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hm. welcome to worlds apart. i've been taking stuff congratulating itself on the long piece. europe is now in the midst of blood and possibly quite protracted conflict. what led to it and how long it may take until peace returns? well, to discuss that i'm now and join by when are back a european parliament number representing alternative for germany. mr. back, it's great to talk to you. thank you very much for being available. my pleasure, good afternoon to you. now, let me start with a personal question because alternative for germany, it went in, russia is often portrayed as this party. and i don't know how to put a diplomatically somewhat cuckoo than not particularly enlightened walters. and yet, judging from york a dummy background, you have an advanced degree in law. you taught in oxford than the london school of economics. you wrote that book on emmanuel con with such as scholarly and

intellectual background. why did you off with this particular party? well, let me make 2 points 1st. it's greg. yes, i did study not just know about philosophy and politics at oxford university and i've written books on emmanuel can't legal reasoning and the european court of justice. these are scholarly books and they are not too late. political, now, there is a common misconception that if you've received a decent education, you will inevitably turn into a good politically correct, liberal, internationalist and perfectionist. that is not my you. i think the purpose of education is to make you critical, including self critical and enlightened,

and it should enable you to question received wisdoms and prevalent opinions. and that's what i've been doing all along. now to my 2nd point, the a f d a f is a young party and, and what you've tried to put rather are well, possibly diplomatically. and i think there are 2 things to bear in mind. we are young party, which means we have lots of editor politicians. it is correct to say that some of my colleagues have perhaps not always chosen the most nuanced and diplomatic way of putting it. however, in matters of politics, you also sometimes have to be political to express uncomfortable truths. and then secondly, you can imagine we are party that is questioning practically every aspect of the political consensus in west germany in particular since the war. there is

a relentless campaign being waged against us by the publicly own den finance media austin service, currently a really landless call. i got a dot campaign against russia and president putin force by the same media, germany. speaking about the matters of politics, i know that the in the european parliament, you are a member of the identity and democracy group as well as a participant of the conference on the future of europe. how do you see the relationship between identity and democracy and do they have any place in the future of europe? well, 2 questions, really, you're asking here, the relationship is a close one. we know that a few democratic countries that don't have a strong sense of identity usually that a sense of national identity or i exception switzerland is a very good example. although you could say they have

a sense of national identity based on a political emancipation struggle against imperial power around them. so it's switzerland has an identity which is multinational, and the same to some extent could be said about the united states. however, in europe, democracy has generally involved in the case in the, in the context of nation states. now to the 2nd part of your question, well then the answer is fairly clear. both democracy and identity, especially national identity in western europe under threat mrs. funder line, the president to the european commission has announced that she wants to brain dozens of millions of non european people to europe in the next 10 to 50 years. in my view, national identity cannot survive such

a massive influx of people that have no cultural routes or in europe. and if i may, a 3rd point and i've done the calculations on that roughly at present, one 3rd of germany's population is partly for in origin. if present trends of immigration continue even then to diminish level, it is the job of birth rate remains as low as it stays. germany will cease to be a good, jaunty german country by something like 2035. and miss about, can i ask somebody here for a 2nd because i'm sure you know what the people on the are they side of the political spectrum would say they would see your comments as xena for big. but having read what you have a sad about migration, i think you're making more of a sudden, social and institutional argument that it takes, you know,

a certain percentage of people rooted in society, rooted in its culture, rooted it in its ways of lives to preserve that way of life and to develop it and to move it forward. why do you think and i mean, the field of cell so sealed you so well developed across europe. i mean there is a department, the facility in any major university. why is it not taken as a practical consideration and why is it always discussed within the framework of ethnicity or skin color? where's you know, traditions they do have certain and very practical value for ensuring stable and comfortable lives? well, you've put my point very clearly. i need deliberate on it. i think a society can be stabilized by very great rapid changes will so in this field, immigration, now why isn't this perfectly sensible view, which was column place in europe until about 30 years ago. nowadays,

