control the people with fear and to be able to have the opportunity to invade other countries. and do you think though, do you think that, you know, you said the oil was so important for going into iraq, do you really think oil? was that important for going in know in the year 2000 there were 7 countries who did not join the us central bank and look 2001 afghan. then 2003, iraq, 2011, livia and syria. then after that. yeah. teacher, you know, just makes me think that is a motive for invading a country. you mentioned these countries here who essentially got invaded over the past 20 odd years. general wesley clark near forced our general that he, he came out, he actually started talking publicly about this, didn't he said i, i came up, a commander came into my office one day through a stack of papers on my table and said, we're going to meet evading 5 countries and 7 years or something like that,

wasn't it? right. so you know the story as well. just briefly. but it's interesting for me because 911 happened. we knew it was osama bin laden and al qaeda in afghanistan. we started in afghanistan, 2001, and then we switch to iraq. that's a big question that i believe american citizens who live in natal allied countries. you know, we need to start asking questions. why was that? we're still coverage all the anniversary throughout the day here on our to international. you can find more details on the human and economic costs of the attack on iraq on our website. archie dot com ah

well, nice fiddler well is on call. so call my colleague lewis, and she will be with you at the top of the hour. i'm only with hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm funeral about is any in the conflict in ukraine on the agenda? maybe china has offered a proposal. it appears that you k, france, and germany are sounding out as a lensky regime on a proposal of their own. all will come to nothing if russia's interests are not respected. ah.

to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess martin j america. she's an award winning journalist and commentator. and in budapest we have george semi while he's a podcast, or at the gaggle which can be found on youtube and locals. are a gentleman crossed up rules and effect, that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate it. i start out with george in budapest, georgia, you know, is peace in the air. i mean, there piece proposals coming out now that you know, the chinese have come, come out with a 12 point program. what's coming out of the u. k. france and germany is a bit unclear, but it is being, it's making the rounds that there was sounding out as i said in my interest action is zalinski regime on how to move forward. i think there's some kind of reckoning going on here, but it doesn't mean it's going to end. well, hear your thoughts on both proposals, other proposals or proposals,

which george i did give away the punchline in a moment. the striking thing about requote it from the wall street journal about this you k for germany, proposal is that there is no one sentence, not one word about russia's security concerns. so it will talk about, well, what, what, what can we do to provide some security for ukraine, and how do we mount a early offensive by zalinski so that he can be put in a stronger position. well that, that go, she ations and can we liberate all of that done by a dumbass? leave me a for a later date. there's nothing, not one word about what this conflict has been all about. why russia launched this last year, which is russia security concerns, and there isn't,

i have no idea of isn't that, you know now was this because of the lease report as it will say journal, was it because of the leaders of the nato allies. but as long as they don't consider russia problems or issues, russia has been raising for many years about nato expansion and about guarantees that have some kind of marriage, not just something that well, we'll say something today, and then we'll change our minds more then. and there isn't going to be any kind of a piece negotiations. the chinese proposals were interesting and well, largely displaced by nato countries are interesting. that's the one was the lender himself knows. the latest, i think, is trying to think that he can charm his way anywhere and that he could get a meeting was easing pain and he can persuade things to come over the side.

otherwise, i don't think to be honest that the chinese proposals are going to go anywhere either. i guess you would need some script writers from, from washington in london to pull that rabbit. is martin. let's stay with the chinese one because i agree with george here. part of it and i'm way to read part of your country should quote, prevent block confrontation. i think we know that that's a reference to a nato and work towards building quote, a balance effective and sustainable european security architecture. that's exactly what george was talking about. learn yeah, i think the real problem here is even though western elise, beginning to realize that they need to start looking at a solution for ukraine. they're taking so long about stepping in this direction. you know, you talk about the script writers full scale. i think we need to script writers

