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hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are consider 9 peter lavelle. the sabotage of the north stream pipelines is back in the headlines in a big way. american in german media, a hint that some so called pro ukraine group might have been behind the attack. little evidence was provided is the west starting to have 2nd thoughts about the cube regime. in the cross talking ukraine, i'm joined by my guess, wilmer leon in washington. he is a political scientist author and radio talk show host in new york. we have jim carbonella, he is a political analyst, and in jersey city we have sarah flounders. she is co director of the international action center. her recent book is sanctions a wrecking ball and the global economy, or cross type roles and a fact that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, sarah,

let me go to you 1st in jersey city a month after seymour hersh is blockbuster report. and i think all of us would agree, he's probably the greatest living journalist as of our time, certainly of his generation. one month later on the same day, the americans and german media come out with an alternative theory to the case. ok, i mean, i'm sure that's not a coincidence. ok. what do you, what do you draw from all of this? i mean, i said this whole conflict from the beginning as a propaganda war, but this one is, this is a really interesting wrinkle. go ahead, sarah. well, it's actually outrageously for almost ridiculous and funny, a very strange excuse. but it's also the role that ukraine plays as a proxy of the u. s. and as a complete on and that means in anything they're supposed to take the fall. and it's like saying my dog did it. you know, when you have a pitfall on a leash and it's doing the barking and so on, i didn't do it now. everyone knows,

at this point, not only based on seymour hersh, his article, which was extremely well researched in depth and, and really interviews and new information from the very beginning. the north stream explosion was contested in the u. s. in europe, throughout and in germany. of course it by russia, seymour hersh, his article was important because it was really substances by a credible researcher that very clearly showed the u. s. role. and, and before that, even the u. s. had made clear that they would do this by made it clear that we have our ways and we will stop the noise stream. so they stopped it and now they are putting up an excuse which isn't even intended to be incredible. it's just a way for us in germany to continue to follow germany knows very well who has

absolute wrecked their economy. yeah, well mary, let me go to you in washington. i mean, it's really quite interesting. we look at the timeline potential of jeremy schultz . i refer to them is sergeant schultz on this program. he goes to washington dc for a day to meet the vital for about an hour. there's no press approach whatsoever. it's a very small delegation, gets back on his plane and then we have these reports coming out here. what in the world do you think we said in the oval office, you know, chilled saying, i know you guys did it. i need a way out because german public opinion is moving against you against the american administration, but what it's doing it to its economy. i mean, i mean, he's not the brightest politician, but he can see he can read the tea leaves, go ahead in washington. well, i think what president biden told him was, here are your marching orders, and your narrative will continue to be, i know nothing. i know nothing. i know nothing. important to remember

that. initially the united states came out and said, well, obviously russia blew up their own pipeline than sweden came out and said, oh, we've done an investigation. but we can't release the information because of national security. and now seymour hersh comes out with his incredibly researched articles and says, i think there's a different culprit here. and now we're, we're fed this line of it's some pro ukrainian folks in a sailboat. that, that dove, you know, to the bottom of the baltic sea carrying pounds and pounds of c for explosive. i guess the answer is when you have absolutely 0 credibility, and you have absolutely nothing you can say that is plausible. then you'll just say anything and expect because you're the united states that people are going to fall

in line and agree with what you say and believe what you or they won't believe it, but at least they won't contest it. yeah, in our chem, in sweden and denmark, germany, they have conducted their own investigations. so if the, if they could prove the russians that they would have already told us, but they can't prove it, that's why they haven't released their investigation. it makes perfect logical sense. jim and new york. well, of course then given up on the russians, did it theory that was ridiculous from beginning to begin with. and after the scene, larry details, sarah says, very detailed explanation of exactly how this was done, and by whom now they given up on that and they got to kind of. so what they've done is, and then they went for, but, you know, they all said every one of these governments had to be a state after this couldn't have been done by anybody, wasn't supported by the state actor. now, all sudden, after and wilma says that they call she'll send for a meeting and say the, here's the story and you're going with it. you know,

it's the some yacht with the skipper. and marianne, you know, and they went out with a 1000 pounds of, of c 4 and drove to the bottom of the ocean. and it's, it's, it's really silly and see morris's reaction yesterday. we heard it was classic and they can't be the stupid. but as wilma says, really, it's not about believing. there's 2 things that are going on here that are, you know, 1st of all, they have created now using the new york times, the washington post. now, who hovered this story. the times just mentioned seymour hersh asking to dismiss him, it wasn't post, i think, didn't mention that at all. so they're trying to what you're trying to do is create actually search engine optimist optimization. so when people look up now the story of the north stream sabotage, these things are going to come up 1st and we have time to washing post and all the mainstream media that are going to repeat them. and to this is very interesting, wrinkling here where they're saying, you know, yeah, it was a few training group and we don't think zalinski had anything to do with it, but the ukrainians have done some of some things that really might,

