thanks so much for being with us. you were raised in a patriotic christian republican home and you freely entered into public service. as soon as you became an adult, karen, you join the military and you were commissioned as an officer. you eventually rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel, and you retired after 21 years of service in the u. s. air force and at the national security agency. like all national security whistleblowers, you took your oath to the constitution seriously. and in the prelude to the iraq war, you spoke out about the corruption of political influence on the decision to go to war with iraq. tell us what that was like, what was it that led you to speak out? well, it actually started at the end of the cold war. i was in the military course, and i'm at my expectations were course that as the warsaw pact had done collapsed. and the so the in wasn't a soviet union anymore. that nato would actually shrink and become

a much smaller organization and instead it was the opposite. so that surprised me. i didn't, i didn't really, i didn't really understand why that wasn't. then of course, they launched into us and nato wars with the balconies. so a little bit like that kind of woke me up a little bit like i expected one thing and something else happened. and i then, of course worked in an essay. and so the things that an essay was doing were unconstitutional, even when i was there. and, and i, and i didn't, you know, i'm not a techie, ah, but just some of the things that we talked about us doing. i'm, we're problem constitutional problem. and yet nobody seemed to care that, that, that was an issue. we just, you know, we wouldn't talk about that, but it wasn't really an issue. and then of course, so my last tour of course was at the office, the secretary defense in policy. and we will look, i was working north africa so we were sharing office space was the people doing the

iraq and iran desks and that kind of thing. so i guess i had become a little more tired of just using the the government to play your games. i mean, this is what people seem to be doing these, these public servants, these bureaucrats. i'm not so much the guys in uniform. i guess i was allied with them and many of us would talk about, you know, none of this makes any sense, but you know, that's what they're doing. so what we're doing didn't have anything to do with national defense. increasingly i came to understand that and then especially what i saw in those final years as the, the run up to the invasion of iraq. i saw actual because i had access to the intelligence and the information. i could look at something on my desk classified secret and top secret. and the next day i would see the exact same thing in the new york times, and i knew i didn't share it. so who was, you know, doing it and,

and who was celebrating it and, you know, we, i think it was, it had nothing to do with defense. it had to do is we have a military. let's play with it to make our own personal wish discuss to and who, who these people will neocons, which had been around for a while. been around since reagan, certainly, if not sooner and on before then and, and they were certainly populate. and they stayed through an administration and they are, they stayed in the trumpet ministration of a john bolton, sir, to special security advisor and, and they're in there in the biden administration. so these people who manipulate the defense institutions that are supposed to be constitutionally bound and there was to serve the country and serve the people, the people that pay for them. they don't do any that they just use those institutions. and so i guess i was, you know, when you've been in the military, we, you know, you've been in service for a while. you pretty much lose patience with it. and so i, i really had overtime begun to trust my own gut and my own judgment. and it was not

a problem for me to seek out ways to, to share the information that i had. it didn't even, it didn't bother me and i was eager to do it. you and i both worked with people from the defense department's office of special plans or o s p in the run up to the iraq war. this was an unusual and highly politicized group. in the defense department, that was led by a close former aid to vice president dick cheney by the name of bill ludy. i found ludy to be a dangerous ideologue and i think you did too. it was ludy and his cohorts in the office of special plans who pushed the idea of i'm a shelby and iraqi dissidents and one of the most corrupt people i have ever met in my life as a possible replacement for saddam hussein. when chelsea fell apart under the weight of on corruption the sea, i dropped him. but bill ludy and o s p continued to support shelby. and the notion that chelsea could lead men into

battle in iraq. that of course was a pipe dream. tell us what things were like in o. s p at that time, tell us about how the intelligence community analysis on iraq was politicized. in order to support a war agenda. they took little bits and pieces of intel, some approved in a back story and promoted a story line. that dumb sodomy st who really was standing up for not not ending up for a strong iraqi. why did he, you know, he's fighting with years ago before, with kuwait because of oil because he says this is a national resource. and so he's doing things that, oh and of course decided to go off the petro dollar. that's really dangerous. but dumb. so saddam hussein is behaving as a independent nationalist person who isn't going to take orders from the united states. that isn't pleasing either states not now. not then, not 40 years before that. so this how, you know, charlie b i, they said, well,

