ah, i'm after is answered. welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from dubai and the u. e. tomorrow will be 12 years to the day since the u. s. u. k. and france began their bombardment of libya using un security council resolution. $9073.00 is justification. and within months africa's richest capital nation was devastated. is leader mammography brutally assassinated thanks to nato aerial bombardment. to day libya is at best a failed state. joining me today from munich, germany, the former official spokesperson for the late mammography. doctor mussa abraham. thank you so much a most of a coming back on before we get to the future. rob, i suppose i have to ask you what sir, or what your reflections are 12 years on. and they're reminders of your role as you tried to as you see it. stop the catastrophe. thank you actually, and for having me here again, when your excellent sure. of course, to morrow,

marks, 12 years after the nato attack, violent aggressive attack against my country. that went on for 8 months, in which tens of thousands of libyans, civilian and military personnel died. the country lays on groins all sectors of the economy and society. stated libya is a failed states, and its neighbors are also feeling the consequences of such a military intervention. we spoke to the whole world to the international community before the attack for weeks. i personally, as the spokesperson for the libyan government, suggested many peaceful and lee and on the ground solutions to the international community and united nations. we were never taken seriously. we were ridiculed an attack,

attacked in the mainstream media centers of west and power. libyans actually heated to call and many tribal conferences were held before and it was many and libby and societal meetings and delegations were moving all around the country, trying to find a solution to the very small. as a matter of fact, civil conflict of me can call it that, that took place in very small pockets of the libyan land. but the lies and the false holland of the international meeting stream, mid the media will let me just get to a live where you would say it was a lie because i mean, there was frances fukuyama that academic. there was a national endowment for democracy is intellectuals, and those of the i c. c, chief prosecutor louis moreno ocampo, former now he was saying in this was were amplified by your mainstream. either we

a paraphrase again. he basically said we have information. there was a policy to rape and libya, those who were against it, apparently her apparently gadhafi used it to punish people. and i know amnesty international came out against that. i. c. c, a, prosecutors, her a quote. but that's the kind of thing that i, well, you were involved in is what was going around the mainstream media, a regime that used rape. people are much more intelligent than that. libya now let's assume it's the scene of the crime has been for 12 years and the total control of the west, all of its institutions archive documents, t, v. 's street cities and villages have been under total control of the u. n. why haven't they? in 12 years found any evidence for the charges that accused us of not just re,

they accused us of killing $10000.00 civilians within 5 days of the start of the trouble. they accuse us afraid being 8000 libby and women ridiculous. they accused us of flattening whole neighborhoods in tripoli, with air raids in the 1st week. they accused us of importing more than 20000 free can mercenaries into the country. we are not supernatural magicians actually, and if these crimes own this scandal occurred in 12 years, they would have found the victims, their families, the streets in which these crimes where taking place and libya is a very tribal very is i'm a very society people are very linked to each other, they are all cousins and friends and neighbors. you can never commit such a run this crimes in the 1st place, let alone hide and hide the evidence. for 12 years,

my understanding is even without evidence, the journalists who are amplifying those stories of all one awards for their work in amplifying what you say are in fact complete lies. so what happened to the elections? i mean, safe gadhafi who, you know, came down from his mountain headquarters and suddenly the elections that were due to be held suddenly don't happen. and everyone again in mainstream media was saying there's a process. everything is going to be ok. i don't know whether that men install a western puppet, but save good fees just by as president, seem to stop the elections in quotes. yeah. think of this confederate, the international community, of course, it's the west that has the international community. they said that they were 100 percent ready to hold free and democratic elections in libya. almost 50 years ago. everything was in place that you were and i was, you know, had it's

a point in the country. and suddenly civil slam, of course, with bravery and courage and with the support of people, you know, i'm not going to have a son in case people don't know. that's fabulous. save some stuff. he's junior, he went to the official election place, presented his formal paper. that is just the, just as any residential candidate. this should have been welcome as a good progressive piece for the step to avoid, including all sectors of libya, society, and think any bus ability of conflict on the country. immediately the american ambassador and the british ambassador, they said, oh, there are no complications. and the gods to who can present themselves to be in the president of leave yet. and we need to reconsider the whole process to make sure that there are no complications in the future. who are you to decide in the future