ostracized is some kind of al tries than about xenophobic view. now the reason for this seems to be quite clear because the kind of liberal agenda we see in the west now is not merely reason based, but it's a kind of crazy i religious creed. and they are trying to crowd out all sorts of realistic, practical objections. so that vision of creating a kind of city on the hill on ok, can i ask about one other thing that has much more direct relevance to where i am in russia and where my relatives are in ukraine? i'm talking about the war in europe, and i think here again, another very important repeat in tradition was if not broken, then totally rejected. and i'm talking about this notion of the european

balance of power or balance of security. because europe, as we all know, has, has had many wars, but one of the results of that war is a certain diplomatic and international relations culture. dot is rooted in the balance of interest in the balance of power. and for a long time, it was respected and one could argue that the long piece that i mentioned in the beginning was also a result of that. but this tradition seems to be fully rejected in the case of ukraine because no russia security interest. i even taken into consideration and haven't been taken for quite some time. and secondly, the europeans have fully put all their, you know, secure distance abilities in the american basket. why would it happen to europe that has been tried and tested by war? so many for so for such a long time. well, the sad fact is that the large, the last great european wall is now what is it's nearly a,

it was happened 80 years ago. my mother experienced it as a child and the last thing she would have a one is a not a war. and her ration for the most part is past due to a boy. but most europeans, dom, i gotta go now and we've seen significant changes in new patient system where history often starts in the post war era. so much is forgotten. i think that is one reason. secondly, i think you are slightly misrepresenting the tradition of realism and european thinking. i agree, it's very important tradition, but because you're dominated intellectually for several centuries, practically, or other traditions of liberal of international relations also originate in europe. so if you take

a manual and he was the 1st to introduce the notion of the league of nations, this is a more ideal regarding tradition in european international relations thinking. so the realist tradition is why important fun? absolutely right. it's been forgotten. i think the reason this part be that europe is a much diminished continent. the europeans don't need anywhere any longer. and if you are in a position of importance, well, some people do is they want to be at least the last, the greatest moral superpower on the world in the world. and i think that's part of what is motivating europe here. it's certainly motivating john. well, i hear, you know, i'm studying psychology on the side. i have a great interest in depth psychology of carl young. and he has actually explore and the trends in the collective, unconscious, quite extensively. he wrote

a lot about the knots of phenomena and as, as a suppression of who you are truly are. and you know, when, when i see these people that you are also referring to only concerns with the future, only concerns with that illusions. and not being informed by the past, by their own history. if it comes across as a form of self, only nation and that form of self in the elimination, we know it from psychology, always produces hatred and not just hatred of somebody else. it's usually also sells, catered, the dam is projected on to other nations. do you think it has anything to do with the current demonization of rush or perhaps other countries like china, where you run i is slightly mono, co causal, what you're saying. and of course, but there are, there is element readers need. sure. it is. characterization of religions makes

a very similar point. i myself made the point that importance maybe at the source of it diminished position of power. i think in the case of russia, there's another element. russia is little understood in western europe. the final point is that west germany, in particular, has been integrated into western structures for 7070 by years now. whether it went of a great amount to propaganda and a integration into western systems and thinking through education. if you look at east germany, i come from west germany, but in east germany, i think there is a much greater skepticism towards the received western liberal

narrative. so it's partly an east west to buy the euro. of course, and to present met is complicated in from russia's position, not necessarily the favorable way because of the 30 years ago for 35 years ago, the soviet union dominated eastern europe. so i think the prevalence set set of concerns in eastern europe is security concerns all can well mr. back, we have to take a very short break right now for the sake of our editorial security. but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned ah, a

