ah, ah, with ah ah hello in welcome to crosstalk, where all things are considered on peter lavelle. the great decoupling has finally occurred with russia suspending his participation in the new start arms control treaty. russia and the west have gone their own separate ways and in the process, arms control appears to be dead in the water. more troubling times, i had a cross

hocking decoupling. i'm joined by my guests had c intense mania. he's a conflict consultant and a retired u. s. foreign service officer in paris. we have job brick mall. he is a political commentator and endure shot. are we cross to christopher lee? he is a political analyst and researcher, or a gentleman cross type roles. in fact, that means you can jump any time you want, and i would appreciate was got a tenant tens mania 1st. ted, i mean what, you know, i'm, i'm sure all of you saw the 2 speeches, one, the garb bladder, me putin gave to the nation, an annual event. and, but biden's appearances in care of and in warsaw. and you couldn't get more juxtaposed. ok, biden is on an ideological crusade. um, it's not, there's no sense of cause causality. there is no context. there's not even really a goal. the rest of the russian president talked about why brushes in this conflict . it's about geo politics and security. and you can get more diverse than that. and

this is one of the reasons why i think the west is misunderstanding why the conflict started in the 1st place in white. it continues your thoughts, ted? well, i think peter, the problem that we continue to see is that the west producers to listen to russia has completely ignored russian red lines for many years now. and the real difficulty right at the moment, i believe, is unlike former us presidents who weren't listening to the president of the russian federation, we now have one who can't listen because he's not mentally quite there. but so a very good point. they're generally the same, a question to you is that this is one of the reasons why this conflict is, is construed in a, in radically different ways. again, russia is talking about security in right before the conflict on december 17th, 2001 they said look, here's what we need. we need to talk about these things. and they were completely

blown off by washington and by nato and the n. here we are, and that rush, his goal is to end this when it security is been assured, nobody in the west seriously wants to talk about the french president. if it's an odd day or an even day, i can't really tell he flip flops back and forth here on this issue here. but until both sides can get on the same page, this conflict isn't going to come to an end. go ahead in paris. yes. where i think you have to, with this conflict in perspective, in what happened over the 20th century, which is mostly the process of the colonization or di wished and his ation. it started 1920 with the beckle congress. and you have been to the people of the are young to just launch by lennon and a bunch of weeks coding for them to be decoded, eyes because they're here later. evolution in you hope was impossible. and that's what the appeal to people like months. i don't know what you mean and started the one about the process of the colonization. the 2nd stage was the bundle conference

in indonesia, in 1955 and the beginning of the land line movement, which launched a new stage for the final company. the completion of the deaconate zation in africa and elsewhere. and then also the creation of down present would be independent, both from the companies block and from the west and from the united states. and, and that went along her the well, i thing, but of course with the collapse of the soviet union. the western has had, you know, that i've been busy with checks is to use the phrase used by studying during the eclipse musician did it again. dizzy with texas, they thought that the, this a new doesn't you're right in front of them and they're going to control the world . and that was of course, the newly born b i. e. and there he couldn't use ation of part of the world and interventions in yugoslavia architecture, etc. and now they have run into something haley difficult with his her show her. sure, he's not the ac is not here and even say i wasn't

a success and even against and was not to success, but certainly crochet is much more resistant. and the main change lou to the war, i don't want to, this goes to war. it says, is the person between the russia and china and the fact that the rest of the world, including india, which has been stayed to china for many years and have good latin america. and africans are getting closer to this new must go beijing axis. and then that of course, is the most significant event of the last year. in my view, if perspective was going on in the car in ukraine, it's a new need. ready against it, western the that such an excellent point to me and i think this program is real about decoupling, but basically it's battle a battle of narratives. it's full and christopher here, chris, way it's fascinating. went to john, had to say, because this is the, the west continues to want to recreate the world in its own image. and we're in, they had a brick wall when it came to rush, rush said,