with dumb and dumber or c. call for sure. so macro, because the kind of statements that are coming from these comes are just incredible . absolutely astounding. i mean, how turn death of the situation can you be? it seems that both of these slater's can agree on one thing they want. now, a deadline, they want something set in progress for peace talk. so they seem to agree on a fundamental position which we haven't had before. the news is, the landscape is the problem. that's what they've agreed on bus reading in between the line just so this guy isn't moving in direction. we need to move in. but you talk about about to ask his problems. what i think is interesting is that the west front, some nominates, they have their own problems. and what we're witnessing now is a shift towards this narrative of we need to get a piece process moving and moving quite quickly because macro and show. so thinking

about their own political back thinking about their own comes and how much longer the situation go on for because you have now a key date coming up, which is 2024 that seems like a long way away. but the binding count was recognized from the summer onwards. he's going to have to start campaigning, even going to places like flint, where she's afraid of catchy, also supporting disease in front. and he's going to explain to humble americans who are struggling to eat or even survive, why he hasn't pumped under the billions of dollars into jobs of cur rose hospitals instead of funding a war in a country which they can't find a map of the world. so you've got this dichotomy of logic going on, i think, between landscape and the west and europe. the pins look at the problem slightly differently from macro and shows, but i mean show, says so tone, death is so out of touch. reality is it just recently visited brazil, so have

a good rest countries. ok. they could stir up some sort were taken ism against russia from those countries. i mean, what time is this going on? you know, obviously the backside is going to go to georgia right now. but, you know, we're talking about peace proposals and because we record reported by the journal that the, the, the british, the french and the germans are sounding out the lensky. but i mean, buying was in, in kev. okay. and in warsaw when some of the most bombastic language that we've heard from a long time from a, a man that just can't really deliver it anymore. you know, so who cares what they are being leaders have to say. i mean, it's so interesting is the one of the biggest loser and all this is europe. i mean, you still traveling around the world while the americans alleged by seymour hersh, destroy his pride, his pride and joy, a fueling german economy. thus,

the european economy. i have to re with martin, it is a bit delusional, but really, who cares what peace proposals come out of western capital? it has to come out of washington. don't know exactly right, and this is what, what is still astonishing. and it's particularly when it comes to germany, germany, the economic powerhouse a, which is their pride and joy that they come. this great. a global economic power is being jeopardized openly contemptuous. they by the united states. and you have to wonder about the german public. everything, you know, even a stand for this, are you that tolerate, essentially being relegated to kind of a 2nd class. this is as an economic power a seemingly they are. and what's interesting about the, you know, what i mean, you just said that the americans are the ones who are the driving force folders. and as long as they can ignore every piece proposal, they can go on a whipping out their checkbook. and this is another $10000000000.00,

and then they can ignore all of the proposals coming out of your ability to read, doesn't matter what shows my wrong or what else. and, you know, not one to carry out. there is if the british decide to join forces with the french and the germans, and that's why i thought, well then maybe something interesting here. when i, when i saw the headlight, the british of now joined the french germans because i think the americans and might be isolated. but as i said earlier, i, you know, i don't think there's anything here that would be of any interest, but the americans could pull the, plug them zelinski at any time. and so that all this talk about, well, we go, you know, we, you know, we, we, everything is, depends on zalinski and, you know, we, you know, he's war and we don't know. nothing depends on zillow and everything depends on washington. because it's washington just simply has given him his open checkbook in martin, it's been following on what georgia said there. i mean, this is a case of moral hazard. i mean, events, he has no inkling until alienation whatsoever to change what's going on. now,

i mean, look, as you said, when biting goes on the campaign, you know, he's going to be asking, why are you paying the pensions of ukrainians? why are you paying for their health care? why are you paying for everything else? i mean, we, we, everyone knows this incident that happened in ohio. i mean, the stark contrast. there is a parent for all to see. so i, i don't see zalinski. i mean, if it's all, you know, nothing about zalinski without zelinski. i don't see he has any reason to change his behavior right now. the checks. okay. continue to come in. exactly. and i think that's really the key point. i'm george's point, this is a fascinating mom. you know, there is no real impetus yet, but it could be, and i think it some pretty fascinating. but the, when you boil down the essence, what micron and shoots are saying to slootsky, which it could be we could because we could be forgiven for making walk river of poke creating levity of it. because it is an errors in the respect that the french

