[000:00:00;00] ah, ah, ah hello and welcome to crossed out. were all things are considered. i'm peter live else. there are more calls for a ceasefire or some kind of negotiated settlement of ukraine conflict. some natal leaders have warned zalinski will have to make some difficult decisions. however, the west has little interest in russia's plan to restore the peace. that plan is in plain view. ah discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess, george samuel leon,

budapest. he's a podcast or at the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals, and in st. petersburg across to alexandra tom. he is a senior lecture at st. petersburg state institute of technology. i joan across top rolls and the fact that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate altura with georgia in budapest, georgia, as i said in my, my introduction, the whole focus of in the western world on this conflict in ukraine is to somehow get it settlement that is the preferential to ukraine. and of course, to which it's nato backers and, but if, if you flip the coin, i think you, it would be much easier to resolve this conflict if you took rushes interest into consideration. and then it's never done. and that's one of the problems in moving forward, because if there is, if there is no needed there, there is no recognition of a legitimate security interest. this is not going to end. well, it's good again, it's going to and very badly, i think for all parties involved. go ahead there. you summarize

a perfect the pizza. i this whole conflict started. i say, because russia security concerns have not been addressed for around 30 years, but more more pertinently, for last 8 years, while nato, you know, as his boast, was building up ukraine as a, a battleship director, russia. and then of course, when a president, putin issued his to draw off documents for some sort of a permanent security architecture for europe along the lines of the helsinki final like of the 1970s, the americans. and then, of course, nato just simply say that we're not, we're not interested. there isn't going to be any kind of a settlement unless russia security concerns are taken into account. and yet when one reads all the media accounts and one on reads all the story as well that,

that those sholtes and macro pushing zalinski book, what give us one good counter offensive. and then once this counter offensive, you'll succeed, then we'll be ready to negotiate. i mean, they know that you can't negotiate anything until you understand the position of the other party and, and that's why the will be in a western position is so ludicrous than this. this war cannot be settled unless the west simply realizes that he has to take into account what started this whole thing, namely russia, security concerns. yeah, a health center in st. petersburg. the one of the things i find very tragic in it's a, it's kind of an impoverished way of thinking is this is georgia said now given will give us one good offensive, you know, fallback some territory. then we'll sit down and negotiate is if russia be willing to do that, ok, assume that russia would do that if they were asked for because that the problem in

it would, they approach from the west, which is very, very poorly thought out other hemorrhaging russia, which is probably one of the, probably the most important issue that has not this has nothing to do with ukraine . but even if, if there was even a unilateral cease fire on the part of the ukrainians that they, they went, nato countries would do is just, you know, rebuild up ukraine's forces to start all over again. and there's no sane person in moscow would allow that to happen because they watch for 8 years. how nature built up ukraine and then we had this. okay, why would a wait another 8 years. wait, wait 8 weeks. go ahead. el center. i think part of what we're seeing from the west, as we've talked about before, is that there is a split in the u. s. lead between those who support continuing this adventure and ukraine and continuing to fund the effort and arm the efforts. and those who are

seeing that they're not going to accomplish the west goals. so one thing that i thought was pretty interesting recently is cameron hume, who was a former ambassador from the us. he has come out recently criticizing anthony blink and the secretary of state for his handling of international relations, particularly regarding russia. so i don't think that that sort of commentary is just random. i would think that somebody with connections like that a human has connections with the council on foreign relations. so it looks like he's part of this effort from some people in washington to say, look, we're not accomplishing western interests in the ukraine. so does it make sense to continue pouring all this money and all of these resources into it? and i think it's a really good point that lincoln is, is he's not so much of a diplomat in the traditional sense. he is more of an ideologue and

a political operator if you look at his career history. and that comes out in the way that he handles himself on the international stage. so he goes to meetings with the chinese and tries to chide them about what they're doing. and he goes in to meetings with the saudis and criticizes them on their internal affairs. and he is really not making any friends with his attitude on the world stage. so he's weakening the position of the u. s. and i think that some of lease in washington are starting to get fed up with this really narrow minded, extreme push to continue trying to fight this war, the ukraine, regardless of what outcomes we're seeing on the ground. yeah, i mean with the church it allison brings up some very good points here. but again, the, the, the strategy that you can even call it a strategy. it's more kind of a messianic crusade, ideologically driven, the again, the, the, the,

