and it is depriving us of our traditional values. the west has assured us that they would bring democratic standards to moldova like freedom of speech. but in reality, the authorities have closed 6 channels. what freedom of speech are we talking about when a significant number of opposition leaders have been imprisoned? there was not any freedom of speech. all those western values are simply fictional . wasn't top. deborah might say, gay laboratory has arrived in new delhi for a meeting of 4 ministers of the group of 20 major economies. the conference is set to begin in the indian capital in the coming hours. laboratories excited to meet with an indian counterpart to discuss strengthening bilateral 5, particularly in the economic sphere in there is a major purchaser. russian commodities, particularly oil, this white pressure from western powers over the ukraine conflict. as expected to

be a big issue to be discussed at the g 20 meeting, the congress is officially to focus on developing multilateral collaboration throughout the world. while they're out of this news, our padilla val is on core folk next all the back up with with hello in. welcome to cross stock. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. is it time to talk? it would seem so the west rhetoric is at odds with hard realities on the ground in ukraine. the chinese have presented a proposal and it is believed the u. k. france and germany are cobbling together a plan for zalinski. what are they willing to talk? russia?

the cross stocking piece proposals, i'm joined by my guess i know 10 in beijing, he's a senior fellow at the institute as well as the chairman of asia narratives and parents. we have a shots up here. he is professor ameritas at the school for advanced studies at social sciences and in new mexico. we have come home and he is a professor of asian and global history at new mexico state university. are a gentleman, cross type roles and a fact that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. i want to talk about the european proposal here, and i want to talk about the chinese one. i'm for the repeat when jock, i'm going to go to you 1st in paris. so we have the u. k. france and germany talking to you crane about a possible settlement. essentially boils down to get as much land as you possibly can by summer, early fall and will fill you up as much arms as you can carry. i don't understand

how that is any kind of proposal at all, but that's what the media is telling us here. it doesn't make any sense and it doesn't bring peace to europe, but that's what we're told they're pushing. does it make any sense to you? go ahead and paris. well, i'm actually not abdel enough or are we nose out as a french government? or of course i add are always a said zat are only negotiations good. and as he swore bird, he also said that negotiations add to be decided by ers the ukrainian side. and irv so far we are see absolutely new ah. and no sign or from keith as that the ukrainian o want to go over to a negotiation, or at least if they want to go to a negotiation, it's only on the, it is of a complete withdrawal of russian forces. and this is not,

of course a solution. now what we can see is zed is this is, or it's mounting a, grew wing fatigue of the war in europe and most lean barry's. or maybe landon a, certainly in berlin and all so acknowledgement that the military forces are all for european or nato members are new, more or less exhausted. and we had a civil speeches made by high ranking and military officers, are bossing, bullying, and in london. seeing that as their own armies are now completely depleted of any shell of reserves and indices, probably the same situation in paris. so i think that there is all, su, erm,

and believe a acknowledgement, a zat a each time now to just because in europe and members of nato will not sustain a ukraine any more. well, okay, read can. if i go to an in new mexico here, or what happened to, as long as it takes whatever it takes, all the rhetoric coming out of the biden administration. because react them facts on the ground below belie than the kind of a um victory rhetoric that, that, that has been going on for over a year. now. i mean, and on top of it, can it, you know, the european proposal doesn't really involve talking to russia. so what is this campaign negotiation if one of the main parties is not part of the negotiations as it were, go ahead, can sure. i think that, that, you know, there's 2 things that we're touching on here. one is of course that that president binds recent visitors to cave and hannah, his,

i sort of pep rally and paula. these i think are not signs of you know, the anything for ever our attitude. but these are sort of desperate attempts to try to assure up the situation. i tried to manipulate the european allies into that continuing to maintain the supports, the support which is directed not at an actual resolution of the conflict but which is directed ad kind of perpetual war. ready the goal of which is to try to bleed russia to damage russia to inflict as much harm as they can rather than carrying about the interests of either the russian or the ukrainian people. as for the proposals that we're looking at today, you know, i, i agree with jack that the, you know, these, these, these rumors are the stories that are circulating about possible initiatives coming out of france or germany or even britain are really about serious efforts to resolve the conflict, they're still talking about kind of open ended military support for one side. and

