better place as he has either will repulsion, certainly better than is doing now. ah ah hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . mister barton goes to cab. the u. s. president's unannounced trip can be interpreted in a number of ways, is one of them in active desperation to keep washington's coalition of the willing together just before the anticipated russian offensive, we will soon find out from

sucking ukraine, i'm joined by my guest, garland nixon in washington, he's a political analyst in new york, we have let him goldstein, he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university and in south and we cross a michael dash he is the package j. d, professor of international relations at the university of notre dame or a gentleman cross hoc rolls in effect, that means you can jump any time he want. and i always appreciate vladimir, let me go to you. breaking news here am a short time ago vladimir putin addressing the nation, announced that russia would be suspending negotiations for the start to treaty, which i think in total. now that is the end of arms control that, that the, the soviet union slash russia had with the west. arms control essentially is dead. i seriously doubt, negotiations. i'll return before the 2026 expiration date. this is a major decoupling that he coupling has done. would you say? so vladimir?

yes. i think russia kept on sending the same message to united states and the nature that dawned escalate by it frozen the dead ears. serrato go through one action of the action and they soon or later have to realize it in our indeed, you know, all this talk about nuclear war is and not just all eat can result, you know, the other day. and by the next year, it was music in key of odds and ends. he said, if china and to the fray, it means a 3rd world war. so in other words, it is just like it's important escalation and fusion sends a message, a very clear message, boston that mr. origins and the foreign audience that these, this years and we'll do the best we can to, to protect our conte, which includes, you know, stop talking to the people who do not listen to us. exactly. michael and south. and if i go to you now, i me going back to this be coupling issue here. we have

a battle of narratives, of putin is already given his address shortly. joe biden, in more so i will give his address. i suppose it'll be pretty much a repetition of what he said last time. he was there very up outside of possible gaps which we can always expect there. but, but michael, that me, this really is a battle of narratives. it says a decoupling the that the red lines have been drawn here and russia continues to show that it will react to what to west is doing. and it has to do it out of self interest obviously. but it's very serious and it's getting pretty scary. i would say, michael, yeah, no, i agree. although i think the pulling out of the start process is more symbolic than real in terms of its impact. i think the bigger thing that may be happening, in fact, is the decision of the chinese to be more supportive of the

eye russians on in this war. so the, the real decoupling is i, you know, if china becomes a, you know, throws it slide and even more fully with the russians that will harden the battle lines in a big way to other things. one is the question, of course, of really how solid the atlantic community front is on maintaining the war. i think that's an open question at the elephant in the room though, is the a global south which has not bought into the western narrative in terms of who's at fault and how this thing needs to be brought to an end. so there it, there are a lot of deep divisions um and they seem to be hard neg career ab. i absolutely agree with the garland that i think that exists the exact reason why biden went to

care of her, his very short visit. i mean, it was kind of across between a fundraising campaign and cheerleading. i'll keep trying to keep his coalition together, which is, is, is fraying at the, at this, at the, at the end because the, the cost of this conflict to europe see europe is the one that's being crushed the most are obviously outside of the, of ukraine. here, and biden has to keep his flock in order. and so to go and it was a public relations stand to, they cleared it with the russians in advance. but i mean, this is biden's war and it's, he's thrown everything into it. that's what makes it so dangerous because these neil consider directing him. they're uncompromising, and at the same time, russia's not going to compromise its security. this is where we are. garland. yeah, i think it's also a reminder to everyone that of the current conflict in the current conflict that nato is now really a bilateral group. that is stuff the united states and the most extreme elements in

the, in europe, which would be, you know, poll in the baltic states. i think that the, again, we say the elephant in the room, the blue whale and the phone booth shall we say, is the north stream attacks by the, basically nato as a whole on germany. so i think a biden has, you know, again, bypass and ignore germany. he can't talk about germany much now. other, there are major problems and they're concerned as to how that's going to iron out in the long run. but i think the western europe that, you know, we can see some cracks in western europe. we can see some very significant an anti war rallies happening in unit. so i think biden's concerned and he's working with those who are of light, mind, poland, which seemed to be willing to, you know, readily sacrifice the lives and livelihoods of their, of, of, of their, of their citizens for the neocon project. yeah it, they, i'm glad you brought up north stream because latimer, there's it, there's all this talk, you know,

it's like on anti war dot com in responsible state craft about how negotiations could start. i don't know where these people are, where their head is blowing up the north stream pipelines here. i mean, how do you negotiate with people like that? i just, i have no idea vladimir. yeah, i think a mention of near corn is very important. so i think are, you know, there is another term it would describes i, america foreign policy is like woke a imperialist. so it's kind of an unhealthy kind of combination of this neil liberals with their walking ano coins with a imperialism. and this is a very powerful group. however, you know, i read in just an essay, talking about the psy mirage article about northwest a better do they. the fact that he got this information tells us that there is a split within united united states establishment. somebody in washington is not happy about this what, what walk empire, and it's over each. so i think it's