we'll, we'll, you'll do what we say we'll, we'll sponsor him. you know, it's funny, i hate to say this, but you know, it is, it shall be or you know, kolinski which, why am i talking about? i don't, i don't even know but this pattern that the new kinds of people like you know, john bolton, again, i mentioned him because he says what's hard to do cruise yours are a lot of hard work to conduct the school cuz we've done it before. well, course that's, that's what they do. they figure out how they can control another country and specifically on other countries resources. and of course with iraq, those resources are primarily oil, but also geography. and they wanted it, and he would, they couldn't work lists up with who same they could work with chalabi. they didn't have it or he's, you know, he's didn't, he's a democrat, he's all these people. he's all these. so you know, the people love him. i mean, the stuff was even the until that we had was obviously false. but it didn't matter

because if you could put it on the front page of the new york times in the washington post, you could influence congress. you could influence think tanks. you could, you could shape a fantasy and then, and then try to make that happen. and again, you know, i think that's pretty serious to use the military. i don't think it's, i think if you got to kill people, if you're gonna have a war and i be for a serious reason, it ought to be for a valid national defense justification. i mean, i'm still, i'm old fashioned. i think if, if this country goes to war, it, the congress should declare war, you know, that's what the constitution says. these folks, i don't believe any of that. and in fact, they are not even familiar with the constitution. that is a dead letter to them. they are, they play a game of self enrichment, of course, an advocacy of, of philosophy, of a. i hate to say world domination, but certainly at the time of middle east domination and know shall be,

was part of that. and they sold it, but it's a created story. and of course, so you know, when child died some years ago i, i wrote a not really tongue in cheek obituary, but i did write a column for li rockwell and, you know, i mean, he was a tool that the neocons used a willing tool of course, he believes the propaganda, but they, you know, it's the effort that they put in to promoting their fantasies and the things that they use and the people that they kill in the money that they spend to promote their fantasies. again, none of it is constitutional and none of it is, is moral. none of it is right. and yet it hasn't stopped. it has continued shelby's one example. you're watching the whistle blowers were speaking with former us air force, colonel and pentagon intelligence analyst,

karen quick koski. when we get back from a short break, we'll ask her about the fallout from that faithful decision to go to war with iraq . stay tuned. will be right back. 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah, march the 112011. the largest earthquake ever recorded in japan is registered. a 14 meter tsunami, devastates the fukushima each and nuclear power plant. a lot more in the nuclear, ian, does it flooded, sparking and horrific disaster with

a i old sort of a funny if actually the of an italian junior is living in japan, decided to go to the area of the nuclear meltdown from fukushima immediately. but i remember for sure, a georgia tech. okay, so i'd love to talk to somebody about the with a 4 year investigation starts watch on r t a got brewer? yep. i got, i mean, i think mike, if i mean should, but so i should. why did it say that he didn't play dear? can you? i don't know a with

more giving it away. yeah. for sure. i do. the brower nice will yeah, it was a shed. so what is can we afford for continuous ways? certainly coaching. yep. when to put on a woodson chin, i pulled up put your to, to the woods a void. so why so couple of you do yourself. now you don't need to discuss that a little bit more short on a 0. what is some number on your smith to reason for you on the one come up? maybe it wasn't. it was what was it was it? was it simply let me have you been here because he's not a person was just so sure of you and each of them rich a lot, but what i should not approach. right?

yes. all the way to, to see maybe you should more just renew your hosting your model with as you go on cheap energy coming from last year, wash and gas chip and suppose affordable and ship. you are in a stable which has been both, not the case. it is a will, that is no longer there. a it's a so phone. if i can't that i need a shouldn't need to pick up. as soon as their muslim ship was put for about new

dealing, new when you bought used commercial money. and you can probably schedule that meeting or to who you know who you are. why do you decide on sanctions, your sanction country? a section of course, because you want to change the behavior of government because person why that hasn't happened sanctions hasn't function ah welcome back to the whistleblower. 2 i'm john, curiosity. we're speaking to former u. s. air force lieutenant colonel and pentagon intelligence analyst, karen quite koski about the decision to go to war in iraq based on false and politicized intelligence. karen, thanks again for being with us 1015. upon average shelby's death, you wrote a p t that in retrospect, the period just before the iraq war that the truth could be told and the culprits