as you, as you've noted, not really talking about sitting down with people and talking back and forth across the table. and that's a strong contrast to the chinese proposal. the chinese proposal, which has just been issued, you know, is really in many ways a reiteration of what have always been basic principles of chinese foreign policy. and which are also articulated in their global security initiative. they want respect for sovereignty. they want respect for territorial integrity. they want, you know, to have things resolved by negotiation and dialogues. i think some of the critical things are that the chinese are calling for ending the sanctions ending unilateral sanctions. they're calling for abandoning the cold war mentality, which is really what has brought us to this situation. the riddle expansion of nato . well, since the chinese proposal has been mentioned, let's go debating. i know, let me read just a small fragment of the 12 point program that china recent release country should prevent block confrontation, which i think is talking about nato here,

and work towards building a balance effective and sustainable european security architecture. i don't know what it sounds like in mandarin, but i know what that sounds like in russian. so this is what the russians have been talking about even before the conflict started, go ahead in beijing. well, i agree with my colleagues though, the conflict has ground to a halt. i mean, and at this juncture it go on for years. the way it's been perpetuated. and quite frankly, he got great britain, france and germany are being hurt by this. and they are being drained, the amount of actual money that's flowing into ukraine is actually now greater on a monthly basis than that was which was flowing into afghanistan. so i mean, right now i see this move is just trying to prod, zalinski kind of remind him that this can't go on forever. i mean, as a country that is lost, 35 percent of its g. d. p in the last year is now pre 2019.

it had a per capita g d p of about a less than $5000.00. now it's about $1250.00. that's a year. $1250.00 a year, g d p. so you know, they're in dire straits that ukraine can keep this up for ever. there might be a desire on the us side to grind russia down in the same breath, take out a active competitor. that is europe. but at some point, europe is going to say no or we're not willing to do that. we're not going to have a mutual drowning packed with russia and see ourselves in essence decimated. already, germany is facing tremendous pressure. they're laying off people left right and centre. their industries are fleeing to other places. the car companies, for instance, to china, making deals with their joint venture partners that they can produce in china, so that there'll be competitive worldwide because they can't do so our,

if they stay in germany. so at this point, there is no tremendous weariness. there's, you know, a lot of bellicose jingoism. i'm now everyone's trying to convince everyone else they're tough and ready to stand strong. hopefully, that's a pre k, sir, to actually sitting down the table. but zalinski is in a difficult political situation. after saying he won't give an inch. now how do you backtrack on that? and would he be really i wonder that that out. you know, it's spin, you know, the word existential has been thrown around or a lot, but you know, whatever happens in ukraine, it will be existential for mr. zalinski, but he volunteered for the job. okay, that's his choice. a shark, you know, we had some, we had treasury secretary, yellen go visit ukraine with a 10000000000 dollar package basically to keep the lights on here. i. i mean, if there is so much dependency there, her, why doesn't the americans, you know, it,

it's up to them. i mean, you can't, is a 100 percent reliant, or i should say zalinski is 100 percent reliant on the united states right now. and, and the european union, it's up to the european union and particularly washington can call this off today. now, go ahead in paris. well, i'm actually, i things that are the lensky, the ease of course, relying much on united states of, for military procurements and, and not so on. you rob, or europe is seen them much more as a meat to long term opportunity for ukraine. now is a problem, is that on is a warning you claim as being bleeding out, or all of the military stocks are all the stock pies accumulated for years. and for years, i recently read a beeper seen zet,

daniel of stock pile. i've been dissipated in just a 6 months in ukraine. so, ah, so far as the situation is, the mall are more and more driven by this problem. you know, i'm united states, all your rob called make some promises, like, you know, a 10000000000 dollars or 15 billions euro's okay. ah, but the problem aim is, or what will be delivered in the next week or in the next months. and that's a real problem now for ukraine. you know, e, it's, it's very good to say, well, we have to contribute for the reconstruction for the rebuilding of grain or to such and such level. okay. but now it's a problem. if ukraine is fighting a war ease, expanding a huge quantity of ammunition, you know,

it's more or less well, you know exactly where i was at. we're almost out of time for this part of the program. i don't understand why anybody's talking about reconstruction. we don't even know what ukraine is going to be for reconstruction to begin. it's farcical. i, they, they keep wanting to spend money without any kind of strategic goals. it really belies reality, gentlemen, i'm gonna jump in here. we're going to go to a short break, and after that short breaks, we'll continue our discussion on piece proposal staying with hardy. ah ah, ah

