[000:00:00;00] ah, long mo, when i want shown thing wrong, when i just don't hold any new world yet to shape out disdain becomes the advocate and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah

ah hello and welcome to cross hawk where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . mr. barton goes to care the us presidents, unannounced trip can be interpreted in a number of ways. is one of them in active desperation to keep washington's coalition of the willing together just before the anticipated russian offensive, we will soon find out fresh sucking ukraine. i'm joined by my guest, carlin nixon in washington. he's a political analyst in new york. we have let him goldstein, he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university and in south and we cross a michael dash he is the packee j. d professor of international relations at the university of notre dame. all right, gentlemen, cross sac rose in effect, that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate vladimir, let me go to you. breaking news here am

a short time ago vladimir putin addressing the nation, announced that russia would be suspending negotiations for the start to treaty, which i think in total. now that is the end of arms control that of the, the soviet union slash russia had with the west. arms control essentially is dead. i seriously doubt, negotiations. i'll return before the 2026 expiration date. this is a major decoupling that he coupling is done. would you say? so vladimir? yes, i think russia kept on sending the same message, the united states, and the nature that dawned escalade by a frozen dead, the ears saw russia go through one the action of the action in and they soon or later have to realize it in our indeed you know all this talk about nuclear war is and not just store eat can result, you know, the other day. and by the next year it was really in key of odds and ends. he said,

if china and to the fray, it means a 3rd world war. so in other words, this is like a important escalation and fusion sends a message, a very clear message boss. with that mr. origins and the foreign audience that these, this years and we'll do the best we can do to protect our conte, which includes you know, stop talking to the people who do not listen to us. exactly. michael and south. and if i go to you now, i me going back to this decoupling issue here, we have a battle of narratives, of putin is already given his address shortly. joe biden, in more so i will give his address. i suppose it will be pretty much a repetition of what he said last time. he was there very up outside of possible gas, which we can always expect here. but michael, that me, this really is a battle of narratives. it says a decoupling on the that the red lines have been drawn here and russia continues

to show that it will react to what to west is doing. and it has to do it out of self interest, obviously. but it's very serious and it's getting pretty scary. i would say, michael. yeah, no, i agree. although i think the pulling out of the start process is more symbolic than real in terms of its impact. i think the bigger thing that may be happening, in fact, is the decision of the chinese to be more supportive of the russians on in this war. so there is the real decoupling. ah, is it, you know, if china becomes a, you know, throws it's lottie and even more fully with the russians that will harden the battle lines in a big way to other things. one is the question, of course, of really how solid the atlantic community front is on maintaining the

war. i think that's an open question at the elephant in the room though is the global south, which has not bought into the western narrative in terms of who's at fault and how this thing needs to be brought to an end. so there are, there are a lot of deep divisions um and they seem to be hard neg, for, i absolutely agree with the garland that i think that exists the exact reason why biden went to care of her, his very short visit. i mean, it was kind of across between a fundraising campaign and cheerleading. i'll keep trying to keep his coalition together, which is, is, is fraying at a, at this, at the, at the end because the, the cost of this conflict to europe see europe is the one that's being crushed the most. they're obviously outside of the of ukraine here, and biden has to keep his flock in order. and so to go and it was a public relations stand to,

they cleared it with the russians in advance. but i mean, this is biden's war and it's he thrown everything into it. that's what makes it so dangerous because these neil consider directing him there, uncompromising. and at the same time rush is not going to compromise its security. this is where we are. garland. yeah, i think it's also a reminder to everyone that of the current conflict and in the current conflict that nato is now really a bilateral group that is, of the united states and the most extreme elements in the, in europe, which would be, you know, poll in the baltic states, i think that the, again, we say the elephant in the room, the blue whale and the phone booth shall we say, is the north stream attacks by the, basically nato as a whole on germany. so i think and biden has, you know, again, bypass and ignore germany. he can't talk about germany much. now there are major

problems and they're concerned as to how that's going to iron out in the long run. but i think the western europe that, you know, we can see some cracked in western europe. we can see some very significant an anti war rallies happening in munich. so i think biden's concerned and he's working with those who are of light, mind, poland, which seemed to be willing to, you know, readily sacrifice the lives and livelihoods of their, of their, of their citizens. for the neo con project. yeah, they, i'm glad you brought up north stream because a lot of me, or there's a, there's all this talk, you know, it's like on anti war dot com in responsible state craft about how negotiations could start. i don't know where these people are, where their head is blowing up the north stream pipelines here. i mean, how do you negotiate with people like that? i did, i have no idea vladimir. yeah, i think a mentioned near corn is very important. so i think are, you know, there is another term who describes, ah, america of foreign policy is like, woke

