imagine this, it's immediately after the $911.00 attacks, you're an agent in the transportation security administration in the united states . you see something that could lead to another terrorist attack, and you reported to your supervisors what happens next. they fire you. i'm john carry aku and you're watching the whistleblowers. ah, today we're talking with t as a whistleblower. robert mclean. bob is both typical and a typical of many national security whistleblowers. he's typical in the respect that he saw evidence of waste fraud abuse or illegality. and he said something about it without any regard for what it would do to his career. he blew the whistle because it was the right thing to do. he paid a very heavy price for it, which will tell you about in a moment. but he's a typical in that he has proven time and time again that he's literally not afraid

of anybody. he's taken on his immediate bosses and he's taken on senior u. s. government officials all the way up to the secretary of homeland security. he has had a list attorneys defending him, and he's defended himself not just in the federal district court, but at the appellate level and all the way up to the supreme court of the united states. more than once, the department of homeland security couldn't silence him, and when they tried, he sued. and when they were forced to take him back, they put him in dead end jobs. and he sued again. and when they failed to offer a plan to secure pilot doors on american aircraft to prevent another hijacking and another terrorist attack, he invented one himself. he was even given a patent for it by the us patent and trademark office. so where is bob now after fighting homeland security for more than half of his career? he's in court again, and he's not giving up bob mclean. welcome to the shell. good

beer, john. bob, you and i have known each other for more than a decade. i met you through one of washington's whistleblower groups while i was going through my own travails after blowing the whistle on the cia torture program . i still remember our 1st meeting. i was depressed and distraught and you were up beat and ready for a fight. you're still fighting a 10 years later, you began your career at t. s a. as a federal air marshal. and you took your job very seriously. tell us how this whole odyssey got started for you in the 1st place. well, after i left the air force, i became a war patrol agent. and 6 years later, i was so hired by the federal aviation administration to be in the 1st class, close $911.00 special agents. and a few weeks afterwards,

we turned in to the t. a say, and they made us all federal air marshals and that's how it started. you were, you are only on the job for about 18 months when you heard of a proposed t. s. a plan to take federal air marshals off of long distance nonstop flights in order to save money. this was a dangerous idea and you said so, but you were rebuffed. so you went to the media that actually worked and the plan was withdrawn by the department of homeland security. what made you go to the media rather than to say the inspector general or the congressional oversight committees? well, early in the year marshall program, there were several or pre 911 year marshals that were telling us that eventually the u. s. is going to install a secondary barrier system between the cockpit and the main cabin, which was

a 100 percent, eliminate hijackings. and the israelis had had this system for several decades. and a lot of his didn't really understand that concept of this secondary barrier. but once we started flying these missions, and we saw that the only thing between another hijacking and the in the rest of us on the plane was either a flight attendant standing in front of an unlock, cockpit or a flight attendant was spinning around a drink cart perpendicular into the eye and we were saying early in 2002 us air marshals. we can't react fast enough to somebody charging that. and often

they would put us in positions on the aircraft, which would make is almost impossible to even try to jump and react to somebody. charging an unlock, cockpit. worst of all, we would be put in a, in a window or middle seat with passengers in between us and be unlocked it. so we were constantly what's going on here? how are we going to stop this? and then in april of 2003, 4 months before my, my supreme court sided disclosure, the pilots went to the associated press and said, this is a disaster waiting to happen without secondary barriers. the chronology of what happened to you is very complicated in my view, t a se fired you in 2006 on the grounds that you had disclosed sensitive security information to the media. but sensitive security information is unclassified. you

appealed the decision to the merit systems protection board, which is supposed to protect federal workers, but you lost there in 2008. then you appealed to the federal 9th circuit court of appeals. and last there, although that court said that the merit systems protection board had jurisdiction over your case. the court added that you should have been protected under the whistleblower protection act in 2009 before the merits systems protection board you lost again. and in 2010 and administrative law judge judge ordered that you'd be removed from tier se, but you kept fighting. another appeal in 2011 confirmed your termination from t essay, but then in 2013 a supreme court decision resulted. and you being granted a new hearing and you were retroactively reinstated at t essay with back pay and benefits. you were formally declared to be a whistleblower in november 2015. tell us what it was like going through an

experience like that for 7 years. what was it like on you personally? how did your family deal with it? and what gave you the wherewithal to just keep fighting year after year after year? woes pretty simple. ah, a year after my 2003 disclosure, the 911 commission report confirmed exactly what we had been complaining about. the hijackers simply waited for the pilots to get food trays for to use the laboratory. it's right there on ages 515-8245 or the 911 commission report. the cockpit was not secure, and it still wasn't secure. and they fired me and said that essentially it's a big secret. that a cockpit door opens,

throttle fight. and this sensitive security information label, it's really damaging because, you know, it is unclassified in it. it has no controls over it. i mean, a, an airline janitor can essentially declare something as, as i sought. but it's really bad because as soon as the t s a puts an ss, i'm working on a document that, that is exempt from freedom of information act requests. so this, this was just all wrong all these years. but everybody was telling me that i in danger public safety. and what i did was greedy is that i told all the, all the terrorist in the world that, that, that, that deadly dim ard shut service are not secure. and so i just kept fighting down