a very important kind of dimension which were mentioned not only within the nato, but even without the united states establishment. because people are smart people and bender gone and she a broken understand that this is in our, this is not in american interest. this is in the interest of this very strange group around stay stay department in biden, you know, hot, cold as of supporters. and it has to be stopped. but i, there are forces, i'm sure, normal or regular people who sort of in our united states will still believe that a business of america is business. and not all. so i think, and as of the one who eventually will, will come to power and russia will negotiate with them. yeah, i think my colleague has made a couple of very important points by a 1st. the i know the pro war party is broader than just the old, neo conservatives. i don't think i called on the, i, you know,

the other part of it woke imperialists. i think i'd call them liberal imperialists . these are people who are deeply committed to the liberal world order yet. um and, you know, i, i, i think there's a lot of, you know, sort of the liberal world order that i personally am attracted to. but i think the problem here is that, you know, it creates a series of big blind spots on that really, in my view, explain how we've gotten into this mass. you know, yesterday i jake sullivan, had sat at one point. i think it reflecting on the cause of the war that nato expansion had nothing to do with nato's. a defensive alliance made up of democracies both of which are true. but, you know, i mean, from the perspective of the other side, you could see how that would also be irrelevant. and so i think when the history of

this mass is written in much the same way that the history of the vietnam war was written, years ago, our liberal blindness is going to be a big factor in how we ended up in the soup here. well, garland and talking about the liberal world order, i mean, one of the things that's really come about. and since the advent of this conflict is the intense russo phobia, i mean, you know, you have in the pages of foreign affairs and you basically have to break up russia . we have to break it up. i mean, this is where they're coming from. this is where it's all about and what makes this so pathetic is, has nothing to do with ukraine even though ukrainians are being slaughtered. ok for a war that nato wanted. the history books will have to explain to me why the ukrainians went along with this in the 1st place. garland. so i'll push back, i oppose the concept of the liberal world order for a couple reasons. not the,

not the least of which being it's a feat is equivalent lee, the idea of me walking up, saying on here to help you in, in hitting you over the head with a rock and stealing your wallet. that liberal world order is number one, number 2, it also implies a hierarchical cultural order in the world, and implies that the liberal order, the liberal way of seeing the world is somehow superior and that other people, traditional cultures, maybe the africans, the middle eastern, melissa costio, cultures, et cetera, that they don't have a right to their culture and that they would be better off if they accepted ours. and i think all of those countries are looking at what is happening in the u. s. culture. we shock and horror saying, we don't want any parts of that, whether we agree or not. i believe that all cultures that rather than a hierarchical culture, that the world should be more like a mosaic where all cultures is, are viewed as part of a, of a, of a mood 0 is mosaic piece of art, which all of them darling wasn't, wasn't that traditional liberalism, that that's what it was. okay. yeah,

right. but i think it's, you know, i am, i am, i died in the world conservative. i don't want to become a liberal up. okay. and i don't want to be forced to become a liberal. ok. they and this is something that they believe they have to remake the world in their own image, then the image of victoria new and that's a scary thought. all right, by a gentleman, i'm gonna jump in. i gotta go, i gotta go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on your current state with oh ah ah, there is no us strategic national security interest in you created all i would say there is no interest us interest in ukraine, where is that very vital interest of russia federation that ukraine be restored to

a neutral buffer state, separated from a from nato countries. ah ah, lisa canter. russians state little never. i've side as i'm phoning, northland scheme diva with within the 55 when. okay, so mine is group, i'm speaking with, we will van in the european union, the kremlin. yup. machine. the state on russia today and the sport that came in our video agency, roughly all band on youtube with

me. ah ah oh, a ah with ah,

welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter bell to remind you were discussing ukraine. ah okay, let's go back to michael and south and then the 1st part of the program in, in a direction. i didn't really expect that i really like it because i like to talk about the, the, the social and philosophical angles of all of this. here, you know, michael, is that this is one of the reasons why the, the, the liberal west, the leaks in the west. they hate russia because rush is a very conservative place. and that's something that they, they, they, they can't tolerate. and they don't like to have any kind of alternative model. now you don't have to be a conservative in to appreciate russia, but mean this is something was some of the themes here. what a lot of people don't understand until netflix left the mark and a lot of people would watch netflix and kind of an oddity, you know, like wow, that's what they do in the west. we don't want that here. okay. but you know that