a imperialist. so it's a healthy kind of combination. oh, there's neo liberals, while they're walking ano guns with a imperialism. and this is a very powerful group. however, you know, i read an interest in an essay talking about the cy mirage article, about not northwest a better do they. the fact that he got this information tells us that there is a split within united united states establishment. somebody in washington is not happy about this. what, what walk via and it's over each. so i think it's a very important kind of dimension which were mentioned not only within the nato, but even without united states establishment because people are smart people and, and are going in and shay, they probably understand that this is, you know, this is not in the in american interest, this is in the interest of this very strange group around stay stay department in biden, you know, hot, cold as supporters and it has to be stopped. but there are forces, i'm sure,

normal or regular people who sort of, you know, united states would still believe that the business of america is business and not all. so i think that's less of the one who eventually will, will come to power and russia will negotiate them. i think my colleague has made a couple of very important points by 1st the, i know the pro war party is broader than just the old, neo conservatives. i don't think i'd call on the i, you know, the other part of it woke imperialists. i think i'd call them liberal imperialists . these are people who are deeply committed to the liberal world order. yeah. um and, you know, i, i, i think there's a lot of, you know, sort of the liberal world order that i personally am attracted to. but i think the problem here is that i, you know, it creates

a series of big blind spots. i that really in my view, explain how we've gotten into this mass. you know, yesterday, and jake sullivan had sat at one point. i think i'm reflecting on the cause of the war that nato expansion had nothing to do with nato's. a defensive alliance made up of democracies, both of which are true, but, you know, i mean, from the perspective of the other side, you could see how that would also be irrelevant. and so i think when the history of this mass is written in much the same way that the history of the vietnam war was written, years ago, our liberal blindness is gonna be a big factor in how we ended up in the soup here. well, garland ain't talking about the liberal world order. i mean, one of the things that's really come about since the advent of this conflict is the

intense russo phobia. i mean, you know, you have in the pages of foreign affairs, you basically have to break up russia. we have to break it up. i mean, this is where they're coming from. this is where it's all about. and what would make this so pathetic is has nothing to do with ukraine even though the ukrainians are being slaughtered. okay, for a war that nato wanted, the history books will have to explain to me why the ukrainians went along with this in the 1st place. garland, so i'll push back i, i oppose the concept of the liberal, a world order for a couple of reasons, not the, not the least of which being it's a feat is equivalent lee. the idea of me walking up, saying, i'm here to help you in hitting you over the head with a rock and stealing your wallet. that liberal world order is number one. number 2, it also implies a hierarchical cultural order in the world that implies that the liberal order, the liberal way of seeing the world is somehow superior and that other people, traditional cultures, maybe the africans, the middle eastern, muslim cut cultures, et cetera, that they don't have

a right to their culture and that they would be better off if they accepted ours. and i think all of those countries are looking at what is happening in the u. s. culture with shocking horror saying we don't want any parts of that. whether we agree or not, i believe that all cultures that rather than a hierarchical culture, that the world should be more like a mosaic where all cultures is, are viewed as part of a, of a, of, you know, a mood 0 is mosaic piece of art, which all of them charlie wasn't, wasn't that traditional liberalism, that that's what was okay. yeah, right. but i think i, because it's, you know, i am, i am a died in the world conservative. i don't want to become a liberal up. okay. and i don't want to be forced to become a liberal. ok they. and this is something that they believe they have to remake the world in their own image. then the image of victoria new and that's a scary thought. or i finally got a gentleman. i got a job in, i gotta go, i gotta go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on your current state with archie.

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with ah, welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered on peter labelle to remind you were discussing you crate. okay, let's go back to michael and south and then the 1st part of the program in, in, in a direction. i didn't really expect that i really like it because i like to talk

about the, the, the social and philosophical angles of all of this. here, you know, michael, is that this is one of the reasons why the, the, the liberal west, the leaks in the west. they hate russia because rush is a very conservative place. and that's something that they, they, they can't tolerate. and they don't like to have any kind of alternative model. now you don't have to be a conservative in to appreciate russia. but mean this is something like some of the themes here. what a lot of people don't understand until netflix left the market. a lot of people would watch netflix and kind of in an oddity, you know, like, wow, that's what they do in the west. we don't want that here. okay. but you know that that's in there is that now there is a growing rejection of this woke. it's doug culture, that is, and i agree with vladimir, that's really infiltrated foreign policy. your thoughts, michael? well, i think the fact that a lot of americans believe that i rashanda vladimir putin. i was deeply supportive of donald trump, a quite polarized. yeah, but there isn't. but there's that, and there's not, there's no evidence of that,