of libya and who are you as a foreign ambassador to decide who that would be and people can choose. you see this, take us back to the very idea. she was the west one. libya is chaos and maintenance of the scales they want for a year from military conflict, them from the b and then for another year, some fake elections done for the parliament for the bus. and then for another year, some tribal conflicts on the borders with chad and then some smuggling smuggling of african workers to be sold as slaves on the coast and city cities of libya. and they change the game like the face of the game of the game every year when they want the election 3 years ago. this was just another phase that they wanted to learn and, and therefore maintain chaos and libya simple as duffy would have ended this game completely and would have one with a landslide, the election, the libya,

libya know that libya be stalked to each other, that we meet with our enemies and libya, they're not our enemies anymore. from 2011, we have negotiations. dialogue. we rely on our religion on our common identity in our history of you had that getting the invaders from outside and the west is care . the west is scared of our common identity. common goal, common interests and works is very hard just like a did it in iraq. like i didn't see i could, didn't get to stand like it's trying to do in many other countries. and simply slum is not an individual is a movement and he is, he's present, you know, way wherein g y, where, where is he in any case? i mean, i should say, i mean, i remember him in london when he was kind of with the, the new liberal elites in british society. did he still support the things you were just expressing where the old ideas of is the father rather than

we could easily just become another american puppet and where is the white honey come on this program? well yeah for i will give you this for the international media for as is not there . you can't really interview him at the moment, but he is planning to talk to the live cable directly through whatever means he deems appropriate bucks. save a slum is nothing hiding every single libyan tribe. and i mean it's even the tribes that where he's enemies in 2011 every single libyan city. all of them they have met and are still meeting with 7 on a daily basis on daily basis. they have dialogue, they have negotiations, they are writing down projects and ideas, and they are in total agreement about the future of the, of the country. many of them actually are supporting 50 for the president of libya

. many don't, many don't, and that's fine. that's fine by 5th, very fine, but only because what we want is an inclusive. what is it consistent that is independent of for intervention? not just the libya, but there africa. just remember she, this is about africa, not just about libya. well, the un envoy, delay bodily as senegalese gentlemen. he seemed to accept his presidential nomination before the elections were stopped. who is this you and envoy because he was shown recently. i think he was showing it a picture of him self shaking hands with the ca, assets. kelly, i hafta whom indian circle mainstream media a russian asset. but of course he famous. he worked at the ca for the ca. so what do you think of this? you and envoy who is wandering around your country, talking about the future of your country is just unknown by action. he is the a,

you know, you and representatives in libya, they come and go imagine 8 representatives in 12 years. they doesn't work, though. no, he doesn't want his i think, and i think he galleys, african politician. i personally do not applaud his politics. he is a liberal leanings and his love for the western values. i think he is detached from the african continent and detached from the really struggles of the african nations . and if you actually read about he's not history and politics, you don't see him fighting for the independence of africa all for the sovereignty of african nations. so for me, he is just another figure. he's the eights and they come and go because they used them. the use them become the present solution, fake solutions. they just make sure that the game of chaos is maintained and they

make them sometimes americans like stephanie williams, sometimes arabs, lagos san selma, sometimes african like gerber, chilly. sometimes europeans, the idea is as the west is the controller of the whole scene, they walk very hard to keep things going. so people cannot stop and cancel this conspiracy against the country and be well aware and able to change the key points of the game. doctor mas abram, i'll stop you there. more from the late mamma get off his former spokesperson after this break. ah, ah

ah ah, welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with libby as former information minister and official spokesperson for the late one more. good afternoon, ms. abraham, tell me about after, as the wall street journal, the murdock vapor reported the de biden. c. i a boss, bill burns, more or less ordered after to expel the russian wagner group, which is it was fighting in ukraine from here. whoa, what is half does rule role and of the russian sir, been totally hoodwinked by ag, after hasta is was and is i see i since

he is just playing his part, what is planned for the country which is to keep it divided and keep it like an easy prey for western powers. he is a little bit more intelligent and a little bit more popular in the east of the country than politicians on general. because he was a friend and a comrade of can daffy for decades. then he switched sides towards the late eighty's. so he is a little bit more complicated, but certainly can he be brought around? surely if he came round to the idea of the tribes of safe gadhafi and i should say, nato bowling said there's a good isn't as popular as you maintain. could he be brought round? would he be useful in this struggle for a truly independent sovereign? libya well, the popular base that has to has in the east of the country is actually a terrific base of i myself trust. there's just so half as i mean,