ah, ah . ah government has been killing his own people and on buffet is

it's amazing that this is not being covered in western media and hasn't been covered for the last 8 years. i'm here for 5 minutes and then i'm told the 1st 5 people they found it was 5 decapitated heads up in a quarterly request on demand. a boy fos. cathartic to me. can you use me? no fiber to say keep these on your father law kid. even the inflammation wool, almost all the independent journalists pointed out that nato and the u. s. were directly responsible for initiating the military conflict and ukraine, our casualties of it as long as we want the war to continue. we will fight that more using ukrainians as proxies and we will fight it to the last ukrainian death. that's what's happened in dumbass this whole time. this is, these aren't objects, these are people that and so that's why i do what i do. that's why i'm here

the welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing peace proposals in the okay, let's go back to can, can one again with the european propulsion. we haven't seen it on paper. ok, this is this weeks from media. you know, if, what did the french, the germans and the british are talking about it again, it doesn't solve any problems. it's actually just saying, hey, let's just take a break. so we can rebuild up ukraine with a lot more nato weapons, and then we'll discontinue the complex. i mean, that's what we're, that's one interpretation of this. i don't know why they think that that would work . your thoughts. go ahead. well, that changed. i couldn't agree more. i think that,

that these, you know, and as you say, there's nothing on paper. no government has issued an official kind of statement or anything. these are rumors, these are sort of, you know, trial balloons that are getting floated, although probably balloons aren't the best thing to talk about right now. but, you know, i think that, you know, the, the problem is that this is a situation that has gotten bogged down for the, for nato. and for the americans, they're making rather rather desperate most either to try to you know, pop up the, the attitude again to, to, you know, have bite and go and show up. does it give or to maybe, you know, suggested oh, maybe we are ready to, to think about some, some kind of negotiation. but everybody from zalinski on west is saying, you know, but we, what we want negotiate was put, you know, we won't negotiate with the russians. well, who are you going to negotiate with? if you're not going to negotiate with, with, you know, president good. and you know,

he's the leader of the russian federation right now. and, and that's the way it is. you know, eyes, it's just a situation that has, that has become unmanageable. certainly from, from the side of, of the west. and the irony, i think, is that what may well emerge from all of this in the end when finally, people do sit down and talk is a resolution that's going to look very much like what russia proposed to buy in with. i agree with the addition of territories and populations. you know, i absolutely, everybody does go back to december 17th, 2021. and the proposal is there. it was sent to nato. it was sent to washington and tenure writing. i think we're going to basically get that. okay. and what a pity it is for ukraine to have to go through that and all the suffering that's gone. i live in europe for example, as a result, i know. let me go back to you in beijing here. so we're talking about negotiations here. but i have a problem with that as well because we had that mince process, we had anglo merkel. we had president how long and they've come out in the last

couple of months saying that they weren't dealing in good faith. so if anyone from the west, you know, an intermediary and a whole that the russians are going to say, well, who do we trust here? we, we had to interlocutors for years or 7 years lied and deceived. i mean, so that is really the west is creating an enormous reputational problem for itself . i mean, it's a big doesn't take things if it says things that are bright things, that sign thing. but it's not worth anything and that's another problem. the west has been trying to and to conflict that it started go ahead and beijing. well that, that is the irony. you have many of these powers insisting that they are upholding the international order. and the rule of law, when in fact they're doing exactly the opposite 9, i'd have to agree, i mean, the us cannot claim to be anything but a, you know, road nation. it so walked away from treaties and i ran on climate change twice

as well as an arm. the armies control were in very important arms control agreements, zeroes, walker, and i'm sorry to regular, keep going. yeah. with the, you know, your peter, your ear. right. i mean there, there is no trust and that is the basis. you cannot have an international order unless you have agreements and trust. and at this juncture, by exposing the fact that they were not dealing in good faith during made and one and 2, they basically destroyed that. so the only way you can do that is if, if there are power sitting at the table, who are going to offer guarantees. and i mean, i don't mean just a china, there have to be, others are out there a india, et cetera, that world coming together. and we're at whether washington wants peace or not saying look, we'll guarantee this, i think that would give away out, at least for most of the europeans. they feel very strongly. i talked to a lot of the ambassadors here in beijing. and they're, you know, they say, well,

you know what russia did, is unconscionable and you, you have to side with us. and i said, well, what, what are you doing to help china with its problems? i mean, you, you seem to only one help when you want it. you don't want to give any help. you know, where's the trust on, on your side to trust goes both ways and they, they just, they don't want to talk about it. they just want to say, well, this is our problem, you gotta do something about it. i don't understand why that affects china, but that's the attitude there. so no trust, no going forward. well, it's very interesting, gentleman is that when something's important to washington, they want people to listen and act. but when other countries have issues is the russian, they leave the u. s. and it was to now, i says, brush it up, i go, go back to this statement. they are, are back of december, 17, 2021. when the russians had, here is our proposal for european security and it was completely brush. wait, because washington is an interested in that jack. let me go to you in paris on the issue of trust here. you know, who below update the nord stream pipelines,