and germans are sanctioned. zakowski look, we need you to move towards a, some sort pistols with russia and to encourage you to do that. what we're proposing to do is give you a whole ton load more of guns and ammo and cache, and whatever you need. because that would actually help you negotiate and also describe what your viewers understand essentially everything up to nato membership . so some kind of security arrangement, a lot more cast and a lot more weapons. ok, so martin, so isn't as lensky except that, but why would the russians, except ahead of me, i gotta talk to the russians. and that's the that's is what makes this of a mockery of everything. keep going. market. i think i've been it been ab rushed out of the equation, but i don't think that will last too long. i think it may be media doing that media plays a big role here, but for the moment, you know, and then ski has no real incentive. what i think could happen. and, and,

and i think some certain corners of summer list, but alluded to this is, i think at a certain point that relationship is things zelinski on europe is going to run him to difficult wrong to run to rough horses. and it's already happened. you can see the that there are some indications of this already, but i think the, at a certain point they do, i feel quite wrong because i think the europeans are in a very strong position. because finally, it will be sure, so no matter who can actually say to lensky, look, we've had enough of this. if you don't play along and take our proposal seriously, we may well actually cut funding to you. we might actually reduce the counter your point in shields goes ro, but they always have and only to better buck in washington will, will promote regime change in germany, georgia. i'm not crazy. they could do that now that they absolutely will do that. i

mean, the americans of been very, very wary about sure. so the beginning, you know, as, as this talk about many times before, the americans have never trusted. the germans, social democrats, going back to the 1950s through the seventy's with billy brown's and how, which way through to the, to thousands with gaps road. they just don't like the social democratic and they would love to see the back of shoals. and you know, we saw how contemptuously they treated trolls. so lena bear book is very much the person they have in mind. a few words will have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on real estate with our team. ah ah

ah, welcome back to cross. not all things are considered non peter labelle. this is a home addition to remind you, we're discussing some real lives. ah! let's go back to martin america learning attorney interesting. the, the, the medias of blood with allegations that china has already been or may start supplying arms to show russia. i see no indication the russian needs arms, but ok, these are the media stories. are also this ridiculous talk about russia and china getting closer together. is it that suddenly appeared to some people? this is something that's been going on for very long time, and i find it really astounding mainstream you. oh my goodness, you know,

they're very much asleep at the wheel here. okay. i did it in one more thing here. i think it was in munich and the chinese foreign minister. he was challenged by our old favorite child joseph brow. the foreign policies are on the european union. and he said, you know, it's, we crossing one of the red lines of china supplied arms to, to russia. and he said, when you supply affirms the ukraine, so what is the difference? he said, a very big difference and apparently ran for the door, didn't answer what that difference it's mark. when all these anything remarkable about worldly? just not replying to, i'm just a grocer. question say we are going union circle foreign policy. i think this is a major story. i mean, i hate to keep how much media because i'm a journalist, but i do think it's a me to start. i think this is a real story about how selective western media is when it touches china. you know, it just roots out all the new,

susan sticks of the cliches from the beginning. it isn't really a story at all, but china is staying in beds with russia and getting involved in the arms race which has been created by the west from just just a few weeks ago. if you remember the panic that we experienced over tanks. thanks for the new subject and tanks, american tanks and german times leopold 2 tanks of 2 tanks and the, and the british challenge of things is all become a big story which we haven't heard about much in the last few weeks because no one believes it. no one believes by them will ever get round descending. abraham's m one saying it must be does what numbers you talking about? i still think of something stupid. i mean, i don't really make any sense. i think china is a media story, i think has been distorted like other tea stories which have been secured and distorted, to sit to fit a certain narrative. the main one for me is the panic will be seen between biden's come and landscape just a few years ago. so leslie was in washington,