that's in there's now there is a growing rejection of this woke a stud culture, that is an i agree with vladimir, that's really infiltrated foreign policy. your thoughts, michael? well, i think the fact that a lot of americans believe that i rashanda vladimir putin, i was deeply supportive of donald trump, a quite polarized. yeah, but there isn't, but there's that, and there's not, there's no evidence of that, but nonetheless, know how, right but, but nonetheless, a lot of people believe that. um, and so what it has done is, you know, make, this is made a domestic ideological fight in the united states an international lives. and of course, i'm old enough to remember the cold war in a when the soviet union was regarded as you know, in the vanguard of the left. and now the irony is, you know, for lot of americans, it's a lot of americans on the left, especially. it's now

a force of reaction from the right. so my head is spinning. the ames, hey, automatically during my lifetime. yeah. yeah. like think the washington post never had anything bad to say about the soviet union has nothing good to say about russia today is e m. i had a spinning to latimer, you know, i guess we're all children of the cold war here. and i knew a lot of great soviet specialists, really, really good historians. they adored russia. that's why they studied the soviet union. they hated communism, but they adored russia and its culture and respected it here. that is another major change here and you coming from a letters yourself. that must be astounding for you teaching bill skiwski. go ahead . vladimir. you know, it's the whole thing is very, very crazy. your oldest or former from old gray, gray professors. first of all, it took russia seriously. they, they to good with a spread. it was

a different sort of, you know, get a little fish there. when they studied, they admired may be certain things would, would them all, but it was like a unique continent. would you go and start and study and explore? you know, i go to australia and study their animals which don't exist anymore. however, with the collapse of the soviet union, they made a very, if you want your conclusion that it doesn't matter. you know, let's forget about the say that who cares about a unique, unique flora and fauna. let's, let's forget about it. and then being bombarded again again, and i say is that to you, she is currently the only thing they can do is aggression. the only thing they can do is violence. so let's split them and now and to this mix is like total loonies and paranoid, many eggs and borland and bolted, who actually support this idea. so basically rather than sort of a taking things seriously, we leave in the serious role we're facing. she is issues. oh, a think it becomes like, know when all the truth as it does meta and,

and where are harvested now what, what, what was all, you know, vladimir, i had took the occasion a couple weeks ago to re read alexander sold geneva since famous commencement address. i yes, i which i, i didn't really understand at the time where he was coming from, but from the context of 2023, it makes clear, you know, the deep fault wines and between traditional russia, which had come to represent at that point even well before the collapse of the soviet union and the, the liberal, big, l liberal, west. and i wish i'd been smarter. i think i would be less confused by that. well, michael just came up for a came up with a great topic for a future edition of crossfire because that commencement speech is absolutely

fascinating. and remember, michael, after he made the speech the liberal west, turned their back on him. remember that? okay. you know, as i say he was, can't, they didn't use the term, but they cancel them after that speech. let me go to garland right now, moving on, garland, you know, the, the, what has happened here, the west is turned this into an existential struggle, which it doesn't, didn't have to be for the west for russia. yes. because of security reasons. and that's what it's all about. nobody in the west wants to talk about security. they want to talk about victory. if you continue to look at the russians, have to say, we need to be able to live securely in europe. and you're not allowing that to happen. that's why this conflict and ukraine happened. they still do not want to talk about it that way. it's existential. but they, but that is a craven choice and it's a self fulfilling prophecy. yeah. now it is turning into it because you made it that way. garland. well, it's existential for their narrative. and since the neocons of the neo liberal, ve cloud live in the narrative, it seems ex, essential to them their narrative to die. if to die is tantamount to them to them

to actually die kind of like when a person in the movie, the matrix dies in the matrix. they die in real life. that's the way they feel about their narrative being threatened. let me add this to, i think, and this is important statement i wanted to make. when we talk about conservatism, there's a conservatism, a more to a conservatism that is not tied to left in right, per se, in that's tied to tradition and stability. i traveled extensively in south america, unabashed socialist marxist linen is, et cetera. but when it comes to conservatism, from a perspective of how they live on a day to day basis, they're much more aligned with, say, a russia than they are with the united states. why? because they are very much into their tradition, the indigenous people, etc. and they're very much, i believe in stability. so to say the liberals who the su tradition and who are create chaos and instability, you know,

the so you know that they're not there. first of all, i think they're redefining left as cultural issues as opposed to traditional left, which sees viewing the world through the context of the working class. so i think there's a, so there is a difference in definitions of what we mean by conservative values of or addition and stability. i can just savannah and our viewers all nodding their head in agreeing with you. because i do, and i think the, our, our, our panel does who, michael, you're the one that brought up the global south, which i called the global majority. um, you know, during, during the cold war, they did look to the soviet union as a friend, as an ally because it was anti west anti imperialist. but they still do now men in and now they, they look towards this of you, not because of its communism because they were against the oppression of the west. but now we have in the end of the cold war here. now we have the global south again looking to, to a, to russia in the, in the way the garland just explained to us traditional values. michael instability