my neighbors thought i was crazy. my family thought always i was crazy, but it was just the obvious was the obvious, but unfortunately, the public doesn't see it even to this day because we still couldn't find it. tenants bodies and carts to protect our caucus. you know, this is an ongoing theme with national security whistleblowers to that. anytime you make your revelation, they accuse you of endangering the lives of americans, usually american soldiers. and all you have to do is say, name one name, one american soldier, that of i, i've endangered by trying to uphold the constitution. and they can never, they can ever answer that. bob ear troubles were not yet over in march of 2019 t. s a fired you yet again. they said that they were objecting to something that you wrote on an air marshall message board. what happened and where do you stand now? yes, i on a, on

a secret. facebook used to have secret groups where they were impossible to see. and it was sort of like, i want to show you a forum where air marshals we would communicate. and i simply posted a g rated i photo and text in video links. and i also media links with regards to the fact that an air marshal who repeatedly couldn't shoot a gun meeting. the air martial standards was repeatedly failed, was even fired or not for not being able to pass the air marshal firearms examinations. and the examination was actually dumb down for her and others. and she came back,

failed the same test again. but instead of firing her, like everybody else did, she ended up by exchanging sexual favors with, with several of the bosses of the agency. wonderful, fired, meet the 1st time. and she recently into, in 2017 got another special special award despite the fact that she was incompetent in this was a or marshal who didn't know how to shoot on an aircraft. it shouldn't, and was fired and should, and at the job. so it was a protected disclosure, but the t s a believe that it was rude and had and it was sexual in nature. therefore that's the excuse that had fired before. even know the entire facebook secret group had a racist and violent. oh, st. by air marshals who the t as

a use as test as well witnesses to testify against me and my hearing. my goodness. gracious we are speaking with t s a whistleblower bob mclean about his years long fight with the department of homeland security. we're going to take a short break and come right back, stay tuned. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah ah, march the 112011. the largest lake ever recorded in japan is registered a 14 me to to nami, devastate the fukushima ichi, nuclear power plant a back up with the nuclear orient as a flooded spiking and horrific disaster. with

a suitable beneath. as much of an italian journalist living in japan decided to go to the area of the nuclear meltdown from fukushima immediately about the photo to ensure that it also says that a georgia tech oversight, i'd love to talk with somebody about the with a 4 year investigation starts watch on our t. oh

ah, welcome back to the whistleblowers. i'm john kerry. aku we're speaking with t s a whistleblower bob mclean about his experience fighting the department of homeland security. good. have you back? bob. agreed to be here with you john. bob, we are now almost 20 years after your initial whistleblower. just goes disclosure. that's a very long time, especially in government. but you have never given up despite daunting setbacks along the way. like most other whistleblowers, the price you've paid has been very high. your finances are ruined. you face the

possibility of losing your home. your family has been under terrible pressure, but you're back in court again. tell us about that. what's the latest on your case? it's gotten insane. we had, i discovered, after my marriage systems protection board hearing closed, that my administrative judge was a headquarters g s 15, which is generally a grade for a, a senior mid level manager. and was a attorney representing the department of homeland security, federal air marshal service during the same years that i was blowing the whistle on the agency which was confirmed by the supreme court. so i filed a complaint with the u. s. office of special counsel about the judge being silent

about working for the federal air marshal service. and also the fact that the federal air marshal service failed to notify me that the judge had worked for them. so not only this violated numerous ethical standards, but clear violation of several laws and regulations. so now there is a nother merit system protection more proceeding that's happening in philadelphia. it had to go to philadelphia because my other judges in the washington regional office. and i am currently appealing a decision by the, the philadelphia merit systems protection board to a federal appeals court in washington, d. c. that she improperly failed to give me a hearing on injunctive release on the fact that both the department homeland

security and my judge were silent about their past history during my disclosures. well, this is an ongoing theme in your case, isn't it? it's that you, you repeatedly have to go to the merits systems protection board. you repeatedly appear before administrative law judges, not necessarily and courts so much as, as judges from the department of homeland security and m s p b. and they don't disclose their conflicts of interest. how do they get away with it and how, how, how have they gotten away with it all these years? i don't know whether it would happen recently in a chicago case of another federal whistleblower and the new full board in in washington dc. there's a 3 member board that's appointed and confirmed by the senate pointed by the

president confirmed by the senate, where they said, absolutely not. it cannot judge, have any potential comp clicks of interest. so there is hope, but my case is just dragging on forever job. i was fired, it's going to be in march. it'll be 4 years that i've been fired again. and something that also happened is that the under the trump homeland security, they waited to fire me days after the marriage systems protection board full board . the one i just mention of remembers when empty and a month after the ord, when empty, the, the department homeland security in writing agreed to reinstate me voluntarily

