ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . mister barton goes to cab. the u. s. president's unannounced trip can be interpreted in a number of ways. is one of them in active desperation to keep washington's coalition of the willing together just before the anticipated russian offensive, we will soon find out from sucking ukraine, i'm joined by my guest garland nixon in washington. he's a political analyst in new york. we have let him here goldstein,

he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university and in south and we cross a michael dash he is the package j. d, professor of international relations at the university of notre dame or a gentleman cross hoc rolls in effect, that means you can jump any time he want. and i always appreciate vladimir, let me go to you. breaking news here am a short time ago vladimir putin addressing the nation, announced that russia would be suspending negotiations for the start to treaty, which i think in total. now that is the end of arms control, the tao, the, the soviet union slash russia had with the west. arms control essentially is dead. i seriously doubt negotiations. i'll return before the 2026 expiration date. this is a major decoupling. did he coupling is done? would you say? so vladimir? yes. i think russia kept on sending the same message to united states and the nature that dawned escalate by it frozen the dead, the ears serrato go through one action of the action and they soon or later have to

realize that in our indeed, you know, all this talk about nuclear war is and not just store eat can result, you know, the other day. and by the next year it was really in key of odds and ends. he said, if china and to the fray, it means a 3rd world war. so in other words, it is just like, you know, it's important escalation and push and sends a message, a very clear message boards to that mr. origins and the foreign audience that this is and we'll do the best we can do to protect our conte, which includes you know, stop talking to the people who do not listen to us. exactly. michael and south end . if i go to you now, i me going back to this decoupling issue here, we have a battle of narratives, of putin is already given his address shortly. joe biden, in more so i will give his address. i s'pose it'll be pretty much a repetition of what he said last time. he was there very up outside of possible

gaps which we can always expect there. but, but michael, that me, this really is a battle of narratives. it says a decoupling on the that the red lines have been drawn here and russia continues to show that it will react to what the west is doing. and it has to do it out of self interest, obviously. but it's very serious and it's getting pretty scary. i would say, michael. yeah, no, i agree. although i think the pulling out of the start process is more symbolic than real in terms of its impact. i think the bigger thing that may be happening, in fact, is the decision of the chinese to be more supportive of the eye russians on in this war. so the, the real decoupling ah, is i, you know, if china becomes a, you know,

throws it's lottie and even more fully with the russians that will harden the battle lines in a big way to other things. one is the question, of course, of really how solid the atlantic community front is on maintaining the war. i think that's an open question at the elephant in the room though, is the a global south which has not bought into the western narrative in terms of who's at fault and how this thing needs to be brought to an end. so there is there a lot of deep divisions um and they seem to be hard neg career ab. i absolutely agree with the garland that i think that exists the exact reason why biden went to care of her, his very short visit. i mean, it was kind of across between a fundraising campaign and cheerleading. i'll keep trying to keep his coalition together, which is, is, is fraying at the, at this, at the, at the end because the,

the cost of this conflict to europe see europe is the one that's being crushed the most. you're obviously outside of the of ukraine here, and biden has to keep his flock in order. and so to go and it was a public relations stand to, they cleared it with the russians in advance. but i mean, this is biden's war and it's, he's thrown everything into it. that's what makes it so dangerous because these neil consider directing him. they're uncompromising. and at the same time, russia's not going to compromise its security. this is where we are. garland. yeah, i think it's also a reminder to everyone that of the current conflict and then in the current conflict that nato is now really a bilateral group. that is stuff the united states and the most extreme elements in the, in europe, which would be, you know, poll in any of the baltic states. i think that the, again, we say the elephant in the room, the blue whale and the phone booth shall we say,

is the north stream attacks by the, basically nato as a whole on germany. so i think a biden has, you know, again, bypass and ignore germany. he can't talk about germany much. now there are major problems and they're concerned as to how that's going to iron out in the long run. but i think the western europe that, you know, we can see some cracks in western europe. we can see some very significant an anti war rallies happening in munich. so i think biden's concerned and he's working with those who are of light, mind, poland, which seemed to be willing to, you know, readily sacrifice the lives and livelihoods of their own, of their, of their citizens. for the neocon project. yeah, they, i'm glad you brought up north stream because latimer, there's it, there's all this talk, you know, it's like on anti war dot com in responsible state craft about how negotiations could start. i don't know where these people are, where their head is blowing up the north stream pipelines here. i mean,

