it does she sense how then washington the people doing it thought this was in a bad idea. they gave the white house some options to maybe bluff or convince of putting at the cost is going to be very high. and but then when the white house, blue, bye talk publicly about this, within 3 weeks of the briefing information he got. and victoria lewis both within a 3 week period and late january, early february of last year. both said publicly, well, we know we can stop it and let me be, let me, let me. so the news kind of is, if, if a we will stop the north she wanted and the president was asked after he said that by reporters, it's a fame. it's all on tape with on a nightly news report said, well how will you do it? he said, let me tell you, we know how to do it. we can do it language like that. and at that point, the guys in the group were upset because it was supposed to be a covert operation. and by the time they finally, they did their job, they made it possible they, they planted the bombs with 8 of the navy divers and. and then it just sat there.

the bomb sat there for months was planted in june. but by wish, by so when, when the war look, you look like the ukrainians were doing ok by late september there was certainly evidence of a serious a serious issue. it wasn't gonna be a cakewalk for the ukrainians. like some people in the press road and as their point, the group that made it possible. understood that he did it for political purposes period. it's not going to help the war. and what it does, what he was doing it for was a prevent germany. and on western europe, if case, the winter came quickly from opening up the pipeline, the german government had they done the sanction they sought the pipeline. but the german government, the right to open up the new one. and that was wanted by by vests rational for the mission to make sure that in europe, in western europe keeps on funnelling, supporting nato, and keeps on falling arms into, into what is clearly a proxy war against russia. that's been fought right now. published on february 8th,

the report alleged the pipelines were mind by u. s. navy divers in june. last year, the journalist said washington used nato military drills as a cover for the operation with assistance from norway. according to the report, joe biden made the decision after 9 months of consultations with his security advisors. the claims have been denied by both washington and the e. u, with officials dismissing it as speculation and even fiction. for more revelations, from the men who previously exposed us war crimes in vietnam and iraq, you can watch the full interview with seymour hersh on going underground right here on our tea this saturday. those are the top stories that's our for more up to the minute updates head over to r t dot com. and don't forget to follow us on odyssey rumble. and gab, thanks for tuning in. we'll see a back at the top of the hour. ah,

[000:00:00;00] with hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered on peter lavelle. the great decoupling has finally occurred with russia. suspending is participation in the new start arms control treaty. russia and the west have gone their own separate ways and in the process, arms control appears to be dead in the water more troubling times. ahead with cross hocking decoupling, i'm joined by my guests head see intense mania. he's accompli, consultant and a retired u. s. foreign service officer in paris, we have job brick mall. he is

a political commentator and endure shot to we cross to christopher lee. he is a political analyst and researcher, or gentleman cross how close. in fact, that means you can jump any time he want. and i would appreciate was got a tenant tens mania 1st. ted, i mean what, you know, i'm, i'm sure all of you saw the 2 speeches, one that doug vladimir putin gave to the nation, an annual event. and bob biden's appearances in care of and in warsaw and you couldn't get more juxtaposed. ok, biden is on an ideological crusade, and it's not, there's no sense of cause causality. there is no context. there's not even really a goal. the rest of the russian president talked about why brushes in this conflict . it's about geo politics and security. and you can get more diverse than that. and this is one of the reasons why i think the west is misunderstanding why the conflict started in the 1st place. in white, it continues your thoughts, ted? well, i think, peter,

the problem that we continue to see is the west producers to listen to russia, has completely ignored russian red lines for many years now. and the real difficulty right at the moment, i believe, is unlike for us presidents who weren't listening to the president of the russian federation, we now want to can't listen because he's not mentally quite there. but so a very good point. they're generally the same, a question to you is that this is one of the reasons why this conflict is, is construed in a, in radically different ways. again, russia is talking about security in right before the conflict on december 17th, 2001 they said look, here's what we need. we need to talk about these things. and they were completely blown off by washington and by nato. and, and here we are. and that rush, his goal is to end this when it security is been assured, nobody in the west seriously wants to talk about the french president. it,

if it's an odd day or an even day, i can't really tell he flip flops back and forth here on this issue here. but until both sides can get on the same page, this conflict isn't going to come to an end. go ahead in paris. yes, where i think you have to, with this kind of thinking perspective in what happened over the 20th century, which is mostly the process of the colonization or di wished on his asian, it started in 1920 with the backward congress. and the appeal to the people of the ohio and we just launched by linen and devoted weeks coding for them to be decoded, eyes because he later evolution in new hope was impossible. and that certainly happy to people like notes. i don't know what you mean. and started the one about the process of the conversation. the 2nd stage was the bundle conference in indonesia, in 1955 and the beginning of the non aligned movement, which launched a new stage for the finance company,