yeah. let's. he had to deal with him because he had the power. he had the weapons that we provided to him by the west. he had the money that was provided to him by the americans. so they dealt with this reality. and they were able, indeed to clean if you like, the east part of the country from islamic terrorism. i think the wagner forces, later on plato ruined because the west, a lot different regional and international power was to intervene in the country to increase their kills. so the turkish military has a presence in libby or the military, the italian, the french, and some african countries as well. they have different levels of, of presence in the country. but then when they, the crane, the shoe came up, the west changed this course and started the landing that any wagner moves to leave a country under the split pastor in a tight corn. because he had his dealings with the french with, with,

with these groups as well. and now he has to decide, i believe, because he is originally i see, i said he will decide to side with the americans and the west. what happens to be an official today if they don't support nato policy, as regards the war against russia through ukraine? we don't have to guess very much care. the western ambassador, especially the american ambassador, rich of norland and the british investor, that they have been talking to be an official. and they have been warming everyone that they should get in line and should support the west, the efforts against russia. as a matter of fact, if you listen to the statements issued by a libyan politician from left on the east and west, you can hear the fear in their voices. and you can see how scripted, their statements are, and they are highlighting their support for ukraine and,

and highlighting the libya financial support, not just more of the support but financial support. i'm just speaking support debate that the president of the unity government was appointed by the west. of course, he actually went further than that and said himself that they are spending hello by logistics and financial support to the ukrainian people. and so, well more, more than the victims of the earthquake in turkey or in syria who are obviously syria or our products find or our brothers in africa and our borders. we have people in trouble in egypt and the new year and so down these are our neighbors. maybe ukraine is here, maybe who knows? i'll get to the money proper and i'm in a moment. but then nordstrom attack, when you heard about the see what her saying,

the joe biden to the blink and victoria unit, jake seller, destroyed, you believe that was in a sense, the libya playbook being played out in europe, that kind of destruction. we saw the greatest infrastructure terrorist act in his strong introduce chaos and maintain it. this is the playbook of the west. they do this through different means whether it's direct attack, so they attack be destroyed, police station destroyed military situations. infrastructure. so chaos is introduced and then them in detail in this case with political games. the same thing for, for ukraine, the same thing for iraq and syria. but the idea is the same. you have to shock people, you have to, but feel in their hearts, you have to divide them whether by their tribes or their religion or day of geography or whatever you can find to study and find. that's why

a kid that makes in the west are actually in alliance and intellectuals with the military power of their, of their country. so i believe that the gradient thing was planned not a year ago, not 2 years ago, but long, long time ago. but certainly since 2014, in which the west supported, the turmoil and ukraine supported the targeting of civilians and ukraine in the east of your grand. knowing that this will be why the country maybe will force russia to intervene to protect the civilians. and then the case is there, so what you do is you maintain it, you manage it, you know, of course, that many people will die. doesn't matter. that the idea is that the ukraine would be fully and the under your control. and you will push other countries like russia to go into war and then you have to punish them and you get the world behind. you have fail except yeah,

i mean it's slightly different just to live your example where arguably the entire world left you alone because even in washington, they're talking about all is flux and change and new deals in the breaking of us sanctions. i've got to ask you what you thought of china brokering a steel or it is a diplomatic deal between the kingdom of saudi arabia and iran, where i'm speaking to you in the u. e. that already had diplomatic representation back a few months back. what does it mean for libya that said that the arab world and the islamic world is getting together? if you have the chance of reading my articles published in the last 2 or 3 years, you will see that i time and again talk about the building of a new world order in which the south the global south is counted and has a place. what is happening between your abn iran under the supervision of

china is no small. indeed, this is a shift of international power. this is not wishful thinking. i think the east and the south are gonna come together and build a new system. it will take time. it's not something easy and this is something gradual. i think there's a shift of power. russia is playing a huge role in this positive. i believe china is also important. china is working slowly and gradually trying not to antagonize the west as much as possible. i think in the next few years, we're going to see brazil, south africa, and they g, possibly egypt, and many other countries joining in, in this shifting power structure. i'm hoping that this will allow the global south to free itself from the shackleton of global capitalism. hell,

but develop itself and find the maneuvering space away from the west. it's not a rosy picture. there is a lot of work to do, but i believe china. so del ray beach and iran this moment is a major movement. it's very similar to, you know, the moments of the 20th century like the swiss canal, for example, which ended the british empire as a cue to join the shanghai corporation organization to the ages of the company is body of china. just given that it's the anniversary, soccer z, then president of france, may be facing jail for corruption in any case. but do you think that david cameron and obama will ever be punished, face any justice or punishment for their role in the destruction of your country? well, i hope they will one day what we are working on is to hold them responsible in front of our people and the people of africa and i need them to do that usually gets