do you want to trust those people in negotiations? well, i certainly am the nor stream by plunk, but will be 11 topic or more precisely, or one bargaining chip in any negotiation. bet bet i said before, you know, and that's a problem that is trust. there is, of course, no trust or, or very low level of trust. and from russia toward the european, mostly, ah, gemini, and france, end as they raised a very, very little trust us in europe towards russia. so this is as those of us proven now what it is also a p range. he's mistrust. a between nato and now you, you, are he ringing false or more and more people saying, well, ah, as

a united states are acting without taking advice from other countries as are playing their own game and in some, to some extent, they have all sued, the major a europe and most of precisely germany. so we have, of course, mistrust between russia and nato. and from the russian side is perfectly understandable because of the declaration. often he says, merkel and mister francois long, but there is also now a growing feeling of mistrust inside the nato. and this is miss king. any negotiation extremely extremely well shakun, i mean out, it's during this entire process. harry, obviously washington doesn't care what the europeans think about anything. i'm sorry, but that's the truth. ok. listen to victoria new and you know it,

she doesn't have, it's a scant regard for her. so called allies in europe. can let me go to you, you know, one of the, one way we got here is that the whole post war security arrangement in europe was, was designed without russia and against russia. and our peace in ukraine has to allow russia to be part of that process. do you think the, the west can do that to make such a dramatic change and say, hey, you're part of the process here. okay. i can't see any poet or virtually no politician in the west, being able to say that, and that's really the problem that we face go ahead, can well, that is absolutely a major problem. and, and, you know, i think, said that joe biden is, in some ways he's kind of the last old cold warrior, you know, and now he's right at the forefront of what is becoming the new cold war. and he just doesn't seem to think that anything has changed since 1962. no. and i think

that that's a very dangerous mentality. it's, it's, it's hard to imagine the united states making a and honest and sincere effort to resolve this conflict because the united states sought out and, and generated this conflict. you know, the, the, the, the progressive a movement of nato east, the step by step expansion, the approach to russia's borders. something which, you know was promised not to happen and then did happened yet again, an example of not keeping one's word on the part of the americans. this is sam, this is what brought us to the situation in which we find ourselves today. and there is no indication whatsoever that america's political elite are prepared to think about the world in a way other than, you know, it's our way or the highway. and that's, that's obviously not working. yeah. i know are in beijing, in your personal opinion, what do you think the chinese learn leadership has learned about international

affairs and dealing with the west, particularly washington during this last 12 months? well, i mean, it's nothing new. i mean, it's american exceptionalism. this idea that the u. s. has to be in control of the world in order to prevent world war 3. unfortunately, that thinking is probably going to lead to it. a china is extremely concerned. it's, it's not, you know, they really do fear that there could be a nuclear war if russia is pushed more arms go into this. eventually it spreads the contagion. and at that juncture, you know, it all bets are off. and, and quite frankly, they're concerned about whether the u. s. is going to use this as an excuse to, to cause trouble in more trouble in taiwan. so they see a lot of parallels. a mirror of, you know, using proxy countries as tools to weaken a, what they perceive as competitor. so at this juncture, us eyes,

not an entity to be trusted and china knows that. but they're looking outside of that area. they're looking to europe at which has, you know, visceral interests involved in this. they're looking to the rest of the world, including the global south to say, listen, we don't act together. we're going to her literally be killed alone. so at this juncture, china is looking for the alternate way of bringing trust to the table. you're not going to get it between europe and, and russia, and the united states. so there has to be another way of doing it, bringing more countries into this kind of pressure point to bring the sides together and do it. but i do think it goes back to min squan that at that juncture, i know you can have a united ukraine, but it's a loose federation of states which would retake a super majority to allow any kind of, of, you know, nato or are, are you to come in, plus, there would have to be an agreement to make sure that rushes security interests are

observed. i, as she said, you know, one country's security cannot rests on the insecurity of others. that's what it's called, the indivisibility of security. that's all the time we have gentlemen. i want to thank my guests in beijing, paris, and in new mexico. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz. see you next time. remember, i'll stop bulls. ah oh when i was showing wrong, when i'll just don't hold any world. yes to shape out disdain becomes the african and engagement equals the trail.

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