but nonetheless, know how, right but, but nonetheless, a lot of people believe that. um, and so what it has done is, you know, make, this is made a domestic ideological fight in the united states and international lives. and of course, i'm old enough to remember the cold war. and, you know, when the soviet union was regarded as, you know, in the vanguard of the left. and now the irony is, i, you know, for lot of americans, it's a lot of americans on the left, especially. it's now a force of reaction from the right. so my head is spinning. it's the ames hey romantically during my life? yeah. yeah. like think the washington post never had anything bad to say about the soviet union has nothing good to say about russia today is e m. i had a spinning to light a mirror, you know, i guess we're all children of the cold war here. and i knew

a lot of great soviet specialists, really, really good historians. they adored russia. that's why they studied the soviet union. they hated communism, but they adored russia and its culture and respected it here. that is another major change here and you coming from a letters yourself. that must be astounding for you teaching bill skiwski. go ahead . vladimir. yeah, it's the whole thing is very, very crazy. all this, our former former grade professor, 1st of all, and he took russia, she usually they, they to good with a spec. it was a different sort of, you know, get a little fish. they, when they are they side, eat they admired may be sort of thinks would, would them all, but it was like a unique continent. would you go and start and study and explore? you know, i go to australia and study their animals which don't exist anymore. however, with the collapse of the soviet union, they made a very, if your conclusion that it doesn't matter. you know,

let's forget about the say that who cares about the unique, unique flora and fauna. let's, let's forget about it. and then being bombarded again and again i say that we will see is kenzie, the only thing they can do is aggression. the only thing they can do is violence. so let's split them. and now until this meeks is like total loonies and paranoid, many eggs and borland, and boulders who actually support this idea. so basically, rather than sort of a taking things easily will leave in the serious role. we're facing a serious issues or the think it becomes like know when all the truth as, as it does matter and, and where are harvested now what, what, what was so, you know, vladimir, i had took the occasion a couple of weeks ago to reread. alexander soldier and eat since famous commencement address i. yes, i which i, i didn't really understand at the time where he was coming from. but from the

context of 2023, it makes clear, you know, the deep fault winds up between traditional russia, which had come to represent, at that point even well before the collapse of the soviet union. and the, the liberal, big l liberal west. and i wish i'd been smarter. i think i would be less confused by. yeah, well michael just came up for a came up with a great topic for a future edition of crossfire because that commencement the speech is absolutely fascinating. and remember, michael, after he made the speech the liberal west, turned their back on him. remember that? okay. you know, as i say he was, can't, they didn't use the term, but they cancel them after that speech. let me go to garland right now. moving on, garland, you know, the, the, what has happened here, the west is turn this into an existential struggle, which it doesn't, didn't have to be for the west for russia. yes. because of security reasons. and

that's what it's all about. nobody in the west wants to talk about security. they want to talk about victory. if you continue to look with the russians, have to say, we need to be able to live securely in europe. and you're not allowing that to happen. that's why this conflict and ukraine happened. they still do not want to talk about it that way. it's existential. but they, but that is a craven choice and it's a self fulfilling prophecy. yeah. now it is turning into it because you made it that way. garland was existential for their narrative. and since the neocons of the neo liberal p cloud live in the narrative, it seems existential to them. their narrative to die. if a to die is to attend to amount to them to them, to actually die kind of like when a person in the movie, the matrix dies in the matrix. they die in real life. that's the way they feel about their narrative being threatened. let me add this to, i think, and this is important statement i wanted to make. when we talk about conservatism, there's a conservatism, a more, a conservatism that is not tied to left in right, per se,

and that's tied to tradition and stability. i traveled extensively in south america, unabashed, socialist, marxist, linen, et cetera. but when it comes to conservatism, from a perspective of how they live on a day to day basis, they're much more aligned with, say, a russia than they are with the united states. why? because they are very much into their tradition in the indigenous people, etc. and they're very much believe in stability. so to say the liberals who the su tradition and who are create chaos and instability, you know, the so you know that they're not there. first of all, i think they're redefining left as cultural issues as opposed your traditional left, which sees viewing the world through the context of the working class. so i think there's a, so there is a difference in definitions of what we mean by conservative values of or addition and stability. i can just savannah, our viewers,