how do you negotiate with people like that? i have no idea vladimir. yeah, i think i mentioned earlier. corn is very important. so i think are, you know, there is another term, it describes i, america, of foreign policy is like woke a imperialist. so it's kind of an unhealthy kind of combination. oh, there's neo liberals with their walking and neo cons, with a imperialism. and this is a very powerful group. however, you know, i read in just an essay, talking about the psy mirage article about northwest a better do they. the fact that he got this information tells us that there is a split within united united states establishment. somebody in washington is not happy about this, we're walk empire and it's over each. so i think it's a very important kind of dimension which were mentioning, not only within the nato, but even without the united states establishment. because people are smart people

and been dug on an shay, they probably understand that this is in our, this is not in the, in american interest. this is in the interest of this very strange group around stay, stay department and buy it in the, you know, hot coil as a group, supporters. and it has to be stopped. but there are forces, i'm sure, normal or regular people who sort of in our united states would still believe that a business of america is business and not all. so i think of the one who eventually will, will come to power and russia will negotiate with them. yeah, i think my colleague has made a couple of very important points by a 1st the i, you know, the pro war party is broader than just the old, neo conservatives. i don't think i called on the, i, you know, the other part of it woke imperialists. i think i'd call them liberal imperialists . these are people who are deeply committed to the liberal world order yet. um and,

you know, i, i, i think there's a lot of, you know, sort of the liberal world order that i personally am attracted to. but i think the problem here is that, you know, it creates a series of big blind spots on that really, in my view, explain how we've gotten into this mass. you know, yesterday i jake sullivan, had sat at one point. i think it's reflecting on the cause of the war that nato expansion had nothing to do with nato's. a defensive alliance made up of democracies both of which are true. but, you know, i mean, from the perspective of the other side, you could see how that would also be irrelevant. and so i think when the history of this mass is written in much the same way that the history of the vietnam war was

written, years ago, our liberal blindness is gonna be a big factor in how we ended up in the soup here. won't garland even talking about the liberal world order. i mean, one of the things that really come about. and since the advent of this conflict is the intense russo phobia, i mean, you know, you have in the pages of foreign affairs, you basically have to break up russia. we have to break it up. i mean, this is where they're coming from. this is where it's all about and what makes it so pathetic is, has nothing to do with ukraine even though the ukrainians are being slaughtered. ok for a war that nato wanted. the history books will have to explain to me why the ukrainians went along with this in the 1st place. garland. so i'll push back, i oppose the concept of the liberal world order for a couple reasons. not the, not the least of which being it's a fake is equivalent lee, the idea of me walking up saying i'm here to help you in, in hitting you over the head with a rock and stealing your wallet. that liberal world order is number one, number 2,

it also implies a hierarchical cultural order in the world that implies the liberal order. the liberal way of seeing the world is somehow superior and that other people, traditional cultures, may be the africans. the middle eastern goes on cash cultures, et cetera, that they don't have a right to their culture. and if they would be better off if they accepted ours. and i think all of those countries are looking at what is happening in the us culture was shocking horror saying we don't want any parts of that. whether we agree or not. i believe that all cultures that rather than a hierarchical culture, that the world should be more like a mosaic where all cultures is, are viewed as part of a, of a, of, you know, a mosaic mosaic piece of art. which all of you have i to, garland wasn't, wasn't that traditional liberalism, that that's what it was. okay. yeah, right. but i think it's because, you know, i am, i am, i died in the world conservative. i don't want to become a liberal up. okay. and i don't want to be forced to become a liberal. ok they. and this is something that they believe they have to remake the

world in their own image. then the image of victoria new and that's a scary thought. or i finally got a gentleman. i'm gonna jump in, i gotta go, i gotta go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on you couldn't stay with archy ah ah, ah, in east of can't go to russian state. little, never, i've side as i'm phoning northland steve. with within the 55 when okay, 09 is 2000 speedy. one else with we will ban in the european union. the kremlin media machine. the state aren't russia

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tech, you know what of them, i need a you put in school this with one, they each the one that or, and you can actually beach could and should not, somebody's go to lunch with global. i'm sure yours about how she took on the job is to provide you enough room for to view clear to take a picture, go double grade. you have to go so good on a welcome back to cross fact where all things are considered. i'm peter about remind you were discussing you crate. ah okay, let's go back to michael and south and then the 1st part of the program in, in a direction. i didn't really expect that. i really like it because i like to talk about

the, the, the social and our philosophical angles of all of this here. you know, michael, it did this is, you know, one of the reasons why the, the, the liberal west, the leaks in the west. they hate russia because watches a very conservative place and that's something that they, they, they can't tolerate and they don't like to have any kind of alternative model. now you don't have to be a conservative in 2 shane russia, but mean this is something like, some of the themes here when a lot of people don't understand until netflix left the market, a lot of people would watch netflix and kind of an oddity, you know, like, wow, that's what they do in the west. we don't want that here. okay. but you know that that's in there's that now there is a growing rejection of this woke. it's doug culture, that is a and i agree with vladimir, that's really infiltrated foreign policy. your thoughts, michael? well, i think the fact that a lot of americans believe that i rashanda vladimir putin. i was deeply supportive of donald trump, quite polarized. yeah. but there isn't,