with the u. s. office of special council and later react on that, that agreement. and since then, john, i discovered some agree just actions due to the pilot discovery. yeah. the big criminal investigators actually altered documents and then ended up being exhibit. absolutely. yeah, that's a criminal act. you know, you've, you've been at every, literally, every level of the legal community, in this case you've been at the administrative level, you've gone to the, the federal district court, the federal appellate court. you've been to the supreme court. what has the reception been to your case in the legal community in washington? it's been my own experience that most attorneys won't touch whistleblower cases because they're hard to win. and the whistle blower rarely has the money to pay for attorneys. so what has your experience been will thankfully mean right out of

the right out of the gate after the supreme court ruled in my favor, they were come and ask me in indirect and direct ways. so i was just methodically, every day, almost every hour. just memorializing all these crazy things are there were trying to set me up for it with regards to the legal community. they see me as like a pain in the st. right. can she just that'll and go away. we're tired of hearing the about the mclean case. don't come on and it's funny as and as administrations change they want you to subtle more in a near administration than another. so there's politics it boy, people are just so sick. oh, here comes the maclaine whistleblower case. again, but you know what, the cockpit is still totally unsecure. while that,

and that's why i said in the, in the intro to the show that one of the things that striking about you is that you're not afraid of anybody. you have fought the bush administration, the obama administration, the trumpet administration, and now the biden administration. and you're going to keep fighting until you have satisfaction. we've said here on this show previously that washington is full of whistleblower support groups like the government accountability project. the whistleblower and source protection network, the national whistleblowers center, the project on government oversight and so on. have any of these groups been helpful to you? had they been able to help advance your case in the courts, or if they served a different purpose with a government accountability project has been has been definitely assisting me legally. and then i get good publicity from the national whistleblower center and also the project on government oversight. but john,

i think the best thing the one thing that is shave for me and is just just destroy the government case of my in this whole vendetta against me. is i just keep telling the truth and del deviate from it because they lie, they, she, they all her documents, the candidate witnesses. it never ends. so if you just stick to the truth and maintain your integrity, it doesn't matter how many dirty tricks they can. boy, and they don't stop. and the problem is, john, as you know, there is no accountability for their, for their dirty trip. and you've made an important observation here. this is not a partisan issue. it doesn't matter if the democrats are in the white house or the republicans are in the white house. they're always going to work to cover for

themselves. and if that means sacrificing the whistleblower, they're willing to sacrifice the whistleblower. that's why you have to keep fighting, and i know you, i've known you for a long time. that's why you have kept fighting. before we wrap things up, i've got to ask you about your invention. this is a legitimate airline security invention for which you've received a patent from the us patent and trademark office. i think that's remarkable. in fact, that makes some people very wealthy, but that's not been the case with you. why is your airline security door not on every passenger plane in america right now? well, that's because a french company called saffron as a f r e n. they sort of have an anomaly on anything having to deal with the cockpit . so, and of course nobody thought of inventing a modular cockpit secondary barrier system,

but i did and saffron in there because most of the airline engineers have no concept being counterterrorism. counter personnel, badgers. so no, none of these people ever thought of developing a modular system. just about everything on a ship on an aircraft as to be modular because of because, i mean this is a, this is a movie facility. so i am the only owner of, of, of, of, of a modular system. and right now it's the launch on 2018. it mandated that aircraft now have to have secondary various systems. but i'm the only owner of a modular system. so the, so the corporations such as saffron, are basically buying out the f a and here lives and to, to, to muzzle my invention. finally, bob,

what advice would you give others who are considering becoming whistleblowers in light of your own experience? you've not had an easy time. what would you say to others? don't do. now worth it now worth. now worth what happened to my family? i have no regrets myself. that's just, that's just my dna. that's how i'm wired. i can't stand bullies. i can't stand it justice, but you know, 90 percent of the public isn't like that. so i wouldn't want to wish this on anybody's, on my worst enemy, especially somebody who has a family with, with small kids such a huge on now it's, it's just, it's not worth it. the american, the american politics, the judicial system just doesn't care about you. you're just a wire to them and

a lot of judges don't like whistleblower cases and because they get so complex because there's so much cover up in concealment. and in illegalities that go to covering up disclosures, public safety because this is really embarrassing stuff. so what happens is these cases start to just grow legs and become 20 headed monsters. so judges really, really can't stand us. because once we open up this pandora's box of wrong doing it, it just, it, it spills eternally. so that's why there's a disdain for us. i think you're right bob, this is not a decision to be taken lightly. it takes some believe somebody with real wherewithal to be able to, to take on a government to take on organizations that have unlimited funds and can bury you in the legal proceedings. well, i'd like to thank our guests, the fearless

t a se whistleblower robert mclean. and thanks to our viewers for tuning in yet again. in mid november, the greek orthodox archbishop of cyprus passed away and that his funeral, one of the church hierarchy said something that is apropos of all whistleblowers. i believe that it's something we should all aspire to. he said, quote, he left behind a body of work before which time itself will bow and he has taught us that humans justify their fleeting passing through this world struggling for the common good, unquote. that's exactly what whistleblowers do. they struggle for the common good thanks again for tuning in. we'll see you next time. 2 2 2 2 2 with

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