the hello and welcome the cross talk where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . the great decoupling has finally occurred with russia suspending its participation in the new start arms control treaty. russia and the west have gone their own separate ways and in the process, arms control appears to be dead in the water. more troubling times ahead. the. the cross talking the coupling. i'm joined by my guess ted see and tens mania. he's accomplished consultant and a retired u. s. foreign service officer and parents. we have shomberg mall. he is a political commentator and endure shot. are we close to christopher lee? he is a political analyst and researcher. hi, gentleman cross close to the fact that means you can jump anytime you want. and i would appreciate. let's go to 10 and 10, many of the 1st 10. i mean what i'm, i'm sure all of you solve the 2 speeches. one that let me put and gave to the

nation an annual event, and biden's appearances and in care of and in warsaw. and you couldn't get more checks to post. biden is on an ideological crusade. it's not, there's no sense of cause causality. there is no context, there's not even really a goal. the rest of the russian president talked about why brushes in this conflict . it's about geo politics in security. and you can get more diverse than that. and this is one of the reasons why think the west is misunderstanding why the conflict started in the 1st place and why it continues your thoughts, ted? well, i think peter, the problem that we continue to see is that the west producers to listen to russia has completely ignored russian red lines for many years now. and the real difficulty right at the moment, i believe, is unlike for us presidents who weren't listening to the president of the russian

federation, we now have one who can't listen because he's not mentally quite there. but so a very good point. they're generally the same, a question to you is that this is one of the reasons why this conflict is, is construed in a, in radically different ways. again, russia is talking about security and right before the conflict. on december 17th, 2001 they said, look, here's what we need. we need to talk about these things. and they were completely blown off by washington and by nato and the n. here we are, and that rush, his goal is to end this when it security is been assured, nobody in the west seriously wants to talk about the french president. if it's an odd day or an even day, i can't really tell he flip flops back and forth here on this issue here. but until both sides can get on the same page, this conflict isn't going to come to an end. go ahead in paris. yes. where i think you have to, with this conflict in perspective,

in what happened over the 20th century, which is mostly the process of d colonization or di wished on the zation. it started 1920 with the backward congress. and the appeal to the people of the are young, who just launched by lenin and devoted weeks coding for them to be decoded because they're here later. evolution and you hope was impossible. and that certainly happy to people like not to know what you mean and started the one part of the process of the conversation. the 2nd stage was the bundle conference in indonesia and 1955 and the beginning of the underlying movement which launched a new stage for the final company, the completion of the deaconate zation in africa and elsewhere. and also the creation of down present would be independent boot from the companies block and then from the west and from the united states. and that went along her, the well aching. but of course, with the collapse of the soviet union. the western has had, you know,

that i've been physically checks is to use the phrase used by studying during the eclipse musician did it again, dizzy with texas. they thought that the, this a new doesn't, you're right in front of them and they're going to control the world. and that was of good and the only will be a then the reconciliation of part of the world and interventions in yugoslavia architecture, etc. and now they have run into something highly difficult with his hutcher. he's not the back is not to hear and even say i wasn't a success and even against and was not to success, but certainly crush is much more resistant. and the main change lou to the war, i don't want to, this goes to war. it says, is the a personal and between the russia and china and the fact that the rest of the world, including india, which has been assigned to china for many years. and have good latin america and africans are getting closer to this new must go beijing axis. and then that of this is the most significant event of the last year. in my view,

if perspective was going on in the can you change to lou need. ready against it west under that such an excellent point. i mean i, i think this program is real about decoupling, but basically it's battle a battle of narratives. it's full and christopher here, chris, way it's fascinating. went to john, had to say, because this is the, the west continues to want to recreate the world in its own image and where and they had a brick wall when it came to rush. rush said, now we're not going to go along with that. and the rest of the world is taking a good part of the world is taking that q is that? no, we will not follow your rules based order. what other mumbo jumbo you want to throw at us here. there is a breach. there's a significant breach here. and it's having a knock on effect, the global south is not reacting to the west wants. obviously china is and, and india is a, is a wild card here. there's a lot of things in play right now. christopher, go ahead. basically, you have to look at the past the, you know,