now we're not going to go along with that. and the rest of the world is taking a good part of the world is taking that q is that? no, we will not follow your rules based order. what other mumbo jumbo you want to throw at us here. there is a breach. there's a significant breach here. and it's having a knock on effect. the global south is not reacting to the west wants. obviously china is and, and india is a, is a wild card here. there's a lot of things in play right now. christopher, go ahead. basically, you have to look at the past the, you know, few decades to understand after the collapse of the soviet union. it's not like the u. s. and it's a utopian partners and nato, all of a sudden were, you know, going out and generous to the global south, and generous to others. instead, they did the opposite. they went on the warpath. they destroyed yugoslavia. they went to eventually into afghanistan, into iraq, into libya. they've destroyed syria. they've gone through countless countries and just reeked havoc and devastation. so everybody else is watching this over the past

few decades is saying, this is coming for us. not only russia and china, the dpr kate under, you know, 1st under kim's janiella, now under kim's, when they're watching. and they're saying, absolutely not. we're not gonna believe that they have our legitimate interests, or that they care about our sovereignty and our territorial integrity. they don't, and so ultimately, over the past few decades, you know, vladimir putin has tried a persistently to call for negotiations to call for diplomacy to call for something to happen. and what you've seen is further encroachment further expansion by nato. and so, of course, russia has a, a, an important part in its national defense, its its national security, which is its strategic debt that can allow nato to come right to the border just within a few 100 kilometers of its capital. and it's major sites. so ultimately, when you're looking at this, when you're looking at the 2 speeches, you known is he to narratives, you see 2 completely different visions of the world. one under he gemini,

of the west, one under u. s. u nato, imperialism, and the other with a new multiple, the world where people have respect for the sovereignty, the territorial integrity and the internal affairs of all the respective countries . and is this public go ahead to head here, it go ahead, jump in, shall go ahead. well, those, this week me, which is today will the, this week the chinese hoodies of baby about germany. could you say all aspect of your urban america, the german trying to read. but just being, i hope there be another cluster about that because that seem to be well italian. we were reading my mind. let me go to ted here on this here. i mean, the rest of the world is watching how the united states deals. it's with it's close allied germany and the north stream pipelines. i mean, if that's how america treats its bread and how is america and its allies go to treat pose. i mean that, that western media doesn't want to talk about it. you know, people are her,

she's the greatest living journalist of our time and he's being ignored by the new york times by the way, where he used to work here. but that event blowing up those pipelines is good. it has ramifications that i think even the people in the white house have no idea what their bun leashed. ted, go ahead. peter, i'll be the 1st to say that, say more very, haven't got everything he's written correct in a long and always interesting career. but at this time, i've worked with jake sullivan, i've worked with toria new and everything he wrote. that's true to me. i think he got this one right. and i know he got it right. but the fact that it's now it's a public source and available to people without sort of hiding behind classifications, means that the narrative is crumbling at light speed. pretending that it was anyone other than united states special courses that went in and did this act, that destruction and damaged europe for decades to come. thank you very much. you

can safely ignore everyone. you can safely ignore the official narrative. the truth is out. yeah, well christopher, i mean this was an active international terrorism. ok, i mean, and we in ok if, if the united states didn't do it then who did it's kind of like the o. j. simpson trial. ok. i mean, if he didn't kill his ex wife and then who did ok, christopher. i think of 1st and foremost, you know, now that sy hersh has written this article, we've been saying it for, for months now, yet we've been saying that this did, that there was no possibility, no way that russia spend billions of dollars to create this pipeline. and to, and use it as part of their diplomacy, parapro from out with europe, the building, the mutual a sort of agreements and success of all of the entire continent. and all of a sudden they're going to go and destroy their own pipeline. it doesn't make sense, but of course, instantly you know, part of this, the reality that we're now living in, we were the one spreading misinformation and this information, quote, unquote,