what was it doing there? well, i think it was being brief, bye bye to telling him to get move on to certain things. i don't think it to that very seriously. it seems the bible was affected by this and felt the need to send a few key officials just a landscape and in namely guns to see a director, to a firm a point which to the credit. and this really aims me submit this, but what post actually did report they did actually write in a rather new and hybrid article, which probably few people read. they actually did make the point the, the button administration is delivering. the message is landscape, which is that you haven't got too much time. and the reason why you haven't got too much time to go ahead and achieve any other gains of the american. so to make on the battlefield is because i lean republicans in america are given by an a coded message that you are spending spree now with, with, with ukraine. but it can't continue. we're not saying we're going to cut it. we

won't agree to the huge amounts that we signed off before. now we're house, uncertain buying has transmitted this message to the graders. and basically you said you've gone to some of the end of summer because then things start getting really difficult. you're going through kids at a phenomenal rate. i mean, this is a record breaking. you know, this is military records being broken share the amount of kid that he goes for is just unbelievable. no one can, no one knows where it goes, where ends up. but i mean, it's not clear, it's even being used on the front. ok. it's a clear ok with got a ga, ga, ga mean the. ringback you learn make some very smart point here, but the rhetoric is not changing the benefit of doubling down on the rhetoric. but then we have all this background stuff, you know, you know, time is running out. you have to be, we have to make a case, you know, that can go that can exist side by side for too much longer. george?

no, i, i do think that the americans, as always, i hedging their bets, you know, they're, they're talking out of both sides of them out. so you have on the one hand, you have biden doing the whole gung ho thing in the also and, and then you have the, the lead the stories for the washington post that way. if this turns out, well hey, it was all because we, we, we, how often we show in what's, was it, things don't turn out well, we can blame it on zillow and see what we jones, and it needs to get off. so it's something for everyone. americans always do this is always the sort of the hard liners on the soft line is, and then, you know, you take your pick depending on how it works. but going back to your point about china, or instantly, the friendship between russia and china, you know, goes back to the yelton era. i mean that's, that's when they're ready they, it began and it was obviously an expression that

a russian weakness vulnerability they needed to find an ally. and this has been growing in strength the year of the year. now some people have woken up to this and say, well, look, several russia, china, a very close. we need to split them up, or what have you going to neither side as the slightest interest? well, i better join forces with the americans against the chinese, you know, that's, that's a really good idea. well, that's a great strategy. and on top of it, martin with news reports that more advisors are going to taiwan. and so blink and wants to challenge his chinese counterpart about rules based order and all this and the chinese have to say, why are you putting more advisors, technicians, whatever. where you want to use on taiwan, which you the united states recognize as part of china. ok, so why would the chinese have any interest in changing course right now when they

see on their flag table, ryan are rattling and that's something they take very seriously mark. yeah, and i think that chinese are probably more than the well, the most countries of that brother unsafe re mention of obama when we're referring to joe biden, which applies totally to biden's foreign policy initiatives since taking office. you know, don't underestimate your binds ability to slip on top of the racing. of course, you know, name one foreign policy initiative, but by them can actually say nails done good here. you might ne, pipelines actually, and a lot of voters will resonate with a lot of them. we'll, we'll, we'll connect with that because that show in the arms, the american economy that created growth, that created jobs. and i get the longer term when we look at the foreign policy layer, you know, wherever boyden goes, he usually messes things up, you know? and i wonder whether the tie one story is really a me to distraction,

to shift the media narrative now away from ukraine. from august, september, october onwards, where things are gonna get really tough in ukraine when these tanks, even if they arrives in, they're not gonna make any real difference. i mean, if you're into an institution now and you're talking to your general generals surely must be planning the spring offensive. because as an option to that was a gap that, you know, and i wrote about it from western media who, you know, military people, journalists, are much better informed than i am talking about is pretty offensive. and so i think this is really spooking up. i just, you know, he's go account down now from the summer onwards to being re elected and come that time is not on his side. you know, and when, when the stories turn against him in ukraine, i think a will be looking for a new story on the shore on policy circuit. and china and taiwan seems to be right . particularly when britain is helping him so much on mission to serve or,