but there's that, there's not, there's no evidence of that, but nonetheless, know how, right? but, but nonetheless, a lot of people believe that, um, and so what it has done is, you know, make, this is made a domestic ideological fight in the united states. and international lives, and of course, i'm old enough to remember the cold war. and, you know, when the soviet union was regarded as you know, in the vanguard of the left. and now the irony is i, you know, for a lot of americans it's, i are a lot of americans on the left especially. it's now a force of reaction from the right. so my head is spinning. it's the aids a romantically during my life touch. yeah, yeah. like think the washington post never had anything bad to say about the soviet union has nothing good to say about russia today is in my head is spinning to

latimer. you know, i guess we're all children of the cold war here. and i knew a lot of great soviet specialists, really, really goods historians, they adored russia. that's why they studied the soviet union. they hated communism, but they adored russia and its culture and respected it here. that is another major change here. and you coming from a letters yourself that must be astounding for you teaching delsey ascii. go ahead . vladimir. yeah, it's in the whole thing is very, very crazy. it all this, our former former grade professor, 1st of all, and he took russia seriously. they, they to good with a spare. it was a different sort of, you know, getting a fish there. when they saw it, they admired may be certain things would put them all. but it was like a unique conton in which you go and stuff and study and explore. you know, i go to australia and study their animals which don't exist anymore. however, with a collapse of the soviet union, they may the very,

if you want your conclusion that it doesn't matter. you know, let's forget about the say that who cares about a unique, unique flora and fauna. let's, let's forget about it. and then being bombarded a year again, and i say is that he was you, his country, the only thing they can do is aggression. the only thing they can do is violence. so let's split them. and now until his meeks is like total loonies and but annoyed many acts and borland and bullies who actually support this idea. so basically, rather than sort of a taking thing seriously, will even the serious role we're facing? she is issues or a thing. it becomes like, know when all the truth as it does matter and, and we are harvested now. what, what was so, you know, vladimir, i had took the occasion a couple of weeks ago to re read alexander soldier and eat since famous commencement address. i. yes, i, which i didn't really understand at the time where he was coming from. but from the

context of 2023, it makes clear what, you know, the deep fault winds up between traditional russia, which had come to represent, at that point even well before the collapse of the soviet union. and the, the liberal, big l liberal west. and i wish i'd been smarter, i think i would be less confused by that. well, michael just came up for and came up with a great topic for a future edition of crossfire because that commencement the speech is absolutely fascinating. and remember, michael, after he made the speech the liberal west, turned their back on him. remember that? okay. yeah, they, he was can't, they didn't use deter, but they cancel them after that speech. let me go to garland right now. moving on, garland, you know, the, the, what has happened here, the west is turn this into an existential struggle, which it doesn't, didn't have to be for the west for russia. yes. because of security reasons. and

that's what it's all about. nobody in the west wants to talk about security. they want to talk about victory. if you continue to look with the russians, have to say, we need to be able to live securely in europe. and you're not allowing that to happen. that's why this conflict and ukraine happened. they still do not want to talk about it that way. it's existential. but they, but that is a craven choice and it's a self fulfilling prophecy. yeah. now it is turning into it because you made it that way. garland was existential for their narrative. and since the neocons at the neo liberal p class live in the narrative, it seems existential to them for their narrative to die. if to die is to attend to amount to them to them, to actually die kind of like when a person in the movie, the matrix dies in the matrix. they die in real life. that's the way they feel about their narrative being threatened. let me add this to, i think, and this is important statement i wanted to make. when we talk about conservatism, there's a conservatism, the more a conservatism that is not tied to left in right,

per se, in that's tied to tradition and stability. i've traveled extensively in south america, unabashed, socialist, marxist, linen, et cetera. but when it comes to conservatism, from a perspective of how they live on a day to day basis, they're much more aligned with, say, a russia than they are with the united states. why? because they are very much into their tradition, the indigenous people, et cetera, and they're very much believe in stability. so you say the liberals who the su tradition and who are create chaos and instability, you know, the so you know that they're not there. first of all, i think they're redefining less as cultural issues as opposed your traditional that which sees viewing the world through the context of the working class. so i think there's a, so there, there is a difference in definitions of what we mean by conservative values of,