few decades to understand after the collapse of the soviet union. it's not like the u. s. and it's a utopian partners and nato, all of a sudden were, you know, going out and generous to the global south, and generous to others. instead, they did the opposite. they went on the warpath. they destroyed yugoslavia. they went to eventually into afghanistan, into iraq, into libya, and they've destroyed syria. they've gone through come this countries and just reeked havoc and devastation. so everybody else is watching this over the past few decades is saying, this is coming for us. not only russia and china, the dpr kate under, you know, 1st under kim's janiella, now under kim's, when they're watching. and they're saying, absolutely not. we're not gonna believe that they have our legitimate interest, or that they care about our sovereignty and our territorial integrity. they don't, and so ultimately, over the past few decades, you know, vladimir putin has tried a persistently to call for negotiations to call for diplomacy to call for something

to happen. and what you've seen is further encroachment further expansion by nato. and so, of course, russia has a, a, an important part in its national defense, its its national security, which is its strategic debt that can allow nato to come right to the border just within a few 100 kilometers of its capital. and it's major sites. so ultimately, when you're looking at this, when you're looking at the 2 speeches, you known is he to narratives, you see 2 completely different visions of the world. one under he gemini, of the west, when under u. s. u nato, imperialism, and the other with a new multiple, the world where people have respect or the sovereignty, the territorial integrity and the internal affairs of all the respective countries . and is a sudden go ahead to head here, it go ahead, jump in, shall go ahead. with those this week we, which is to deal with the this week. the chinese, i've heard, he's

a baby about germany. could you say all aspect of your urban america, the gemini, has not time to read it, but just ending. i hope there be another cluster about that because that seem to be well italian. we were reading my mind. let me go to ted here on this here. i mean, the rest of the world is watching how the united states deals. it's with it's close allied germany and the north stream pipelines. i mean if that's how america treats its bread and how is america and its allies go to treat pose. i mean that, that, that the western media doesn't want to talk about it, you know, but fema hirsch's, the greatest living journalist of our time. and he's being ignored by the new york times, by the way, where he used to work here. but that event blowing up those pipelines is good. it has ramifications that i think even the people in the white house have no idea what they have unleashed. ted, go ahead peter, i'll be the 1st to say that, say more or haven't got everything he's written correct. in a long and always interesting career. but at this time i've worked with jake

sullivan. i've worked with toria new and everything he wrote. that's true to me. i think he got this one right. and i know he got it right. but the fact that it's now a public source and available to people without sort of hiding behind classification means that the narrative is crumbling. it might be pretending that it was anyone other than united states special courses that went in and did this act of destruction. and damaged europe for decades to come. thank you very much. you can safely ignore everyone. you can safely ignore the official narrative. the truth is out. yeah, well, christopher, i mean this was an active international terrorism. ok, i mean, and we in ok if, if, if the united states didn't do it then who did it's kind of like the o. j. simpson trial. ok. i mean, if he didn't kill his ex wife and then who did ok, christopher. i think of 1st and foremost, you know, now that sy hersh has written this article, we've been saying it for,

for months now, yet we've been saying that this, that there was no possibility, no way that russia spend billions of dollars to create this pipeline. and to and use it as part of their diplomacy, parapro from out with europe, the building, the mutual a sort of agreements and success of all of the entire continent. and all of a sudden they're going to go and destroy their own pipeline. it doesn't make sense, but of course, instantly you know, part of this, the reality that we're now living in, we were the one spreading misinformation and this information, quote, unquote, we were the one spreading. a, you know, a kremlin propaganda. it wasn't prevalent propaganda and it isn't. it's just of the ality that russia would not do this. it's not within. it is just out of the bounds of, of what would be realistic. and now that sy hersh has written this, i think it's taking the lid off of a dis, a cocktail that, that the west is, is making in their mainstream media. and people are finally seeing and waking up and saying maybe maybe we're being duped, not only on north stream by blank,