the completion of decomposition in africa and elsewhere. and also the creation of down present would be independent boot from the companies block and then from the west and from the united states. and that went along her, the well aching. but of course, with the collapse of the soviet union. the western has had, you know, that i've been physically checks is to use the phrase used by studying during the quality zation, the game. dizzy with texas. they thought that the, this a new doesn't you're right in front of them and they're going to control the world . and that was, of course, the newly born via the there he couldn't use ation of part of the world and interventions in yugoslavia, architecture, etc. and now they have run into something really difficult, which is her show her show is that the ac is not here and even say it wasn't a success and even against them was not to success. but certainly crochet is much more resistant. and the main change due to the war, i don't want to, this goes to war. it says, is the

a personal and between the russia and china and the fact that the rest of the world, including india, which has been thursday to china for many years. and have good latin america and africans are, are getting closer to this new the sco busying axis. and then that of this is the most significant event of the last year in my view, if respective or was going on in the can you change the new need against it with that such an excellent point to me and the i'm in this program, israel about the coupling, but basically it's battle a battle of narrative. it full and christopher here, chris, way it's fascinating, went to john had to say, because this is the west continues to want to recreate the world and its own image and where and they had a brick wall when it came to rush, rush that now we're not going to go along with that and the rest of the world is taking a good part of the world is taking that q is that? no, we will not follow your rules based order. what other mumbo jumbo you want to throw

at us here. there is a breach, there's a significant breach here, and it's having a knock on effect. the global south is not reacting to the west wants. obviously, china is and, and india is a, is a wild card here. there's a lot of things in play right now. christopher, go ahead. basically, you have to look at the past the, you know, few decades to understand after the collapse of the soviet union. it's not like the u. s. and it's a utopian partners and nato, all of a sudden were, you know, going out and generous to the global south, and generous to others. instead, they did the opposite. they went on the warpath. they destroyed yugoslavia. they went to eventually into afghanistan, into iraq, into libya, and they've destroyed syria. they've gone through come this countries and just reeked havoc and devastation. so everybody else is watching this over the past few decades is saying, this is coming for us. not only russia and china, the dpr kate under, you know, 1st under kim's daniella, now under kim's, when they're watching. and they're saying,

absolutely not. we're not gonna believe that they have our legitimate interests, or that they care about our sovereignty and our territorial integrity. they don't, and so ultimately, over the past few decades, you know, vladimir putin has tried a persistently to call for negotiations to call for diplomacy to call for something to happen. and what you've seen is further encroachment further expansion by nato. and so, of course, russia has a, a, an important part in its national defense, its its national security, which is its strategic debt that can allow nato to come right to the border just within a few 100 kilometers of its capital. and it's major sites. so ultimately, when you're looking at this, when you're looking at the 2 speeches, you known is he to narratives, you see 2 completely different visions of the world. one under he gemini, of the west, one under u. s. u nato, imperialism, and the other with a new multiple, the world where people have respect or the sovereignty,

the territorial integrity and the internal affairs of all the respective countries . and is this public go ahead to head here, it. go ahead, jump in, john, go ahead. well, those, this week we, which is to do so, but the, this week the chinese i've heard he's a baby about germany. could you say all aspect of your urban american gemini has time to read. but just ending, i hope, via another cluster about that because that seem to be, well, we were reading my mind, let me go to teddy around this here. i mean, the rest of the world is watching how the united states deals. it's with, it's close out like germany and the north stream pipelines. i mean, if that's how america treats its bread and how is america and its allies go to treat pose. i mean that, that, that western media doesn't want to talk about it. you know, it seems her, she's the greatest living journalist of our time and he's being ignored by the new york times by the way, where he used to work here. but that event blowing up those pipelines is good. it

has ramifications that i think even the people in the white house have no idea what their bud unleashed. ted go ahead. peter, i'll be the 1st to say that say more heard, haven't got everything he's written correct in a long and always interesting career. but at this time, i've worked with j. sullivan. i've worked with toria new and everything he wrote. that's true to me. i think he got this one right. and i know he got it right. but the fact that it's now a public source and available to people without sort of hiding behind classifications means that the narrative is crumbling at light speed. pretending that it was anyone other than united states special courses that went in and did this act of destruction. and damaged europe for decades to come. thank you very much. you can safely ignore everyone. you can safely ignore the official narrative . the truth is out. yeah, well, christopher, i mean, this was an active international terrorism. okay. i mean, and we in ok if, if,