or maybe we'll have another spat of balloons. who knows? i'm sure that that was another one of those interesting came roaring. yeah, we have been fascinated in george. so you don't have talked about this on our podcast. um if it really was democrat versus republican, if it was really conservative versus liberal in one to win. oh, it's still, it's biden's war. it's going badly. it's very, very expensive. and i'm you and i have been bewildered by this forever. okay. because it is biden's war. he has a tendency to, you know, what with foreign policy. it's a no brainer, but it shows, but it really shows it will say the current and away and you can see the unified whole. they are the unit party, the war party and the military industrial complex. their interest is beyond politics. go ahead, georgia is exactly right. the republicans in is i have an open goal and they, and they, they don't seem to be able to just take the whole, you know, it's there,

right. this is not you just not get over the line. yeah. it's quite shorter because we know that had it been the other way around, and trump for president, the listeners was going on in ukraine. the democrats will be saying this is, trump's, was, this is a, but he said, you know, the republicans are kind of, you know, all over the place. and that's because they have this act of this, the attitude toward russia. then they said they simply, you know, to them, you know, even though they disliked by the, you know, they buy them and everything, but the somehow, you know, rushes to lean bottom ent of evil, and the best that they can come up with. well, biden should have sent the weaponry sooner. he should have done more earlier. he should have been tough. that's. that's why we're rated by was weak as this other now finally come up with the how to answer the question. yeah it's, it's bite and so he was to, we should make great approaches, whatever it is he was supposed to make clear to prove it. and that's,

and that's it. and that's why i think republicans will fail to exploit because as martin said, yeah, i mean things could really blow up in a bind in space. and in way, electra, he should be punished. the republicans are just simply go to bundle it. ok, but let me know one minute left here are the, even though i, the republicans will continue to go along with bites of ukraine policy. i don't think that's going to be the case in europe because we just have these massive protests in berlin over the last new cycle. there. it's more than rhetoric and this is, this is every day live life in germany wasn't supposed to cost you when it comes to eggs and, and cappuccinos and going out in the evening. now it is last 45 seconds to yeah, life is getting tougher and it takes a while. so the average man street to understand the dynamics of the huge issue, the current 100 effects is book it eating those just gone through the roof 34 times

in the u. k. for example, i've mentioned before in the u. k, we have pension, now freezing to death apartments, germany dummies, economy. i think this week economist said it is now officially in recession. and a lot of german companies announce shocking to america to set up companies that just to stay in the game. but, you know, i don't, i think it come to europe is going to be the problem soon or not sure. i mean, these people kind of hang on so much longer. and i think micron shows quite sensitive to that. they do understand that the time is running out for them. but i think also, i wonder, we talked about republicans in america unbounded. i wonder if the nightmare scenario for j a bunch of leading up to presidential elections is that it becomes a one issue price, which is then that that's a question for another program we've run out of time or when it gets america in budapest, when i think our viewers are watching us here at ortiz the next time. remember,

cross top roles. ah, a vocal issue. my, for the mobile one, annual g d. p per capita is about $4000.00 euros. a washer, a coffee seal with for them on the line to come out. a little thought would have thought of unemployment is off the chance. moldova territorial integrity and sovereignty. we respect the country which enjoys financial support from the u. s. n. b, you is constantly wrought by political and corruption scandals. but all that didn't

stop mobile, you can do the filters in 2022. i headlines right now. what else has an optional early result in coming from nigeria as presidential election, the ruling party candidate and merging on top in the south western state of a t t or the opposition candidate wins the majority in the state of intimate raging battles and gone by the front lines our team follows russian artillery crews very close to the combat zone. also, the german chancellor show speaks to convince the prime minister and arrange modi to side with the west against russia. the indian leader refrains from condemning moscow saying new delia is ready to contribute to a peace.