but on everything in french and connected with a variety of issues. whether be the operation ukraine, or for example, the balloon going over to you as, as my balloon. a bridge where you really just go ahead, we have 40 seconds before we go to the break, go ahead, jump you. do you remember the day mind to how those us think i had gone during the sandinista time? yeah, i mean, we were even condemned by the international court of justice and they never paid arbitration. that's pure gang stories and they used to do it to the south and other do it to you. oh, well, i mean it all 3 of you in our audience here. weapons of mass destruction. does that ring any bells or anyone here? i mean, if they light about that then that then a, we have to safely assume that they lie about a whole lot of things. maybe about everything we'll go, we'll ask had when we come back from the break because he used to work in the belly of the beast itself, or a gentleman, we're going to go to a short break after that short break. we'll continue our discussion on decoupling st. with

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oh, oh, need to come to russian state total narrative. i've stayed as i'm phoning those landscape div us. mm hm. the american goes house lamps and neatly coop in this is he battled the speedo keys on any final speedy. when else about receiving them we will ban in the european union.

the kremlin media machine estate aunt rush up to date and split our t spoke neck. even our video agency, roughly all band on youtube and pinterest shampoo, school nutrition diggity, even clifford shelf with ah, welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered on peter bell to remind you we're discussing decoupling. ah, okay, let's go back to ted in, tanzania. had you said something quite tantalizing in the 1st part of the program that you've worked with the likes of jake sullivan and you believed that they were

very much involved in this on this plan to destroy the pipelines. can you give us a little bit? i mean, that's kind of a tease not very fair to me, our viewers explain yourself. well, let's just say that everything that hersh wrote about the 2 of them being involved with the planning and execution of this operation rings true. having seen them in action when i was with the u. s. mission at nato. okay. well that, that, you know, that's not a lot of detail, but we're gonna take your word on it. okay. i me go back to christopher christopher . you know that there's this all this talk, i look at the pages of, you know, like, responsible state craft antiwar dot com, even american conservative and their talk to they talk about an a, some kind of negotiated and what is there to negotiate. i mean, rush has already made it clear what it wants to have happen. and until the west reacts to that, i don't understand what these negotiations are all about. and oh, by the way, i cease fire. well why would brush you agree, agree to a ceasefire?

so nato can build up ukraine again, and they do it 5 years from now. i mean, on the, you know, you know, one of the, all 3 of you, you know, it really disappoints me. is that a lot of smart people over the last year of said really stupid things. i expected more from them. christopher, go ahead. now i would, i would say that you're absolutely correct. and not only that, but the putin has been, and the russian government and leverage have been saying this for, for years and years. nobody's been listening. russia's security concerns have been at the forefront of all of their major speeches of all their diplomatic overtures. and it hasn't been acted upon. and the reason is that the u. s. and nato are not really concerned. and not really in any way willing to give even an inch to the russians because that's not part of the war machines plan. because you need to have the enemy, you need to have, and russia is the longer communist russia is no longer the soviet union. but you see how they reproduce this language. now they reproduce it because they need that enemy because their stockholders in these a big military industrial complex,

you know, corporations, they need it, they need it because they need to make more armaments, more missiles, more planes, more ships, whatever they need. so i think ultimately when you're looking at this, what negotiation, what settlement, what ceasefire can come from, of conflict where one site does not respect the national security interest of the other side, nor it's overtures in saying, we don't want a belligerent alliance at our border. that is a relic of the cold war where we disbanded the other part of that military alliance . you know, the one in opposition to it. it doesn't make sense. there can be no negotiation. no settlement of this current crisis, unless the, the u. s. and nato and the european partners take seriously russia's security concerns, an advocate for a ukraine that won't join nato, that will be neutral. and that won't be a breeding ground for all of the things that are being concocted in washington and in brussels and in the halls of power in the wes english under here. if,