if the united states didn't do it then who did it's kind of like the o. j. simpson trial. ok. i mean, if he didn't kill his ex wife and then who did ok, christopher. i think of 1st and foremost, you know, now that sy hersh has written this article, we've been saying it for, for months now, yet we've been saying that this did, that there was no possibility, no way that russia spend billions of dollars to create this pipeline. and to, and use it as part of their diplomacy, irreproachable with europe, the building, the mutual a sort of agreements and success of all of the entire continent. and all of a sudden they're going to go and destroy their own pipeline. it doesn't make sense . but of course, instantly you know, part of this, the reality that we're now living in, we were the one spreading misinformation and disinformation, quote, unquote, we were the one spreading. you know, we're kremlin propaganda. it wasn't prevalent propaganda. and it isn't. it's just of the ality that russia would not do this. it's not within, it is just out of the bounds of, of what would be realistic. and now that sy hersh has written this,

i think it's taking the lead off of a dis, a cocktail that, that the west is, is making in their mainstream media. and people are finally seeing and waking up and saying maybe maybe we're being duped, not only on north stream by blank, but on everything in french and connected with a variety of issues, whether be the operation ukraine, or for example, the balloon going over the u. s. as my balloon a bridge where you really just go ahead, we have 40 seconds before we go to the break. i had jump. we go. do you remember the day mind or how bill, stephanie, god, god, during the sending the start time. yeah, i mean was, we were even condemned by the international court of justice and they never paid operation. that's pure gang stories and they used to do it to the south and other do it to you. oh, well, i mean it, all 3 of you in our audience here was weapons of mass destruction. does that ring any bells or anyone here? i mean, if they light about that then the, then they and we have to safely assume that they lie about

a whole lot of things. maybe about everything we'll go. we'll ask head when we come back from the break because he used to work in the belly of the beast itself, or a gentleman. we're going to go to a short break after that short break. we'll continue our discussion on decoupling st. with ah ah, i think russia in the 21st century has taken several opportunities to try to see if there would be interested in the west to create new boundaries to create a new relationship. and as you mentioned, time and time and time again, it would get flatly rejected because we have sort of pushed fresh into this corner, ideologically attitude. to say, you're the adversary, you're the, we may not be in a formal bipolar ideological cold war anymore. but we're not going to allow

a new relationship to develop with i rick sanchez and i am here to plead with you. whatever you do, do not watch my your show seriously. why watch something that's so different. my list of opinions that you won't get anywhere else. look, if it pleases you to have the state department, the cia weapons makers, multi $1000000000.00 corporations, choose your facts for you. go ahead. i change and whatever you do. don't watch my show stay mainstream because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called direct impact, but again, you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change the wing thing. ah, welcome back across stock where all things are considered on peter bell to remind

you we're discussing decoupling. okay, let's go back to ted in tanzania. had you said something quite tantalizing in the 1st part of the program that you've worked with the likes of jake sullivan and you believe that they were very much involved in this on this plan to destroy the pipelines? can you give us a little bit? i mean, that's kind of a tease and not very fair to me. are viewers explain yourself? well, let's just say that everything that hers wrote about the 2 of them being involved with the planning and execution of this operation rings true. having seen them in action when i was with the u. s. mission at nato. okay, well that, that, that's not a lot of detail, but we're gonna take your word on it. okay. i me go back to christopher christopher . you know, that there's this all this talk i, i look at the pages of, you know, like, responsible, say craft anti war dot com, even american conservative and their talk to they talk about an a,

some kind of negotiated and what is there to negotiate. i mean, rush has already made it clear what it wants to have happen. and until the west reacts to that, i don't understand what these negotiations are all about. and oh, by the way, i cease fire. well, why would brush you agree, agree to a ceasefire? so nato can build up ukraine again, and they do in 5 years from now. i mean, on the, you know, you know, one of the, all 3 of you, you know, and really disappoints me, is that a lot of smart people over the last year of said really stupid things. i expected more from them. christopher, go ahead. now i would, i would say that you're absolutely correct and not only that, but it put and has been and the russian government and leverage have been saying this for, for years and years. nobody's been listening. russia's security concerns have been at the forefront of all of their major speeches of all their diplomatic overtures and it hasn't been acted upon. and the reason is that the u. s. and nato are not really concerned, and not really in any way,