we were the one spreading. a, you know, a kremlin propaganda. it wasn't prevalent propaganda and it isn't. it's just of the ality that russia would not do this. it's not within. it is just out of the bounds of, of what would be realistic. and now that sy hersh has written this, i think it's taking the lead off of this. this is the cocktail that, that the west is, is making in their mainstream media. and people are finally seeing and waking up and saying maybe maybe we're being duped. not only on north stream by blank, but on everything in friend and connected with a variety of issues, whether be the operation ukraine, or for example, the balloon going over the u. s. as my balloon. a bridge where you really just go ahead, we have 40 seconds before we go to the break. i had jump. do you remember the day mind or how bell south nicaragua during the sandinista game? yeah, i mean was, we were even condemned by the international court of justice and they never paid reparation. that's pure gang stories of the used to doing to the south and other do

it to you. oh, well, i mean it, all 3 of you in our audience here was weapons of mass destruction. does that ring any bells or any one here? i mean, if they light about that, then they open. we have to safely assume that they lie about a whole lot of things. maybe about everything we'll go, we'll ask had when we come back from the break because he used to work in the belly of the beast itself, or a gentleman. we're going to go to a short break after that short break. we'll continue our discussion on decoupling st with ah ah, yes. now you need yes. if it's deploy bucket near to nancy in the computer, the new book is up probably the less will shift the radiate young showcase in

a ways it up to a boy. ah ah, what would be dealing with? what am in my chair, this is, laura doesn't want that extra mom, but it's up under that y'all. i think russia in the 21st century has taken several opportunities to try to see if they would be interested in the west to create new boundaries to create a new relationship. and as you mentioned, time and time and time again,

it would get flatly rejected because we have sort of pushed russia into this corner, ideologically attitude way to say you're the adversary. you're the, we may not be in a formal bipolar ideological cold war anymore. but we're not going to allow a new relationship to develop with ah, them would important to have with them put, begin to receive celia was this because they get to school, you need to give you a pity in new year. oh for hey, i teach that way. no, i'm reaching out. should tosto you if you did it from google valuable? would you repeat the sheila wishing to achieve? i'm a new model for the woman lumala mon, william,

for from sterling from bush lots and lots of them all day. glad of. giblin you her what the continued yet. i'm just i get a month or so the lowest lee, i'm over there. what did some of the property to live for carson brought? are you serious? i finish. this is just those it's for did you hear? i'm us. national wouldn't become sleep today. friday, that is montoya origin republic referral, blue shirt and shown in another. there was a little bit of indigenous unfinished. ah ah, welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter bell to remind you we're discussing decoupling. ah okay, let's go back to ted in tanzania. had you said something quite tantalizing in the 1st part of the program that you've worked with the likes of jake sullivan and you

believed that they were very much involved in this on this plan to destroy the pipelines. can you give us a little bit? i mean, that's kind of a tease not very fair to me, our viewers explain yourself. well, let's just say that everything that hers wrote about the 2 of them being involved with the planning and execution of this operation rings true. having seen them in action when i was with the u. s. mission at nato. okay, well that, that, that's not a lot of detail, but we're gonna take your word on it. okay. i me go back to christopher christopher . you know that there's this all this talk, i look at the pages of, you know, like, responsible state craft antiwar dot com, even american conservative. and they're talk to, they talk about an a, some kind of negotiated and what is there to negotiate. i mean, rush has already made it clear what it wants to have happen. and until the west reacts to that, i don't understand what these negotiations are all about. and oh, by the way, i cease fire. well why would brush you agree, agree to a ceasefire?