might undermine european support from them. you know, if i was the under boss and i was listening to the couple of the, the, to the copy say, oh, you know, this guy has done a little bit off the reservation on his work with us. i'm starting to be a little bit worried about whether i was going to be cut out. and i think the united states has laid the groundwork for that in a bizarre way with this. i think that's a very good point sarah. i was in the new york times, as mentioned here, i think that it says everything we need to know about today's media. seymour hersh used to work for the new york times. he was the greatest journalist, you know, in our lifetime, and they disavow his even existence. essentially. it is really amazing how they turn their back on journalism and just become an og refers for power. sarah. well, it's a completely complicit media that will carry any story handed to them by the administration at this point, and it's not even intended to be credible. the new york times didn't even cover has

was just said seymour hirsch's, article when it came out, was a block buster. you could see it everywhere and yet not in the corporate media. it was a non of debt. and seymour hersh has become a non person, not referred to, not mention. and these totally ridiculous stories are given front page coverage and front page coverage means that the marching orders for every other media is to make this a prime time story. it's, it's ridiculous and it's criminal, it's really a criminal violation of any standard, even of journalism. and it's why corporate journalism has less and less hold for so many people, they look everywhere else for news, but not the times and the post it wilmer. i don't know how much the u. s. and nato collectively spends on intelligence and covert operations and it's

a huge amount of money by any standard. but they can't figure out who blew up the pipeline. i just have a hard time. you know, they shouldn't be funded. i mean, if you can figure this out, ok, this happened in a bulk and say, you know, they have satellites, all the, all the ships paying it, you know, as i go through the water and you still can tell us who did it. i mean, but you know, it's not only is their story not plausible, is that they, they, they look like they themselves look incompetent. they are all sergeant schultz at this point, go ahead in washington. well, i think also, in spite of all the intelligence apparatus is that they have, they probably need to call china because with the spy balloons, china, we're able to tell them exactly who it was, who did that, but not matter if it's not a matter of credibility, it's, it's, it's not a matter of intelligence. it's a matter of narrative. it's

a matter of objective and it's a matter of trying to justify or to trying to justify the what can't be justified. because you have to go back to the very premise of the conflict between ukraine and russia with the united states and nato being the motivating forces behind it. so if you start out with an irrational action that has an irrational premise than all of your justification and rationale is irrational. yeah . how do you explain the in the unexplainable, how do you rationalize the irrational you one plus one will always equal, for as far as they are concerned, no matter how many angles or how many different types of mathematics or calculus you try to use, they will always tell you that one plus one equal for or you know, if really interesting gym as at seymour hersh has made it very,

very clear that he's not done with his investigation here. so anyway, i mean, a sima hurst was given such a, a gift here. so when he'll be able to do is sidebar, everything that german and it will, the official media saying, and he's going to be able to prove them wrong. i mean, the humiliation will only continue, but of course it will never be been in the mainstream. 30 seconds before we go to the break. jim, go ahead. yeah, well, you know, we're seymour hersh also said which is something she was, oh, infrastructure companies, oil development in the world. know who did this. everybody knows who did this. you know, and this is the, you're not kidding anybody is warmer, says this is not a matter of being credible. it's a matter of demonstrating power. it's almost cohen, a demonstration. we control the narrative watch, we can make you believe anything. unfortunately, for a lot of american media consumers, not so much for the rest of the world. and that's the problem. well, the whole, the world doesn't believe the official story. obviously,

i'm gonna jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine. stay with our t ah ah ah. by the middle of the 19th century, practically, the whole of india had been under the rule of the british empire. the colonial authorities had imposed that heavy death bringing the people into poverty and were exporting natural resources. and moreover, these authorities absolutely had no consideration for the provisions of the local population, treating them like 2nd class citizens. the british were showing signs of disrespect

even to those who cooperated with them. the fact of ignoring the religious beliefs of the hindus led to the mutiny of the see boys mercenary soldiers serving under the british crown. 3000000000 began on the 10th of may 1857 in the garrison town of may river, north of india. in the form of a mutiny. the rebels quickly took over daily. the heroic resistance of the indian people lasted for one and a half years. however, the forces were not the colonial authorities dealt with the rebels, cruel, late fee and slaves. iep boys were tied to the mouth of the cannon and were shot right through their bodies for the amusement of the public. these type of execution was called the devil's with the obliteration of the mutiny resulted in the death of 800000 inhabitants of india. however, the british empire never broke the free spirit of the indians and their will for resistance. mm march the

