kind of confirms stollins cuz both, hey, the moment they get independence, they got to join an alliance against us. they got to be waging a war against us. i mean, that's kind of what he was saying. it is walter and conferences as confirmed is doc for both. and in the, in the long, long term here who was the one that made that great mistake. it was got a bunch of no other soviet leader would even contemplate doing something like that . and he believed him. and that is the original sin of all of this is believing these people that they had benign intentions. ok me. i'm not worried about the germans. i'm worried about nato when that was a gentleman. we had to a too big of a topic to discuss here, but we didn't get to the, the outer layers here. i want to think, my guess in moscow and in budapest when i think our viewers are watching us,

you know, our dc and next time remember, ah, with premiums they were planning to hold these positions for a long, long time. well, this particular sector, it fell in less than a week to revolve from the gone by the front lines of russian forces rate through ukrainian defenses in i'm around with the city of part 9 years since the bloodiest day of hughes. my don protests are to take the closer look at what has become of this controversial turning point with nato often to let as