so nato can build up ukraine again, and they do it 5 years from now. i mean, on the, you know, you know, one of the, all 3 of you, you know, it really disappoints me. is that a lot of smart people over the last year of said really stupid things. i expected more from them. christopher, go ahead. now i would, i would say that you're absolutely correct. and not only that, but the putin has been, and the russian government and leverage have been saying this for, for years and years. nobody's been listening. russia's security concerns have been at the forefront of all of their major speeches of all their diplomatic overtures. and it hasn't been acted upon. and the reason is that the u. s. and nato are not really concern. and not really in any way willing to give even an inch to the russians because that's not part of the war machines plan. because you need to have the enemy, you need to have, and russia is no longer communist. russia is no longer to soviet union, but you see how they reproduce this language. now they reproduce it because they

need that enemy because their stockholders in these a big military industrial complex, you know, corporations, they need it, they need it because they need to make more armaments, more missiles, more planes, more ships, whatever they need. so i think ultimately when you're looking at this, what negotiation, what settlement, what ceasefire can come from, of conflict where one site does not respect the national security interest of the other side, nor it's overtures in saying, we don't want a belligerent alliance at our border. that is a relic of the cold war where we disbanded the other part of that military alliance . you know, the one in opposition to it. it doesn't make sense. there can be no negotiation. no settlement of this current crisis, unless the, the u. s. and nato and the european partners take seriously russia's security concerns, an advocate for a ukraine that won't join nato, that will be neutral. and that won't be a breeding ground for all of the things that are being concocted in washington and

in brussels and in the halls of power in the wes english under. if we're going to put our money on an elite in bear bach, i think we're all in really big trouble. okay. is on the was interesting a go to a new cycles ago, the former vice president of the united states pence was on fox news. and he referred to russia as the soviet union, and that's just the problem. they keep saying. they still think in that paradigm, they think in a cold war paradigm here. and i could tell you living here for a quarter of century, they have dispensed with that paradigm. completely, it's the west that continues to embrace it. go ahead in paris working there is one continuing to do with the soviet union. is that the current version not, not yours in the us there and a gym and they can they dont she did not like the safety of her unipolar world. and the soviet union was against it too. and that's what made it popular in the rest of the world to some extent. and i think so. so what makes russia popular the rest of the world to some extent? because they did the lead of the vote of the global south against this unipolar

world is american. the gym and eighty's, american exceptionalism, etc, etc. so i think that's in depth and there is a continued de, hey, there is no continued d as well. just so sick and i make of the political system is concerned. but those this mentality which i am a say please. the russians. well, is that the project is a jim american hegemony. we do your b and so the western european at least embrace. but then of course that's that taking is the, the main, the main continuity of jewish and demeanor. he's on for this intent hostility to her show that we have in the west. well, of it, there's other, another continuity, it's western had gemini, that has not changed here at ted o and looking at what's coming out of the administration in the, in, from an nato sultan burg. i mean, they're sending out a really a wide array of messages. there's no more ammunition, we don't know how much more aid we can give. but then there are biden is saying,

as long as it takes still, and it seems to me that there's the messaging, it's getting kind of sloppy on their part because it's, it's the, the, the, that in the narrative is beginning to crack your thoughts. go ahead. ted absolutely agree, peter. i think there's a note of desperation creeping into that messaging. quite frankly, in nato, we're dealing with something that shouldn't have existed one minute longer than the soviet union. it's never had a purpose after the end of the soviet union never will have a purpose. everything they try and come up with is frankly a nonsense. there's never been consensus within to agree before the recent conflict in russia with the enemy. and even now they haven't officially placed russia in their court documents as the enemy. and there's a good reason for that because frankly, there's still some, some reasonable, you know, stream thinking people in europe. i wish i could say the same about washington right now. this whole situation is one of the west making. obviously,

nato keeps searching for a reason or natal reminds me in that sense of the scientists, us nuclear labord tories, who says the 1st discovery of nuclear winter back in the mid eighties, when global arsenals that built down from sort of 70000 nuclear weapons down to the sort of mid below, teens of thousands of nuclear weapons decided to sort of put up with nuclear winter back in the eighty's because they still had a lot they could do and still maintain their pensions. these days, the threat from nuclear winter to the nuclear establishment, the nuclear weapons mafia, the big numer cartel is i like to call it. and that manufacturers government departed. everyone involved is substantial because we can't afford to have 10 to thousands of nuclear weapons around. we can't afford to have tens of hundreds and nuclear weapons around because we're this close to the apocalypse,