the entire approach, the u. s. in its allies have pursued as it, it's an anti russia policy. it's not a pro ukraine policy again, the way you get ok if a supposition is performed badly, you're always going to get a bad outcome. and this is what this is. what's happened in this case? yes, that, that, that's unquestionably the case. it. so it's all, it's not really about ukraine. i mean that, that's why we need, we need to sort of move away from any kind of discussion. this is about helping ukraine. this is an effort to arm your brain or anything on it. it isn't about your grade. this is a, a war using ukraine as a proxy in order to defeat, once a, for all russia, with it, with the hope that somehow you know, put in will be gone. you'll be overthrown. and some kind of a pro, western puppet regime will take over in moscow. and then essentially, you know, whatever's left or russia will be entirely at the mercy of later,

that's the ultimate objective. and people such as a blinking and, and biden unusual. and, you know, that's how they think that's their ideological perspective, and they're not just going to let it go. and that's why i've got the, you know, foster rational voices will say, well, i think that doesn't make any sense as a ludicrously ambitious goal, but cannot succeed. but if, if people like that had prevailed at the beginning, we wouldn't be where we are. you know, russia were accomplished, it's goals very early on last spring and would now be enjoying a peaceful as secure prism. we don't have that. instead, the, you know, the, the united states decided to make a stand here. and that's why where we are, i think that's why it's such a dangerous situation because it's very difficult for the united states to step up . it's very interesting a you have to look at the, the, the sense of causation years. because there is been over the last couple of years, not an original idea,

but russia and china moving closer together. this has been going on for a long time. people suddenly wake up to it here. and so, i mean, the policy is we have to knock russia out when to use ukraine. we're going to knock them out before they get too close to china. well that, that horse left the stable barry long time ago. and now with this proxy more ukraine, it's only accelerated, it be kind of constituting an alliance, a russian chinese alliance. i mean, they, they misunderstood what was going on. and their actions of actually created the opposite that they wanted. alexander. yeah, that's absolutely true. i think on the international stage, you have to look at china and russia as being one entity effectively because they're both being encircled by nato forces. and neither of them like it naturally. so when they see what nato can do, the break up,

the former yugoslavia being involved in afghanistan, iraq, libya, the list goes on and they have a good reason to not be happy about that. keep going and economically, your point is well taken by chinese investors who have been pulling their money out of swiss banks because they're concerned that they're, you know, their resources may be frozen in the same way that russian assets abroad were frozen by the us. so the u. s. as kind of overstepped over played its hand. it's been so aggressive in pursuing its or against russia that they spoke to the rest of the world. people don't want to do business with a bullying regime like this. so that's also been shown by recent reconciliation efforts between iran and saudi arabia hawks that took place recently in china. and that's also very significant because here is china stepping into the middle east to

try and brokers some agreements between parties that historically do not get along very well. and that also is going to have an effect on the situation in israel, because israel and saudi arabia for a long time have gotten along pretty pretty well. and saudi arabia has refrained from criticizing their actions too heavily. so now when i ran into israel, our enemies, so with saudi arabia and iran attempting to re establish relations that doesn't look good for israel's influence. and there are russian forces and syria, which are providing a check against israeli attacks on, has below, or iranian targets in syria. so as the u. s. and the us ability to influence the situation in the middle east is declining. it's causing a decline and israel's influence in the region as well. so to some actors in the us, and in israel,

it may look like the only way out of this spiral that they're finding themselves in is to push ever harder on what's going on in ukraine. maybe they think that if they can break the rush military then they can trigger it said this to george many times in our podcast. i always get the sense there in the casino and that's rude. let. they just keep rolling the, you know, fitting the wheel and seeing the winning number will come up. ok. you know, george, we have a minute before we go to the break. what is it? it's 10 rounds, 11 rounds of sanctions have been worked the 1st round and why? what if it doesn't have the impact you want? why do you keep hunkering down? it doesn't make any sense to me, george pushing to the case. they think that they keep doing it, and eventually they will call a point at which russia will collapse just like they, russia will supposedly collapse militarily or russia will run out of misses and artillery shells and the soldiers will mutiny or the russian government will collapse, put and will be overthrown. and so the, the russian economy will collapse in,

that'll be shortages even though they were all the u. k. media reporting, you know, the contrasting the empty shells in the supermarkets, in the u. k. with the fall, a supermarket, the rushes at her sanctions, and we're the ones who don't have enough new ration done to get sanctioned in the end. but i totally, i have to go to a heartbreaking after that hard break. we'll continue our discussion on some real estate with our tea. ah ah, lou needs to come to rush in the state little narrative. i've stayed as i'm phone and ignore some scheme div,

asking him then i'll slap a group in 55 when. okay, so 9 is 25 and speaking. when else calls with will van in the european union? the kremlin? yup. machines. the state on russia for date and school r t spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all band to on you to a with a young person with poor. yup. agree, mused i think, mike, i mean she was so out of sheet. why did it say you did?