31 come back to was a parent with our back european parliament member, representing alternative for germany. and mr. ben, before the break, we discussed on this multifaceted and very complicated attitude that the some germans have towards russia. and i've heard you say in one of the other interviews that many of your colleagues at the european parliament as filled with hatred, not only for russia, but for the kind of conservative traditionalism that russia represents. do you think these people who i filled her with hatred, do they even understand the what russia tries to leave out in the world? what it tries to base it's and identity on where you have to realize the european

parliament you have about one on one and a half minutes. so i often have to be, i had to use shorter traditional conservatism was such a short term. i think the other factors that play, of course, in russia, i think certain basic issues such as decent standard of living, ask you the better you bought. the government has to be better concerned about security, basic comforts to the population. that's one aspect. and the other a point is in your good, i think historically education has suffered. so for many europeans, they tend to reject everything to something like $960.00. so the, his history starts with a sexual, a cultural revolution of the 1960 s, and then reject anything that went on before. so i think that is part of the

problem. most of our decision makers in europe now operate in a strictly a historical manner. they sometimes draw historical parallels, but they are in full. now you mentioned the russian government and focus on the standards of living and european positions on the country. often talk about in spirit and aspirational and inspirational values, but ensuring basic safety. ensuring basic services is not just a value in, since you to of the government and maybe just my russian vice. but i want to part of the problem here is indeed the, to the conflict between governmental duties and governmental aspirations. and the again, the total rejection of the europeans of the former, because if we can analyze the recent decisions, including the abandoning of all trade with russia,

it looks like the living standards of european citizens are not the 1st priority. absolutely. i think for the last 25 years living standards for at least half the population in most of europe have not improved. it's as simple as that. now they are declining as a result of the inflation, which is at least hardly a result of the corona lockdown class, the events in ukraine, and that kind of inspirational and aspirational value catalogue that our politicians are constantly evoking. these ideas are very far removed from the concerns of most people. so yes, in that respect, you're absolutely right. mist european governments are failing their people and possibly that's also why then at the core of the ukrainian crisis. because i think

the government of russia for years have been stating that they have a duty to protect their interest secured inches. it's not just an aspiration of val, it's something that we have to act upon. we have our military for that precise reason, but all we heard in response was there some aspirational values of some european politicians and the ukrainians. now i wonder if this can, if this dilemma between you know, hard duties and aspirational valleys, if it could have been resolved from a doubt and are constantly given your understanding. what's been happening in your brain, not i have from february of last year, but a couple of decades. prior to that, i said you've given me a group time horizon that makes answering the question easier. because i think that be very little. i mean, the attitude of russia immediately in the immediate coast war pursued towards west of your own country taken has been remarkably generous.

it very few countries have treated germany as well as russia has. in the last 33 to 34 years of russia agreed to read a vacation without the body. practically any thing would return that. i didn't want to say that this is not the way russia treat inch as germany. this is a historic tradition of resolving conflict for russia. it was the same case with napoleonic wars, russia, welcoming friends back into the family of european countries, not taking any contribution. and it's a consistent and philosophical approach that the russian state has taken over and centuries. not just over down to where i gave you the one example that i knew about best. so what there was if you want me to put it in both general tubs, there was a very, a distinct approach to seek claim. so relations with west west of

europe and thus be largely will not be rebuffed. so there was very little that russia gothic return. so if you constantly bake concessions, if you constantly baker shows and very little causes return. well, that at some stage you bay change your approach. i think what we have to realize is that europe, together we've, driven by the united states did so to russia, in russia, accepted a great deal of east expansion. so the european sought and the american scientists, you, they could just march forward. they are surprised that russia doesn't agree. now the europeans, i think, are genuinely surprised. the americans ice age have a more rational attitude. they regarded, bore as a kind of power. again,

the european so often distracted by their own idea of this think well, i guess it's easier to be ideal if, when times are good and i've heard many experts say that the e u u. s. partnership was always on the american terms, but at least you have the benefit of foreign direct investment and relatively fair trade. but it's no longer the case. i think the terms of your partnership changing very rapidly and you're bound to give much more and receive much, much less. there. i'm in the american policy towards europe is pretty hawkish, if not creditor at this point of time, given the industrial capacities that are being transferred to the united states. now, how long do you think it will take until be european voters? they'll be repealed politicians, but the european voters will fill the pinch and will demand something, something different from their leaders. while you've chosen very hard words, hawkish and credit tread,