there. i mean the up to look at the money, i want to get all the money just finally very briefly, the money where is all the money? i mean by and said about oil fields in syria. we're going to walk in by the oil fields and we're going to take them from syria and they're stealing them right now . that's what's the drugs and pictures of who's stealing the libya? oil right now, who's made all the cash? i don't know where this is. libyans over and well, funds money is i don't know where the oil is, how the oil is getting out through the mediterranean, who's stealing it? the stephen, stephanie williams. she was the u and representative of libya just before about she . she herself admitted that $570000000000.00 were lost from libby since 2011. most of it through loss of oil revenue or through the 5th of libyan assets, or through what they call corruption,

which is of course linked to western powers. and libyan wealth indeed, while the smuggler away, especially in the 1st few years after the invasion, $1215.00 on 14th, but now with dealings with the official contracts that the libyan government is signing with everyone with the states u. k. a frowns. and lastly, actually just a month ago, it's a little bit in money is leaving libyan pockets without any positive return for the libyan people. any honest journalist who would go to live in cities look actually be in the schools, hospitals, roads, to sions of all the time. they will see a country that has been robbed that had been failed in every aspect, libya she, let's remember, was about to issue the african golden dinar,

the frog and was building the biggest gold reserve in the, in the continent to support the issuing of the golden the not, libya also is the founder of the african union in 1999, libya was also about to initiate the foundation of the african natural resources organization and the african unified army. all of these projects were real and they own and took the 1st steps toward being realized now from a leader and limby isn't rulings, and devastated. and even when it tries to move forward, like what's happened with the west, make sure that this does not take place. they introduce more elements of the chaos they make sure like. and the last few days is as we speak. now,

there are scared missions in the capital of libya and other it is a fuel citizens have already been killed. and there are also try bill conflicts in the, on the board of libya. and we know for sure that we have the slave market of african war because is still going own. that's what i think that's what as famously people said, that's what a black president of the united states did. ironically create save markets back again in africa. major nations obviously deny the corruption, but just how many se, cia or am i 6 offices? do you think are currently in libya and why do the tribal groups? why can't they meet with them? well, again, again, i'm going to quote for you, i was the west themself, say stephanie williams said that they believe in libya. there are 10 foreign military bases. that's 10 for military bases and 20000 foreign

fighters in the country. that's a country of 7000000. this is a huge army. the foreign military base is belong mainly to italy and france and turkey. these 3 countries. but there is a major intelligence presence of the british and the americans, more than direct military present airplanes, war planes, land on the la only be every, every day in the city and in the airport in, in tripoli. so there is a substantial prism that no one and the west and media talks about, well, no one discusses. after 12 years of promising libyans democracy, prosperity and human right. well, as you know, they old and i the do anything the line and they're all just helping foster democracy and they'll be talking with abraham. thank you. that's over the show.

we'll be back with a brand new episode on monday when we'll be speaking to the architect of shock and all talk to holland omen on the 20th anniversary of the us and british invasion of iraq going underground will now be broadcasting twice a week. every week on saturday and monday, so state june, meanwhile, you can keep in touch my role as social media, if it's not sensitive in your country and had to watch channel bang on the ground tv on rumbled on. com to watch new and old episodes of going undergrad to very soon, ah ah, ah, ah,

march 20th 2003, the u. s. army and its allies invaded iraq, especially he'd say that today the, let me know kind of setup wizard empty. i'll just have a nevaeh, a hobby may the 1st 2003 us president george bush declared victory in the iraq war. she had the progenitor, you know, up, up, up for a potential hired because december, the 30th 2006 said i'm hussein was executed. and mm hm. we'll shut down from done december, the 15th 2011. a ceremony was held in baghdad to mark the end of the u. s. military mission. in reality, the u. s. army is still in iraq. a couple of

a still a couple people. but there ah, is russia, celebrates the 9th anniversary of the crimea referendum. we take a look at the classified a buttons to invade crimea as far back as 1957. also this our yet had decided to send $20000.00 to the organization of american state. that is not concerned with the region where ukraine is located. the gray zone reveals cash drops. ukraine is funding a washington based organization as give us for more western support fund and austrian politician to buttons, serbia demolish it's memorial to children killed in the nato.