30. yep. what did you i don't know. very important thing with it or more and living with i do the brower from nice or yeah. do the shed. so what is can we afford to live in serious ways? certainly total coaching. yep. and the to the other, but a woodson. chim. i put your to the, to the woods, to the specialist lookout wasted. i will get the invoice, vice vocabulary, both the initials i need to discuss that a little bit more water controllers. i thought this is ms. are you on the when come up before and it wasn't, it was what was the, what was it. so let me ask a couple,

a couple question was just fish review and each of them rich a lot, but i should know the post office with all the way to, to see maybe should more just also of any of course with with well connect across that were all things are considered peter le bell? this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real bits. ah. let's go back to georgia in budapest, georgia. i sent in my introduction, that russia's plan for restoring pieces in plain view. and we go back to december 17th,

2021. when russia sent to nato and to the united states. it's proposals basically recognizing the individual indivisibility of, of security, nato expansion and rushes, roll rushes place in the pan european security architecture. which of course is all kind of going back to the original thinking about security of do the health think he process which you've already brought up in this program that's, that's viable. i don't think that's going to change. it hasn't changed even after a year of conflict. george? no, no, it's right. i mean, because what the russians was seeking some recognition from the west that what the west has been doing for 30 years, this native expansion essentially creating this block, this military blocks. that is clearly surrounding russia and he can get russia

that this cannot go on. the russian just simply cannot accept military alliance, only as borders particularly got alliance has, is targeted russia as their primary res, after labor explicit about their explicit. and you know, particularly when we've had the past decade of this constant barrels of angie rushing, propping, and all the sanctions, the sanctions didn't start off to the launch of the special with the choppers. we've had all the magnet ski sanctions. we had all the sanctions about supposed russian interference in the us elections. there been wave off the wave of sanctions . and russia sees this military alliance is moving towards our borders. you know, the one country that is, is our ally. bill rose is the comp, some targets of would be colorado illusions. they want us to be totally surrounded by nature and rushes. we can take this anymore. this is an absolutely exist central

flag for us. and, you know, with responses, we're not even going to talk about it, you know, russia just isn't strong enough to dictate times to us. well, you know, this, this was the effects. and although the europe, right, any kind of negotiated outcome will have to recognize that you can't let nature cannot go on as it's been doing because they will be more was and they'll be even more deadly. was george competed up really well because they, the west is obsessed with. again, it's ideologically obsess. democracy hopper see all of this kind of nonsense that they throw out. and then they talk about ukraine's security. and it's relationship with the north atlantic treaty organization. they're focused on ukraine's borders. it's security. but he can't, it can, it does. at the same token,

they can't recognize that russia has security interest as well. that's, that's, that you know, that that's what's missing right here. and that's where that is keeping any kind of settlement far out of reach, because up until they recognize russia have security interests. there's going to be no peace in europe. i think victoria new and also recently just admitted that the conflict in ukraine is about the stabilizing the russian government and trying to remove from power. so this, you know, the talk about ukraine and territorial integrity that i would consider to be just wallpapering for their real motives, which are clear enough even before noon said anything about it that it was all directed against russia. so it seems that whatever portion of your train is not taken under the control of russia, that's going to effectively be part of nato. whether it's admitted officially or

not. in some sense of the russian attempt to remove nato from its borders through this war has failed. because now we do have an, an nato army in ukraine, and it's difficult to get figures on it, but there's up 220000. perhaps the mercenaries, maybe 10000 of them from poland. the number is very all the time. so in that sense, russia is going to have to, if they can't find a diplomatic solution that actually removes nato from ukraine, then they're going to have to keep going further and further west in order to achieve their goals of removing nato's presence from that territory. however, i also wonder, you know, this is turning into a time issue for the us. it seems to me that russia is able to continue this war indefinitely. while the us seems to be running more on a schedule, because already the u. s. is stretched between the ukraine front and the taiwan

front weapons manufacturers are several years behind delivery and taiwan isn't getting the weapons that they have ordered. so the u. s. is getting stressed and nato partners and e. u partners are not completely happy with the situation due to the economic issues that germany has suffered in particular with energy prices. the u. k. has been hit with energy prices going up. and this is all a result of the sanctions and the ongoing war in the you in the ukraine, and the u. s. isn't letting its partners out of this situation. so it's putting pressure on nato much more, i think, than it's putting pressure on russia. well yeah, it's a very interesting point, george, and i've always said that nato was never, never designed actually to fight a war like disappear power. ok. it was a, i'm in georgia, i bit older. it was always kind of it a bit of