if we're going to put our money on an elite, a bare bach, i think we're all in really big trouble. okay. is on the was interesting a go to a new cycles ago, the former vice president of the united states pence was on fox news. and he referred to russia as the soviet union, and that's just the problem. they keep saying. they still think in that paradigm, they think in a cold war paradigm here. and i could tell you living here for a quarter of century, they have dispensed with that paradigm. completely, it's the west that continues to embrace it. go ahead in paris. working there is one continue to do with the soviet union. is that the current version not, not yours in the us? there aren't a gym and they can, they don't. she did not like the safety of her unipolar world, and the soviet union was against it too. and that's what made it popular in the rest of the world to some extent. and i think so. so what makes russia popular in the us of the world to some extent, because they did the lead of the her revolt of the global south against is unipolar

world is american. the gym on ages, american exceptionalism, etc, etc. so i think that's endeavoring days have continued a hater, the snow continued to as well. just so sick and i make on the political system is concerned. but there is this mentality which i, i must say. praise the russians. well, is that the project is a jim american, a, germany, we do your b and so the western european at least embrace. but then of course that's the thinking is the, the main, the main continuity, jewish and demeanor. he's on for this intent hostility to her show that we have in the west. well, of it, there's other, another continuity, it's western had gemini, that has not changed here at ted o and looking at what's coming out of the administration in the, in, from an nato sultan burg. i mean, they're sending out a really oh, a wide array of messages. there's no more ammunition, we don't know how much more aid we can give. but then there are biden is saying,

as long as it takes still, and it seems to me that there's the messaging is getting kind of sloppy on their part because it's, it's the, the, the, that in the narrative is beginning to crack your thoughts. go ahead, ted. absolutely agree, peter. i think there's a note of desperation creeping into that messaging, quite frankly. but in nato we're dealing with something that shouldn't have existed one minute longer than the soviet union. it's never had a purpose after the end of the soviet union never will have a purpose. everything they try and come up with is, is frankly a nonsense. there's never been consensus within to agree before the recent conflict in russia with the enemy. and even now they haven't officially placed russia in their court documents as the enemy. and there's a good reason for that because frankly, there's still some, some reasonable, you know, stream thinking people in europe. i wish i could say the same about washington right now. this whole situation is one of the websites making. obviously,

nato keeps searching for a reason or nato reminds me in that sense of the scientists, us nuclear labord tories, who says the 1st discovery of nuclear winter back in the mid eighties, when global arsenals that build down from sort of the 70000 nuclear weapons down to the sort of mid below, teens of thousands of nuclear weapons decided to sort of put up with nuclear winter back in the eighty's because they still had a lot they could do and still maintain their pensions. these days, the threat from nuclear winter to the nuclear establishment, the nuclear weapons mafia. the big numer cartel is i like to call it. and that manufacturers, government depart. everyone involved is substantial because we can't afford to have tens of thousands of nuclear weapons around. we can't afford to have tens of hundreds and nuclear weapons around because we're this close to the apocalypse, even if nothing pops off in your brain. and in that sense, those, you know,

the los alamos national laboratory scientists are preserving their own careers. yeah, the same way that they know and it's infrastructure without a review, exists that that's the biggest problem in a very you've already kind of touched upon it. but you know, again, you know, the, the juxtaposition could not be more clear. i mean, nato is a business model. i mean it's, it's about generating budgets for expenditures, okay. on, on weapons that don't necessarily would have to work actually up again. but if you get a budget to get the next year's budget bigger than that, that one before. i mean, it's all about driving out there. it's preservation and waste thing. other people's money. okay. because i don't think the americans are going to send their big tanks there. you know why, because they'll be destroyed immediately after they cross the border and they know that, okay? but you know,