i'd like to defend the united states and this would god. yeah, just being rational from that point of view. i think it's the european reaction that said betty naive and foolish in the fall to the europeans, primarily allow themselves to be put in that position. the united states is just doing marks in the interest to be fat, but you are in another respect, i think, after the war, during the cold war, the united states required compliance in military and foreign policy matters. but a ton could guarantee high living standards that come to an end. the alliance with the united states. western integration is becoming increasingly expensive for many europeans as yet, and minority weight can be to it, but may hardly any of our politicians. so there is this dichotomy,

how long it will take. i cannot tell you why. when can i ask her? this is something that is absolutely puzzling to many of us in russia and particularly those who live in saint petersburg, which is a cd with huge german heritage and various strong cultural ties with germany. and this is also i see where and many of the gas projects are originated. for example, the stream pipelines were built from the, from that side of the bolted cost and given all the explosions and the recent statements. for example, from hungry. i'm hungry, prime minister, or been saying that he doesn't exclude it, but a possible repeat of such incidents. i just wonder, do you think the europeans would ever want to know what actually happened to you know that own energy infrastructure, aren't they? i mean, i understand there are russia, but on the fearful that something like that could happen in europe in this day and

age with the love a clear questions i can give you says no opinion, governments don't want to know the european people for the most part had a suspicion what happens and was day and they couldn't care less or what there is an oppressive climate, which makes it very difficult to call a spade a spade because our government has systematically avoided a serious investigation of who carried out the attacks. that intimidated they do not wish it, they don't. well they know that they don't wish it to be widely. i know i have heard of that, but that russia has experience a number of terrorist attacks by ukrainian militants yesterday. and i think it's pretty clear that if the war will come, ever closer to russia, russia will respond. do you think people in europe understand that?

you know, that the time for illusions is over. it's in there is a real war on the ground in russia, ukraine, and if it continues, it may come to europe as well. no, they don't understand that probably speaking. i think some people as some kind of a mobile, amorphous fear, but the last great war happened so long ago that most people think this method can somehow be localized if they were fully aware that this ball may escalate. and because there's an interesting paradox, let's assume the west is right, and they can really push russia better. get you cray, to push russia back for to be. so can you can yes, well out i have the army you? yes, i'm just trying to sub summarize what some people i think he missed. they will argue,

craig, such an extent, that because russia isn't sending his whole army in, they may push russia back. i don't think that most europeans have an adequate conception, that in these circumstances, a great power like russia will respond with any means at its disposal. i'd like to be, i'd like to leave it as it is. that is clear what i mean. i guess the most europeans are aware of this. absolutely not. and so what the united states, also with china, i mean, it, it said, you know, international politics want to one. i mean, it's the, the basic thing that people study in international affairs class. now can i ask in the last the very last question because you don't sound very up to mystic but what's your best home for the next couple of years as far as russia, europe and the whole world is concerned? yes. all right. i know by disposition, an optimist,

and the last decade has generally proved me right. but obviously we'll have to do what we can do. so said that even at the end, tomorrow we should start at least one last 3. so i think we have to reach an understanding that you, craig, this war has to be brought to an end. i can't give you an easy solution of what this might be. but what i do know is that this is a grave danger to you. and he's already backing our economy. it's no one. it's not doing anyone any good, certainly not in europe. so we have to do what we can to edit mr. back. it's been great pleasure talking to thank you very much for your time. thank you. and i couldn't agree more with thank you very much. thank you for watching hope to sara again on well to part ah

a for i'm rick sanchez and i'm here to play with you. whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different, my little opinion that you won't get anywhere else work of it please. if you have the state department, the c, i a weapons makers, multi $1000000000.00 corporations, choose your fax for you. go ahead. i change and whatever you do,

don't watch my show stay mainstream because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called direct impact. but again, you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change the way you thing with the west is escalating the ukrainian conflict and pursuing its own you political agenda? well, undermining beijing's piece plan. that's according to china's foreign minister who spoke out to sessions as the major political event in new. regrettably, however, efforts for peace talks have been repeatedly undermined. there seems to be an invisible hand pushing for the per traction and escalation of the conflict. the world bank limit this cooperation with after the countries a leader issued a statement on the threat coming from african migrants local slam the president for engaging in racial this.