could be held accountable. that seems now to have been a naive dream in 2003 shelby was on track to become the new leader of iraq. just as soon as paul wolfowitz is projected cakewalk. that was what he called. the war was finished. towards this end, he was using and being used by the neoconservative cabal of bush cheney appointees . and the pentagon, the national security council, and the state department, unquote. and then you said something that strikes me as critically important even today. you said that many of the people who dragged us into war in 2003 continued to advise the obama administration as late as 2015. and some of those people are still in government today. is it even possible to save ourselves. busy from warmongers and war criminals, when they're practically embedded, permanently in the government. no. as long as they are embedded permanently, which we have seen. and it's not just victoria new and it's lots of. they're in

permanently embedded in the government, and it is impossible to do it as long as they are there to have a different foreign policy. what you want to think. but neoconservatism is not what the american people want. that's not what they believe in. that's not the foreign policy they wish to pursue. and yet we have non elected bureaucrats appointees who persist in is revolving door between government service. think tank, government service, think tanks, sometimes of a position in congress back to the government service. can't be fired, keep getting appointed, keep getting confirmed in some cases. i mean there are confirming, i mean, this is a different subject. you remember when they confirmed a gene, a hassle? what is the process? what is the purpose of this process? if they can confirm that one on a wire confirmation, just just pick the people you want to put them in there. why? why rubber stamp it's? it's humiliating. but yeah, these folks have to go and our foreign policy in particular military policy. this

is a foreign policy, i am talking about military policy. it seems like everything is aggressive, militaristic, policy, state department contributes to it. some of the other agencies contribute to the d, o, d, intel c i. they all contribute to a foreign slash military slash security policy. they take trillions of dollars a year. they cost trillions of dollars a year and they don't do any good. so i'm ready for radical change. and i think really that, that they have to go and the budgets have to be shrunk to the level of people for congress would declare that were, you know, we didn't had that bit, not either declared war since we're, we're to, so you take vietnam very and pop, that unpopularity was memorialized in music and poetry and books and, and movies and riots and people getting killed by national car, you know, was not

a popular war. and it was also, we could have prevented it if they had consulted with the congress and let the house have a vote and say, do we want to make war in vietnam if they would have to justify it? and they don't like that, so they don't bother with it. and guess what, that should that i don't think it's legal and don't think it's constitutional. and if you want to save the country as a republic, if you want to have a constitution that matters and, and certainly the, the, the bill of rights and some of these things in the framework of our government. it is something that other countries admire. it's something that we treasure, you know, we've lasted for 240 years we're, it's kind of a good thing. if you want to keep it. we've got to do something about washington because washington is not abide by that in any way, shape or form. they don't respect it and they basically pay lip service to the people's work, i say, cut their budget. so you know, just and, and they may end up cutting about if the country goes bankrupt, where they're going to do pay them 1st. it probably will,

but i don't think that the, the expense that the united states has and, you know, this multi polar world that is already here. but let's say we're, we don't wanna admit that it's coming. okay, it's, it's either it's already here which it is, or you can say it's coming. but in any case, united states won't be the global policeman. that may be an opportunity to have a more defensive and peaceful and pro trade foreign policy where we can share the good things that make america great. but we're not trying to control everybody else's resources, which again, is totally what these towards her pell. you know, we're not fighting for democracy. it, we've never, i can't think of any, maybe we have and you may know, but i can't think of any time we fought for democracy. we have fought for other people's resources. karen, you were inside the pentagon on 911. you later wrote that following the attack and as the u. s. approached, we're, we're the rock. you quote witness neoconservative agenda bearers within

o. s p u. syrup measured and carefully considered assessments. portion of intelligence analysis, promulgate what were in fact falsehoods, to both congress and the executive office of the president. on quote, later you went on to become a source for knight ridder, the news agency that broke many of the stories related to the iraq war, knight ridder was always skeptical of the information being released by the bush administration and the pentagon. you also appeared in the award winning documentary film, why we fight? how did you make that transition from making your revelations within the chain of command to going public? well, i mean, it was the incredible amount of frustration i. busy you know, what, seeing how information was being misused and manipulated in order to get us into a war. i mean, an actual, you know, not just like, you know, we say oh, you cranes fighting a war and we're giving them billions and billions of dollars. this was