all nodding their head in agreeing with you because i do, and i think the, our, our, our panel that to michael, you're the one that brought up the global south, which i called the global majority. um, you know, during, during the cold war they, they did look to the soviet union as a friend, as an ally because it was anti west anti imperialist. but they still do now in and now they, they look towards this of you, not because of its communism because they were against the oppression of the west. but now we have the, the end of the cold war here. now we have the global south again looking to, to a, to russia in the, in the way the garland just explained to us traditional values. michael instability ability is worth it. so, yeah, i guess, i think it's a, it's a combination of things. certainly, as garland says, i'm, you know, as joseph sham, peter famously said about capitalism. it's a process of creative destruction. i think political liberalism also is

a process of creative destruction. and what gets destroyed are often traditional values. and most people are uncomfortable with the destruction of traditional value. so to the extent that russia seems like a, a proponent of a different way of political and social ordering, it's attractive, i think also though it's balance of bow power politics. if you think that in the united states, in the unipolar moment is, needs to be counterbalanced. russia and china are probably 2 of the logical countries that you're going to look to for that counterbalancing. so it strikes me as being over determine power and culture. it, well, let me, let's, let's address that here because, um, the ukraine seems to be the epicenter of a, of a new cold war. and this is something, again,

the neocons around joe biden seemed to be prepared for it. he, they've been able to cow and capture europe to the point where europe has lost its sovereignty. though they're fighting in ukraine for ukraine sovereignty, i find that really odd. oh, by the way that the american southern border is left unguarded. i mean, there's some very peculiar value slotting around here. black vladimir, go ahead. there is unbelievable hypocrisy which way, which, which will we face, you know, i like the concept, orig, garland is it uses mosaic, united states, which is, say they tolerate mosaic in canada. you know, united states is an english speaking country, and that's fine if to canadians want to have a french and english and have their own kind of, you know, or asian and college and go back fine. what's happened in ukraine out of the blue rather than having this mosaic. they have irrational speaking, the east of a culture, the pro ration east. they have it, you know, culture, the proportion

a pro western a west and i'm believe in iran from keeps. so this is, shouldn't be a moralist, continue to exist on the, on the principle mosaic or the west and 8 or 9 to say, decided to use this moment to impose this west ukrainian values. people are very much agricultural, you know, culture upon very industrialized pro, ration east. this is, this is absolutely hip warranty. they don't do it in belgium insisted in some particular language. they don't do it in canada. but ukraine was a very interesting, important born of contention where they agreed to throw all the values of a respect for other cultures for minorities. just for the sake of driving this, this kind of civility strange message home, keep germany down, keep russia out there in a boot. they would be brain as a wedge between russia in europe. and this is the unity which is their. okay, michael, we've got 40 seconds finish it out for us. well,

i think the tragedy of the ukraine war is ultimately going to be that many in the west thought that they were doing the lord's work. but as we know, the road to hell is often paved with good intentions, and we're certainly seeing the road to hell in ukraine today. yeah is i've often pointed out on this program, the more the west helps ukraine, the more ukrainians die in the smaller the country comes. that that's a great ally to have. it's really truly remarkable. and i have no idea what future historians will make of it. that's all the time we have gentlemen. i want to thank my guests in washington, new york, and in south and, and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz. see you next time. remember cross titles.

ah, in the 1950s, the u. s. used former nazis against the soviet union in the 21st century. they engineer dakota, that fish the former soviet republic into our confrontation with moscow will certainly if the united states and the u. k. and the rest of the western world had not engaged in conflict with the ukraine and with the soviet union and a successor of the russian federation. we will not have the horrible situation we have today. i think that if the american stopped, we would be at peace and the role would be a lot better place and the economy, the world function,

certainly better than is doing now. i will never be a victory for a russia weight solution with you, a new modem, but you locate me. ukraine more is a proxy war. this is a war between russia and the united states. muslim are made. it comes to not shooting the 9 carbon dioxide america for sure, and you're not in your gage in conflict with russian for use. american forces are here and defend nato allies. what happens if nato escalates even more than discussion? military operations become a war when you, but they'll set of rules that national and that'll that doesn't is much. i see it that i see your to us. thank you costliest. that's what i'm here with. so i use 3,

you sure you can use stuff to with almost them with home just to finish the sewerage. no. the co with

with ah, corporation has never been named it any 3rd party. but we never allow any 3rd party to dictate to us what to do with the cooperation between china and russia. as we said more than once, is very important in stabilizing the international situation. well, that's the message from china's foreign policy chief and president vladimir putin as they meets in moscow to discuss global issues and strengthening bilateral corporation. also this our, our c visits a temporary refugee camp. and the dentist, republican speaks to those who've been evacuated from the from lines and they told us to write our initials on our hands with the red markers because they were going