ability is board. good sir. yeah, i guess i think it's a, it's a combination of things. certainly, as garland says, i'm, you know, as joseph sham, peter famously said about capitalism. it's a process of creative destruction. i think political liberalism also is a process of creative destruction. and what gets destroyed are often traditional values. and most people are uncomfortable with the destruction of traditional value. so to the extent that russia seems like a, a proponent of a different way of political and social ordering, it's attractive, i think also though it's balance of bow power politics. if you think that the united states in the unipolar moment is, it needs to be counterbalanced. russia and china are probably 2 of the

logical countries that you're going to look to for that counterbalancing. so strikes me as being over determine power and culture. it will let me, let's, let's address that here because, um, the ukraine seems to be the epicenter of a, of a new cold war. and this is something, again, the neocons around joe biden seemed to be prepared for it. he, they've been able to cow and capture europe to the point where europe has lost its sovereignty. though they're fighting in ukraine for ukraine sovereignty, i find that really odd. oh, by the way, that the american southern border is left unguarded. i mean, there's some very peculiar value slotting around here. black vladimir, go ahead. there is unbelievable hypocrisy which way, which, which will with this, you know, i like the concept. orig, garland is. it uses miss a united states, which is, say, they tolerate mosaic in canada. you know,

united states is an english speaking country, and that's fine if you can. i didn't want to have a french and english and have their own kind of, you know, or asian in college and go back fine. what's happened in ukraine out of the blue rather than having these mosaic. they have irrational speaking, the east of a culture of the pro ration east. they have it, you know, culture to pro polish, a pro western a west. and i'm relieved in iran from gifts. so this is shouldn't a great moral as continue to exist on the, on the principle mosaic, iowa, the west and 8th or united states decided to use this moment to impose this west ukrainian values. people are very, very much agricultural culture. upon very industrialized bro, russian, east, this is absolutely hypocrisy. they don't do it in belgium, insisted in some particular language. they don't do it in canada. but ukraine was a very in distant important born of contention. where they agreed to throw all the

values of a respectful other cultures for minorities. just for the sake of driving this, this kind of civility strange message home, keep germany down, keep russia out and you know, a booted grain as a wedge between russia and euro. right? and this is the unity which is there. ok, michael, we've got 40 seconds. finish it out for us. well, i think the tragedy of the ukraine war is ultimately going to be i that many in the west thought that they were doing the lord's work. but as we know, the road to hell is often paved with good intentions, and we're certainly seeing the road to hell in ukraine today. yeah, this is i've often pointed out on this program, the more the west helps ukraine, the more ukrainians die in the smaller the country comes. that that's a great ally to have its really truly remarkable. and i have no idea what future

historians will make of it. that's all the time we have gentlemen. i want to thank my guests in washington, new york, and in south bend. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz. see you next time. remember cross titles. ah ah, what happens with digital dig with actual physical sport? something like digital? yeah, there's yes. because on is preparing to host the 1st ever gains of the future. a cyber context with a physical dimension. one of the innovators, eager to study at all, is on the verge of redefining sports and gaming. he tells us what's behind this synergy, and if it's the future, ah

ah, with welcome to wells apart. more schoolers hello pointed out that having the united

states as a security backer house to create a potent moral hazard for its allies, often become geopolitically inflated and more resistance to compromise this peace proposal. but when it comes to the war in ukraine, is washington even interested in peace? well, to discuss that, i'm now joined by david pine, a former us army combat arms officer and military affairs commentator. mr. pine is great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you so much for me on your show. now, i know that in addition to your military career and analysis, you are also an avid historian. you read a lot of history books and that passion of yours began at the tender age of 11, if i'm not mistaken. and the conclusion that you derive from all of that is the most wars that the united states has bought or has supported made it less secure. do you think the war in ukraine is going to be the exception?

no, no, not at all. in fact, it may be one of the greatest examples of making us less secure. i mean, us national security interests, obviously, 1st and foremost, to preserve the great power peace with russia and china. and the way to do that for us is through pursuing a diplomatic and negotiate compromise agreements much as much as russia is proposed . i might, i might know and, and not to pursue these f 2 ever escalating proxy wars, such as the beta restoration is currently pursuing against russian ukraine, national security interest, just like beauty in the eyes of the beholders. and i've heard many russian analysts suggest that for the americans, the war ukraine is a very we deal. you mentioned the proxy war and it's actually a fairly well developed military doctrine that sees a war on the foreign.