really to give even an inch to the russians because that's not part of the war machines plan. because you need to have the enemy, you need to have, and russia is the longer communist russia is no longer the soviet union. but you see how they reproduce this language. now they reproduce it because they need that enemy because their stockholders in these a big military industrial complex, you know, corporations, they need it, they need it because they need to make more armaments. more missiles were planes, more ships, whatever they need. so i think ultimately when you're looking at this, what negotiation, what's settlement, what ceasefire can come from a conflict where one site does not respect the national security interest of the other side, nor it's overtures in saying, we don't want a belligerent the terry alliance at our border that is a relic of the cold work when we disbanded the other part of that military alliance . you know, the one in opposition to it. it doesn't make sense. there can be no negotiation. no settlement of this current crisis unless the,

the u. s. and nato and the european partners take seriously russia's security concerns, an advocate for a ukraine that won't join nato, that will be neutral. and that won't be a breeding ground for all of the things that are being concocted in washington and in brussels and in the halls of power in the wes english under here. if, if we're going to put our money on annually to bear bach, i think we're all in really big trouble. okay. is on the, it was interesting a go to a new cycles ago, the former vice president of the united states pence was on fox news. and he referred to russia as the soviet union, and that's just the problem. they keep saying. they still think in that paradigm, they think in a cold war paradigm here. and i could tell you living here for a quarter of century, they have dispensed with that paradigm. completely, it's the west that continues to embrace it. go ahead in paris. working there is one continuing during the soviet union. is that the current version not,

not yours in the us. there aren't a gym and they can, they don't, she, they're not like the safety of a unipolar world. and the soviet union was against it too. and that's what made it popular in the rest of the world to some extent. and i think it's also what makes russia popular in the us of the world to some extent, because they did the lead of the vote of the global south against this uniform world is america in the gym or native american exceptionalism. it's a traitor. so i think that's in don't think there is a continued de heater, the snow continued d as well. so, so can i make of the political system is concerned? but there's this mentality which i, i must say, praise the russians. well, is that the project is a jim american hegemony was the europeans of the western european at least embrace . but then of course, that they're taking is the, the main, the main continuity, if you wish and demand. he's of his intent hostility to her show that we have in the west. well, i think there's other, another continuity, it's western had gemini,

that has not changed here at 180. and looking at what's coming out of the administration in the intern from our un nato smelted berg, i mean, they're sending out a really a wide array of messages. there's no more ammunition, we don't know how much more aid we can give. but then there are biden is saying, as long as it takes still, and it seems to me that there's the messaging is getting kind of sloppy on their part because it's, it's the, the, the, that the narrative is beginning to crack your thoughts. go ahead. ted. absolutely. agree, peter, i think there's a note of desperation creeping into their messaging. quite frankly, in nato. we're dealing with something that shouldn't have existed one minute longer than the soviet union. it's never had a purpose after the end of the soviet union. it never will have a purpose. everything they try and come up with is, is frankly a nonsense. there's never been consensus within a to agree before the recent conflict in russia with the enemy. and even now they

haven't officially placed russia in there or document said the enemy. and there's a good reason for that because frankly, there's still some, some reasonable, you know, stream thinking people in europe. i wish i could say the same about washington right now. this whole situation is one of the websites making. obviously, nato keeps searching for a reason. natal reminds me in that sense of the scientists, us nuclear laborin tories to since the 1st discovery of nuclear winter back in the mid eighties when global arsenal is built down from sort of the 70000 nuclear weapons down to the sort of mid below teens of thousands of nuclear weapons decided to sort of put up with nuclear winter back in the eighty's because they still have a lot they could do and still maintain their pensions. these days, the threat from nuclear winter to the nuclear establishment, the nuclear weapons mafia. the big numer cartel is i like to call it. and manufacturers, government,

depart. everyone involved is substantial because we can't afford to have tens of thousands of nuclear weapons around. we can't afford to have tens of hundreds in nuclear weapons around because we're this close to the apocalypse, even if nothing pops off in the, in the brain. and in that sense, those, you know, the los alamos national laboratory scientists are preserving their own careers. yeah, the same way that they know, and it's infrastructure without a reason that that's the biggest problem. very, you've already kind of touched upon it, but you know, again, you know, the, the, just, the position could not be more clear. i mean, nato is a business model. i mean it's, it's about generating budgets for expenditures, okay. on, on weapons that don't necessarily would have to work actually up again. but if you get a budget to get the next year's budget bigger than that, that one before. i mean,