even if nothing. and in ukraine, and in that sense, those, you know, the los alamos national laboratory scientists are preserving their own careers. yeah. the same way that they know and it's in for structured without review, exists that, that's the biggest problem. it comes to very, you've already kind of touched upon it. but you know, again, you know, the, the juxtaposition could not be more clear. i mean, nato is a business model. i mean it's, it's about generating budgets for expenditures, okay. on, on weapons that don't necessarily would have to work actually up again. but if you get a budget to get the next year's budget bigger than that, that one before. i mean, it's all about driving out there. it's preservation and wasting other people's money. okay. because i don't think the americans are going to send their big tanks there. you know why, because they'll be destroyed immediately after they cross the border and they know that, okay? but you know,

if you to promise out 50 tags and you gotta order 50 more tags, hey, everybody understand how this works. go ahead, christopher. i have to agree and actually was known chomsky years ago who said that that the only reason for nato survival afterwards was really to maintain and control world energy supplies. and so you look at all the words, don't forget, nato was involved in the overthrow of the government. the wal mart, gadhafi and libya actively involved in destroying that country. actively involved on the ground with the us effort. now forgot to sign, providing support as part of coalitions for other campaigns of securing shipping lanes and things like that, against the quote unquote pirates and who knows what. so i think ultimately barrett their purpose and the way i see it is similar to how others have seen it, which is as a, as an imperialist arm, it's sort of the imperialist armed forces of dis, a unipolar and hedge, a monic of global structure. so when you look at it in that sense,

you understand that as it continues to expand and don't forget, it's the only in europe. columbia is of quote, unquote, global partner of nato, dave der, trying to bring in other partners in, for example, oceania. so you're looking at this and you're saying this really is the global reach of well i haven't met christopher, it was, isn't it really obvious to you? is that what the, what didn't these mandarins, the west they want to do? they wanted, they want to short circuit the united nations. they want to have their own global coalition of the willing and, and nato doesn't want to have any or the united states. want to have any restraints put on it here. i think that's very much part of it, and i also agree you're absolutely right all a great deal that is directed at energy here, that we're almost out of time here at 10, you know, as far as one a guy is out, you want to jump in go ahead, what i just wanted to say that if i look at the peace movement thing to the west in the fan, so even germany, it's a better. i mean though, the 1st of all condemn,

of course, the russian intervention in between. so between sloth, et cetera. then they turn them to some extent they to but they never said latasha should do military security. and so most important in my view for the security of the ocean, people who live in mclean. i mean ido, we are to believe that the people in dumbass and he may actually want to be canaan under the present king and his him and have been forced to be russian by ocean troops, which i think is totally unbelievable. as we have to realize that these people should have rights. why should you chain the height of independence in the soviet union be sacrosanct? but the height of said that there were some of the russian people who have been putting a cane at the time of the soviet solution of no heights whatsoever uses and make any sense. and as something which he stood in your bay of so called anti war movements. why a pair? apparently i've here a browley, i think you're making reference to the united states. if, if you, if you're against, are the more than your opponent puppet in your

a white supremacist. but ted it, united states in nato countries are supporting essentially and least nazi elements in care of that. no one wants to talk about on the west. 3rd to we have 20 seconds . go ahead and head. okay, i'm here for 20 seconds worth of fun here. let's think what the west could do to make a difference in the, in the war in ukraine right now. is there something of value that nato has in europe that it can give away in return for, say, negotiations commencing between russia and ukraine for the settlement. we have to think really hard about this, but if it were me, i'd be looking at the nuclear gravity. bombs with us, maintains, in europe for no good reason. ok, that's ending on a very depressing point. thank you. have a gentleman and that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guest in tasmania perez and and their shower and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at our dc you next time. remember, cross stuck with

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