a war where americans were going to go over there and fight, you know, something that, that should be a serious matter and it should be based on fact. and yet it, all this was created. you know, stories were told to different shane, so that one guy would call the other guy and say, well, can you confirm this? oh, sure, i saw the same thing, must be true. it was a severe amount of frustration. and again, you know, if you have to be in the military for, you know, 15 or 16 years, you kind of have seen things, you kind of at least i had grown into my own. i again, i trusted my assessment of things where i might not of if i'd been younger, but i'd seen enough that i did. i said this, this makes no sense. and plus, of course it was just me. i had lots of friends who would tell me their end of the story from other office is what was happening. and no, none of none of them know most people felt like they couldn't speak out,

but i didn't feel that way. i was going to retire was playing to retires at my earliest opportunity even before this. so and, and i will afterwards. and i think that makes a difference. and you know, another thing, and i don't know if we talked about it if it's been observed, but it's kind of a, i was the bread winner for my family for many, many years. but they say that women, this is maybe it's a stereotype, maybe it's changed, but i'm born in 1960. so i came up to the eighty's. you know that women don't define, they're worse as much through their employment, through their jobs as maybe men do. so for me, i didn't see this as this is really going to ruin my career. i mean, it would have, if i stayed, is there snow dad? i couldn't stay in but them, but i didn't see that as a huge issue wasn't to me, it was far more important to to really share the information with somebody that

could see if it was worth anything and maybe combat some of the lives just that, that felt important to me, but also i did not, i wasn't totally, you know, i wasn't so worried about my reputation as a, as an officer. push it because and again, because i believed in the constitution, and i do think, and this is, you know, we see this, i'm not a big time whistleblower. like who's, who's really suffered from it. like, like, you have and also snowden, you know, but all of us had some us, we put value in the constitution. we thought it was a serious document. we thought it was a document that our country would works would, would live by. it's particularly our leaders and so on it, you know, really, i mean, it makes you angry when you see that it's being ignored, that they don't care that there are countries going down

a track that is lawless. and based on purposeful and fantastical lies. and a manipulation of the media and the manipulation of congress is very upsetting. but i think it was upsetting to a lot of people, but again, i didn't see this is oh, this is going to ruin my career. and then people will be talking about me. they'll say, oh, what, you know, she, she had a great group but then she just threw it away. i didn't even that didn't even cross my mind. it had nothing to do with anything. and i, i wish we had more people who really would care more about their principles and what they know to be right and wrong. even if i don't agree with them, i don't care. i wish they would, would people just would trust their own sense of right and wrong, more than, than what their boss is. tell them because my boss is deluding was my direct boss. so what, you know, what does that say? yeah, you should, i should, i have listened to him and,

and looked up to him in such a way. oh, he knows better than me. i don't think so. and i hope, i hope i hope that generations behind us, younger people than us have embraced that attitude, that they can make their own judgment. they can use their own brain. they can. now, you know, you want to be crazy, was it? you know, if you're ignorant and you sank crazy, think crazy things and you believe them. ok fine. but really take the risk because our country has gotten a really, really bad pass and it's not just been recently. i mean, it's been over the past, really the past century, but my whole life time woman in 1960, started military life when i was in my early twenties, really my whole life time. i have witnessed terrible irrigation of the constitution and terrible a terrible future, a terrible presence of our country,

bad behavior by united states of america. and it's, it's in, it's not right. i can't be proud of. and i should be able to be proud of my country we should all past. but that may be too much to ask. we will probably never find ourselves in a position where people in positions of authority or power do something simply because it's the right thing to do. and sometimes when they make their decisions, especially when those decisions are based on cynical and for they may seem, maintain a cost. remember that integrity is honesty, is telling the truth to others and no legacy is so rich as honesty. thank you again to our guest. karen quite cowski and thanks to you for joining us for another episode of the whistle blows until next time. 2 2 ah,

at this hour, american and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm iraq, to free its people, and to defend the world from great. who's with, [000:00:00;00] with us to move that over to, you know,

by jo. she took the bomb with mr. chisel on the, on the wall? no, she sequential. and so for you to see if there was some, the william, which is a desk, that's the up orders to bill. yet that was a new also say i took the decision. ah, which federal sharp with with diplomatic ties and we opened that ride buses. this is a move,

though with enormous geo political implications in the back is the country's