or addition and stability. i can just savannah, our viewers, all nodding their heading, agreeing with you. because i do, and i think the are, are, are paneled as you, michael, you're the one that brought up the global south, which i called the global majority. um, you know, during, during the cold war they, they did look to the soviet union as a friend, as an ally because it was anti west anti imperialist. but they still do now mid in and not they, they look towards this of you, not because of its communism because they were against oppression of the west. but now we have in the end of the cold war here. now we have the global south again looking to, to a, to russia in the, in the way that got garland just explained to us traditional values. michael instability ability is worth it. so yeah, i get, i think it's a, it's a combination of things. certainly, as garland says, i'm, you know, as joseph sham, peter famously said about capitalism. it's a process of creative destruction. i think political liberalism also is

a process of creative destruction. and what gets destroyed are often traditional values. and most people are uncomfortable with the destruction of traditional values. so, to the extent that russia seems like a, a proponent of a different way of political and social ordering, it's tract, if i think also though it's balance of bow power politics. if you think that the united states in the unit polar moment is, it needs to be counterbalanced. russia and china are probably 2 of the logical countries that you're going to look to for that counterbalancing. so it strikes me as being over determine power and culture. it, well, let me, let's, let's address that here because the ukraine seems to be the epicenter of

a new cold war. and this is something again, the neocons around joe biden seemed to be prepared for it. he, they've been able to cow and capture europe to the point where europe has lost its sovereignty. though they're fighting in ukraine for ukraine sovereignty, i find that really odd. oh, by the way that the american southern border is left unguarded. i mean, there's some very peculiar value slotting around here. black vladimir, go ahead. there is unbelievable hypocrisy which way, which, which will we fit? you know, i like the concept or which garland introduces mosaic and united states, or just say they tolerate mosaic in canada or united states as an english speaking country. and it's fine if canadians want to have a french and english and have their own kind of, you know, odds are asian as college and go back fine. what's happened in ukraine out of the blue rather than haven, this mosaic. they have irrational speaking the east, very culture, the pro ration east. they have it, you know, culture to pro polish,

a bro weston, a west and i'm relieved in iran from keeps. so this is should be grand moralist. continue to exist on the, on the principal miss eg. however, the, with the nato, united states decided to use this moment to impose this west ukrainian values. people, you know, very much agricultural, you know, culture bonded very industrialized pro russian east. this is, this is absolutely hip or is it, they don't do it in belgium, insisted in some particular language. they don't do it in canada. but ukraine was a very interesting, important born of contention where they agreed to throw all their values of respect for other cultures for minorities. just for the sake of driving this, this kind of civility strange message home, keep germany down, keep russia out there and you know, i put that would be great as a wedge between russia in europe. and this is the unity which is there. okay. yeah . michael, we got 40 seconds, finish it all for us. well,

i think the tragedy of the ukraine war is ultimately going to be on that many in the west thought that they were doing the lord's work. but as we know, the road to hell is often paved with good intentions, and we're certainly seeing the road to hell in ukraine today. yeah is i've often pointed out on this program, the more the west helps ukraine, the more ukrainians die in the smaller the country comes. that that's a great ally to have. it's really truly remarkable. and i have no idea what future historians will make of it. that's all the time we have gentlemen. i want to thank my guests in washington, new york, and in south and, and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz. see you next time. remember, cross titles. ah,

ah, in the 1950s, the u. s used former nazis against the soviet union. in the 21st century. they engineered kuta, the page, the former soviet republic, into our confrontation with moscow. will certainly if the united states and the u. k and the rest of the western world had not engaged in conflict with the ukraine and with the soviet union and his successor, the russian federation. we would not have the horrible situation we have today. i think that if the american stopped and we would be at peace and the role would be a lot better place and the economy, the world or function, certainly better than it's doing now. ah

me what happens with digital games with actual physical sport? something like digital. yeah, there's yes, because on is preparing to host the 1st ever gains of the future. a cyber context with a physical dimension. one of the innovators, eager to study at all, is on the verge of redefining sports and gaming. he tells us what's behind this synergy and if it's the future, when i looked showed the wrong one, i just don't hold any world. yes. to shape out the same becomes the african and engagement. it was betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground. ah,

ah, corporation has never been aimed at any 3rd party. but we never allow any 3rd party to dictate to us what to do with cooperation between china and russia. as we said, more than once, is very important in stabilizing the international situation. china's top diplomat gotta be paid to meet in moscow to discuss waste, his friends and bilateral cooperation. i'll see if it's a temporary refugee camp and they don't yet have, they can fix it. those who have been evacuated from the front lines in on tomorrow, but they told us to write our initials on our hands with a red marker because they were going to bury us there.