112011. the logistic earthquake ever recorded in japan is registered a 14 meter tsunami, devastates the fukushima di each in nuclear power plant. a . this is the nuclear reactors of flooded sparking and horrific disaster with he'll get in the middle a little goodies eventually via an italian. juno is living in japan, decided to go to the area of the nuclear meltdown and fukushima immediately. i remember for sure the very best one of us that he got a job over. so i'd love to talk to somebody about the moved it on with

for ya. investigation starts. watch on our t. o . welcome back to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter about to remind you were discussing you crate. ah. okay, let's go back to sarah and jersey city. the title of this program is getting you with a question mark here and, you know, over the last news cycle, people i trust in the media consortium news dot com, people like that. you know, there's a lot of speculation here is the, is a, by the ministration, looking for an off ramp for it's totally failed policy and dealing with, with ukraine. because you've already mentioned, you know, it's, it's getting a little bit easier to throw zalinski under the bus. ok, because there's,

from what we understand, and maybe this is all manufactured, but there is a growing frustration within the administration that this hasn't worked out very well. and we have to turn our attention to china. that's what i keep hearing from a variety of sources here. but i mean it's putting in the official narrative is, are only heard from german media and the washington new york times is that, you know, they don't want divisions to grow between germany and ukraine. well, they already see what's going on here. so what, what do you think it really is mean when it comes into the larger picture of the conflict? well, 1st of all, the u. s. always needs a fall guy and, and they treat their proxies really in a shoddy way, and they will drop them at a moment's notice. and also there's the u. s. quote, experts that will always say this is a wrong war at the wrong time. so let's pivot from russia to china. that stuff went going on. but i do think that the biden administration is absolutely

politically committed to this war and keeping it going. and the whole team is committed in that way. so they may drop zalinski or act like they're going to, but i think they're going to try to keep this going in one way. it's been a success for the u. s. as a war. it's a total disaster for all of the people involved. but it broke the relations that tween germany and russia, and that was its intention between the you and russia not only on north stream on oil, on gas, but on the extensive trade, which was 10 times the size of their trade. the you trade with the u. s, so they've managed to sanctions to break that and they want to keep that broken. they want to batter this down, even though it's a disaster for the entire

e. u. and frankly, russia has in this war is moving forward and has been able to match them in every sense. so they're not expecting a successful outcome, but i think they're committed to keeping it going. at this point, they're not negotiating on anything of substantial purpose. they are rubbing up against china. they are continuing on other fronts, but i don't think they've stopped this. yeah, i thought that was, that's a really interesting point because, you know, one of the problems with me go back to you and washington is and what is the definition of winning? what is the definition of losing victory and all this? i mean, the way i have looked at the conflict from the very beginning is security now that everyone wants security, and that's the way to get to settle this. ok, but the west doesn't want to do that, sarah, perfectly put it together. is that the u. s. is actually one on a strategic level. it's separated europe from its relationship with russia and

maybe a to some extent to china. and what as we go along here. so, i mean, the, the deal with, with ukraine is that they have to find somehow to declare victory. which of course won't be victory, but they're away for the conflict to be wound down. and that means sacrificing lensky, of course, go ahead and washington, well, a number of things there that you've laid out. i think you started the question with how, what's the definition of wind and the definition of wind from the american perspective is shareholder value, lockheed martin has one. raytheon, has one mcdonald douglas and boeing. they've won. i go back to the, our july of 2020. i guess, and they asked the ceo of boeing who boeing preferred to win the election. donald trump, or a joe by it. he said doesn't matter to us. yeah. because we're gonna get,

we're gonna get paid anyway that so. so the definition of wind for the united states, i think at the end of the day is shareholder value in terms of the relationship between russia and the e. u. i think it's still a little too early to, to call that game because one of the things that very few people discuss in this context is russia has a history that is centuries long. china has a history that is centuries long, that united states still hasn't reached 600 years. so they see a different timeline in horizon than we do. and that's why i believed their tactics . their strategies are different than ours. the united russia is fighting in artillery war and winning in artillery war, because that's the kind of battle that russia is designed to fight, which is why they don't go around the world provoking and starting fights if you

want to mess with russia, you got to come to russia and china is the same way. china isn't going around the world. well, many coups and starting fights. china is going to lay back and say, if you want to come to us, come to us. but when you do, you're gonna have to fight us on our terms. they have a different history that is centuries on the united states world view is incredibly myopic. it is incredibly short lived and short termed and, and so i think it's still a little too early to call the game on the relationship between the united states and the u, because more winters are going to come. it is going to continue to be cold during those winters and the people in the you are going to have to heat their homes. yeah, well, it's a, it's very interesting. it's been so many to have me go to gym and in new york. so many people have talked about will europe make it through the winter? well, it's not this winter, this, the problem. it's the one coming up. ok,