if you to promise out 50 tags and you gotta order 50 more tags, hey, everybody understand how this works. go ahead, christopher. i have to agree and actually was known chomsky years ago who said that that the only reason for nato survival afterwards was really to maintain and control world energy supplies. and so you look at all the words, don't forget, nato was involved in the overthrow of the government, the walmart gadhafi, and libya actively involved in destroying that country. actively involved on the ground with the u. s. effort now, forgot his son, providing support as part of coalitions for other campaigns of securing shipping lanes and things like that, against the quote unquote pirates and who knows what? so i think ultimately bear their purpose. and the way i see it is similar to how others have seen it, which is that as a, as an imperialist arm, it's sort of the imperialist armed forces of dis, the unipolar and hedge, a monic of global structure. so when you look at it in that sense,

you understand that as it continues to expand and don't forget, it's the only in europe. columbia is of quote, unquote, global partner of nato, dave der, trying to bring in other partners in, for example, oceania. so you're looking at this and you're saying this really is the global reach of when it might, christopher it was, isn't it really obvious to you? is that what the, what didn't these mandarins, the west they want to do? they wanted, they want a short circuit. the united nations, they want to have their own global coalition of the willing and, and nato doesn't want to have any or the united states. want to have any restraints put on it here. i think that's very much part of it. and i also agree, you're absolutely right all a great deal that is directed at energy here, that we're almost out of time here at ted, you know, as far as with a guy is out, you want to jump in, go ahead. what i just wanted to say that if i look at the peace movement in the west, in the fans or even germany, it's a char, or belgium. i mean, you know, the,

1st of all on them of course, the russian intervention and put in sort of between schools, et cetera. then they done them to some extent they to, but they never said latasha should do military security. and so most important, in my view for the security of the russian people who live in ukraine. i mean, either we are to believe that people in dumbass and he may actually want to be canyon under the present ukrainian hygiene and have been forced to be russian by ocean troops, which i think is totally unbelievable. or has we have to realize that these people should have rights? why should you chain a high door for in des, pronouncing the soviet union be sacrosanct? but the height of said that there was some of the russian people who have been putting a cane at the time of the soviets the addition of no heights whatsoever uses and make any sense. and as something which he stood in your bay. i've so cool anti war movements. well, yeah, parent, apparently i hear a rally. i think you're making reference to the united states if, if you, if you're against, are the more than your opponent puppet in your

a white supremacist. but tad, is it, the united states and nato countries are supporting, essentially, and least nazi elements in care of that? no one wants to talk about on the west. 3rd to we have 20 seconds. go ahead. ok. for 20 seconds worth of fun here. let's think when the west can do to make a difference in the, in the war in ukraine right now. is there something of value that nato has in europe, that it can give away in return for say, negotiations commencing between russia and ukraine for a peace settlement. we have to think really hard about this, but if it were me, i'd be looking at the nuclear gravity bombs with the us maintain in europe for no good reason. ok, that's and hang on a very depressing point. thank you. how to. alright gentlemen, and that's all the time we have a want to thank my guest, the intense media, paris and, and better shower. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here in our tv next time. remember, cross time news,

news, russia in the 21st century has taken several opportunities to try to see if there would be interested in the west to create new boundaries to create a new relationship. and as you mentioned, time and time and time again, it would get flatly rejected because we have sort of pushed freshly into this corner, ideologically attitude, way to say you're the adversary. you're the, we may not be in a formal bipolar ideological cold war anymore. but we're not going to allow a new relationship to develop with the

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with ah, russian troops with a wagner group leading the assault have taken over a key village north of the new radian. how are you almost further in circling, the city china has hold on the west to stop abusing unilateral sanctions and do their share in the escalating the ukraine crisis. same dialogue and negotiation are the only viable solution to the conflict. india takes the floor at the un general assembly saying the interests of both russia and ukraine must be respected to achieve peace. that says here, reject the possibility of speaking with moscow in an exclusive interview to going under ground renowned and.