a dinner club. okay. it wasn't designed to do actually be a military, i mean in a, in a conventional sense. it was more political and, and this is what they faced georgia. let's talk about the issue of d. i d notification because that's the the 2nd prong that is have been never really been discussed much in the west. they just think is frivolous. but you and i know exactly what that means. the recipe regime change. you cannot have the current regime still in power. ok, and that is something that i'm on the west is going to have to contend with. and certainly mr. zalinski is going to have to contend with. because we all know that anyone in ukraine in power make some kind of concession, large concessions, number of concessions. um, they're, they're not going to be around much longer after they do that it. we know that go ahead. george. yes that's, that's exactly that in russia's goals out while they were limited back in the last of february,

clearly now has to include regime change in care because i cannot allow this zelinski gang, this rabidly raso phobic a crowd to stay in power. i mean, what, you know, what happens, let's say there's an armistice as a some sort of peace agreement. they will immediately start reaffirming we know that's exactly what nature is going to do. i mean, they're going to do what they did in 2014 and just restart this all over again in 510 years time. so russia has to make a drastic change. and i mean, and that's over all this. i mean, whenever america has sport is, was america who is pursued regime change in, or whether it's a regime change. you saw the regime change in iraq. i mean, they publicly called for, you know, barella sat, us to go. i mean, it's ultimately, that's how you win the war. you have to remove the source of your problems. and, and in this case, clearly, you know, this is these landscaping. now they come in this new plan, which is that we will, we will call russia russia anymore. which is called

a drum boscoe via credit card allow this historically a entity like this, you know, which a bum darren stand on your border. so it regime change has to be out of the ultimate war objects. if it doesn't, alexander assist mystifying for me. i can understand zalinski is in his regime there, russo phobic attitude because they have nato at their back to their funding. so keep protecting us. there's no downside delay, but the longer this goes on, the entire european security architecture is very unstable. it's very vulnerable and of course, you know, there are people like victoria new and, and jake sullivan and they blink and they have a very long history of wanting to see the end of the russian federation. and that this is obvious stuff that you can learn. but you know, what about the people in the rest of europe?

i mean, this is not their crusade. okay. it's, it is a crusade of elites in a very specific group of beliefs. go ahead. alexandra. yeah, you're absolutely right about that. i think it recently came out how in march last year, just after the russian counter attacks in done boston and other parts of the ukraine zelinski wanted to actually negotiate. and he was hoping to, you know, find a diplomatic solution to this right at the beginning. but the state department came in and the u. s. handlers came in and said, no, you can't do that. we have a war to fight here. so it's quite clear that the ukraine has become an apparatus, the state department in the same way that the e u. is as well we all remember, newland call that was league where she was describing her disdain for the you. and i think you can only do that if you have effective control over the organization.

so that's the problem that europe finds itself in. it's effectively a protector, it of the united states, regardless of what nato may call itself, or how it may brand itself, you find itself trains itself and a protector position. so it doesn't have the ability to lead an independent policy. and that's been seen by germany, germany, his interests are in tighter economic cooperation with russia. and that's how we got the north stream pipelines. and that's not in the interest of a us protexture it. and that's how we got the north stream pipelines destroyed as seem. workers came out with his studies of how about probably happened and indicate that the u. s. was involved, which doesn't really surprise anybody. you know, you had bite and going out there saying we're going to end it and we're almost out

of time. but george, you know, sergeant schultz is we put referred to him on this boat and went to washington. what for like a day and a half, maybe less than that one hour visit with the president of the united states. no press coverage went back. so he was just given his marching orders. wasn't he 30 seconds george marking out as well. that's the thing. europe's the least. he's not in any of sense representative of your, of interest. it's an american bought and paid for trained lead and they represent openly, america's interest. yeah. well, you ended the program almost exactly on time. one thing we're going to be definitely looking at as of, as mentioned here, is that this reproach mount have saudi arabia and iran, which is very, very important. so viewers, ross, like we'll see that next week as all the time. i want to thank our guests in st. petersburg and in budapest on what they are viewers for watching us here at r t c and x. i'm remember ah

ah ah ah ah, and i to visit with boss with you. i just need them grab my school to complete the key at the when oceans key. the process is to do a lot more complete with us for go get a you guys to phone and send the full could i use, did you?

i need video with you with the proxy a professional and did you do you have a list of all but yet with ah a we must further advance our modernization drive in terms of national defense and for in china. smelled to read into great wolfstein. teaching thing delivers closing remarks that the countries annual 2 sessions political events say that while the nation has been bullied in the past. modernization is the key to future challenges for the head of rushers. wagner private military group says the battle for a key ukrainian stronghold is intense. ukrainian commander admits that russian troops a close again and to 5 routes are being cut off. financial markets and aid europe.