that's going to be a big problem. but i like will emerge that point in or is it maybe it is too early to call. but i mean, if you look how the you now is subservience to nato, nato is going to fight tooth and nail to continue its existence. okay, that's why we have the problem in ukraine to justify nato's existence. so that, that, that's a hard one to call. but at the, at the same time, no rush has found alternatives. the sanctions have failed. okay. and considering that minsk agreements, how the germans and the french disregarded them, dis, honestly, the russians will say you people are not worth negotiating with. and i think they will turn their back. i living here think that's a very good idea. the, the financial system in the west is very, very toxic. russia got burned in 2008. they don't want to get back into the sanctions. have failed. the world moves on, jim. yeah. the americans didn't think they would force russia and,

or for some faction, russia to overthrow the government because it suffer so much. ruble would become rubble, et cetera. that didn't happen. and even though what you have now is, oh, their new countries coming in to nato and, you know, and nato are more, more united to never blah, blah, blah. the problem is, this is a, this is a battle going on in ukraine that ukraine is going to lose. ok. my position is always to that. what you've got to look at here is who that this isn't going to be some little negotiation that's going to, that's what the americans are looking for. now, they're looking for an off ramp, although they're saying, oh, we got to give an off ramp to prove. but it's not true needs or it's the american to need more for it because they know they're facing a situation where the russians, russian army may route to europe, the ukrainian army. and they'll be faced with the position of a terrible defeat, crushing defeat or using nuclear weapons to stave it off. and they don't want to be in a position, so they're going to put down. he's now going to use feelers for negotiations and

deals that are really essentially mixed free. but ms. 3, i'm going to work because math one and mince 2 were negotiated and they didn't work . and after the battle started, there were negotiations that the u. k. in the u. s. stopped in their tracks. so at the end of this, this, the end of this is going to come when the battle field situation results. but either by the defeat, something that can't really be hidden, the defeat of one side or another, either russia is going to be pushed back to which february 2022 lines, which is very unlikely. or the ukrainian army is going to collapse. the russians are gonna hold the for o boss plus plus crimea, and insist on a peace tree. a fit assigned declaration by whatever ukrainian government is left, that those were obe, last or russian, and nato will never be a new a ukraine will never be a member. and i way i have and, and jim,

i would also add b, demilitarized know nato infrastructure whatsoever. or let me go to let me go to sarah. it's going back to the pipelines with sarah, what do you think? i mean, blowing up these pipelines was an act of terrorism, international terrorism. the same, i think the same people could use a false flag with chemical, biological, new killer on flag operation in ukraine. i don't, i wouldn't put in pass them, sarah. well, us wars are always and have always been based on false flying operations, and that's the role of complicit media. to scream it from every direction to repeat it again and again. and this is true whether we're talking, iraq, afghanistan, syria, and all the way back to the main in the war on cuba and the philippines. and so on . this way to us spite sits wars using false flag operations and complicit media. so will they attempt that again?

yes. will it have a different result than in the past? i don't think so. i don't think so. the war, the war is going to continue on one level or another, but they're not succeeding. that's what's important to understand that the sanctions failed. they said from the day one, this will be over and done in just a matter of weeks. russia will collapse, didn't happen here. we are more than a year later. so their projections are totally false. and the whole world knows this, the dollar has lost all of its standing and is now almost a fiction waiting for complete collapse. so there's big problems facing the u. s, which they are ignoring that have little to do with whether there's negotiations or a false flag because they're so severe. and where on the verge i, i do think of an economic collapse that will be more decisive than the discussions

on the ukraine because the u. s. measures have succeeded. well, and it's very interesting though, the way i look at it here is because the interlocutors in the west or so, so untrustworthy, that russia will have a, unilaterally decide when the conflict is over and we'll get it terms go back to december 17th, 2021 that's how it could, and folks read it, it's black and white. it was entered. oh and was sent to washington. that's how it ends. that's all the time we have. i want to thank my gets in washington, new york, and in jersey city. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here. are the see you next time. remember, cross up ah ah ah

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ah, a freaking use that out here without international islamic republic of iran and the kingdom of saudi arabia agreed to resume diplomatic ties and reopened their embassy software. years of diplomatic tension. chinese president gigi paying makes history as the country's 1st leader to be elected to a 3rd consecutive also ahead for a few follows the russians who but boss, ukraine is intent fighting, eliminates $350.00 ukranian soldiers, according to russia, defense.