it's all about driving out there. it's preservation and wasting other people's money. okay. because i don't think the americans are going to send their big tanks there. you know why, because they'll be destroyed immediately after they cross the border. and they know that ok, but you know, if you to promise all 50 tags and you had to order 50 more tanks. hey, everybody understand how this works? go ahead, christopher. i have to agree and actually was the known chomsky years ago who said that the only reason for nato survival afterwards was really to maintain and control world energy supplies. and so you look at all the words, don't forget, nato was involved in the overthrow of the government of wal mart. could duffy and libya actively involved in destroying that country. actively involved on the ground with the u. s. effort now, forgot his son, providing support as part of coalitions for other campaigns of securing shipping lanes and things like that, against the quote unquote pirates and who knows what?

so i think ultimately bear their purpose. and the way i see it is similar to how others have seen it, which is as a, as an imperialist arm, it's sort of the imperialist armed forces of dis, the unipolar and hedge monica global structure. so when you look at it in that sense, you understand that as it continues to expand and don't forget it's only in europe . columbia is of quote, unquote, global partner of nato, dave der, trying to bring in other partners in, for example, oceania. so you're looking at this and you're saying this really is the global reach of well, but christopher was, isn't it really obvious to you? is that what the, what didn't these mandarins, the west they want to do? they wanted, they want to short circuit the united nations. they want to have their own global coalition of the willing and, and nato doesn't want to have any or the united states. want to have any restraints put on it here. i think that's very much part of it, and i also agree you're absolutely right. all

a great deal that is directed at energy here, that we're almost out of time here at ted, you know, as far as what a guy is. yeah, you want to jump in, go ahead. what i just wanted to say that if i look at the peace movement in the west, in the fans or even germany, it's a char, or belgium. i mean though, the 1st of all condemn, of course, the russian intervention and put in so between slows et cetera. then they done them to some extent they to but they never said latasha should do military security. and so most important, in my view for the security of the russian people who live in ukraine. i mean ido, we are to believe that people in dumbass and she may actually want to be canyon under the present ukrainian hygiene and have been forced to be russian by ocean troops, which i think is totally unbelievable. or has we have to realize that these people should have rights? why should you chain the height of independence in the soviet union be sacrosanct? but the height of said that there were some of the russian people who have been putting

a cane at the time of the soviets the addition of no heights whatsoever uses and make any sense. and that's something we stood it in your bay. i've so cool anti war movements. well, yeah, up here. apparently i hear a rally. i think you're making reference to the united states. if, if you, if you're against, are the more than your opponent puppet in your a white supremacist but tad, it, the united states and nato countries are supporting, essentially, and least nazi elements in care of that. no one wants to talk about on the west. 3rd to we have 20 seconds. go ahead. okay, i'm here for 20 seconds worth of fun here. let's think what the west could do to make a difference in the, in the war in ukraine right now. is there something of value that nato has in europe that it could give away in return for, say, negotiations commencing between russia and ukraine for the settlement. we have to think really hard about this, but if it were me, i'd be looking at the nuclear gravity. bombs with us, maintains, in europe for no good reason. ok, that's and hang on

a very depressing point. thank you. health. alright gentlemen, that's all the time we have a want to thank my guest, intense media, parents and, and their shower. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are the see you next time. remember, cross stuck with ah, with for what happens when you make digital gains with the actual physical sport? something like digital. yeah, there's yes. because on is preparing to host the 1st ever gains of the future. a

cyber context with a physical dimension. one of the innovators, eager to study at all, is on the verge of redefining sports and gaming. he tells us what's behind this synergy, and if it's the future with shapes with the wagner group leading the assaults have taken over a village, north of ukrainian, held on almost colson on his back, much further and circling. the city finally called on the west to stop abusing unilateral sanctions on to do this in the escalating the war and ukraine plain dialogue. negotiations are the only viable solution to the conflict. also on the program and an interview to going underground or renowned investigative journalist seymour hersh, breaks down the alleged us some thoughts of the notes in pipelines that she recently exposed in a bombshell report. this be denied by washington. that's the rationale for the mission to make sure that europe and my senior keeps. i'm funneling supporting nato