[000:00:00;00] ah ah ah ah ah. hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. the international criminal court is accused russia of committee, more crimes and ukraine. of course, the bite administration could not be more pleased. the i c c u. c. that's a long history of doing washington's bidding. the same court washington refuses to be part of,

ah, discuss these issues and more on joined by my guess, george samuel in budapest. he's a podcast or at the goggle which can be found on youtube and locals. and in america we crossed to martin j. he's an award winning journalist and commentators for a gentleman cross up rules and effect. that means you can jump in and tell me one. and i always appreciated when i start out with george in budapest. i'm, i'm so i'm sure you're not surprised. say any more than martin and our audience that these are one according die minutes, accusations, or have been leveled against russia. i'm please explain what the international criminal court is, because after all the united states is not in the ukraine, is it in and russia, isn't it? so why is it important, or maybe it's not? well, it's very important to appreciate that the international criminal court was actually a creation of the united states. a lot of people keep talking about all the u. s. has nothing to do you as hate see, i see, see,

and so on. the united states was instrumental in its creation, but of course, implicit in the project was that the united states would not accept it's jurisdiction. i mean, it's like, you know, the or the sovereign does, but the sovereign is, creates the law is not bound by the law. so that was the thing was the united states. so it's a propaganda exercise. ah, when the i c c issues, it's the indictments. i mean, the whole purpose of us is that it's the adversaries of the united states who are targeted by the i c, c. and, and that's the function of these are these strange international legal bodies that you know before the i c. c was the international criminal tribunal for the former yugoslavia. that at various times during the config came out with politically opportune indictments. so united 1995 just as p stocks are about to begin it in

diets rather encouraging radical luggage to prevent them from taking bought the piece thorough. same thing and during the cost of a bombing bone. right, right, right. as the bombing is losing support domestically, the i c t y comes out with an indictment alpha and also it, so this was entirely predictable that at some point the i c. c would issue an arrest warrant or an indictment. and this is of, of course, the 1st of a series. i mean it's not going to stop it. they're going to be issuing indictment, offer indictment off to jail. just my waiver is russian official to continue to get the some brownie points from all of the so the to go the liberal humanitarian brigade. oh, great look where, where on the right side of history the i see see, is issuing the diamond is a body with no legal authority whatsoever. it statements should be ignored,

resolutely insecure martin because it's in attempting universal jurisdiction. but that jurisdiction doesn't cover in the united states. i mean, there's even been a resolution passed by the u. s. congress that the u. s. coders, us would actually use military force against the hag if an american were put on trial. i mean, it's at that sounds crazy, but it's actually true that they would resort to force to protect americans from prosecution for war crimes. which if you look at the number of conflicts, the united states has been involved in over the last 4050 years. there is a lot of conflicts, the cover there and a lot of soldiers culpability that could be investigated though in the u. s. will not allow its own soldiers to be or citizens in general to be under that jurisdiction. but everybody else is apparently martin. yeah. so there's an awful lot in note saying, or be careful what you wish for. i think that may will be the case if, if we raise the proof of the i c. c will, who will understand what it is, what it does. but i think for an awful lot of people watching today,

it's just another opaque drake self serving some more useless institution on the european concent. and the so many also a you can just read the list here being commission, airplane pulse, but couldn't even just close all along. well, those instructions actually do. well, i think george nailed it. they are very good at making statements. they're very good of feeding the piano machine, but at some point, the motor instead, you know, journalists stop knocking out the narrative. they don't have much else to say. i think it was just symbolic thing. but i also think for a lot of people who understand the complications of, of the ukraine. well, i think that will look at it as a so desperate measured by the americans. what else combine them? do you know he's really against it now in times on his side the money is running out. and what else can journalist come ballenger and is rather empty periods where there's not much to write about?

so i think it's very much a token thing. it also in the last couple of weeks no, was so the last couple of months. there been reports of the i c. c is also going to play more hardball against israeli government on it, some activities and in palestine. the human rights abuses carried out, the palestinians go also very excited about this, but they're also just starting to realize that it's very much an empty gesture. it's very much about making statements and not really doing much else. because internationally, we talk about international rule. there isn't there, there isn't much said to go, an interesting thing i think, which is raised by a commentator just a couple of days ago on the, on the radio was that this will oblige a number of countries number of member countries to arrest. if you have a trouble with those countries, but i think it may well be a road for the run back because he may well, he may, will defy that and go to those countries and no risk to be made. and then think of the negative payoff for this institution in the hague, which i am visited by the way. it is probably the most boring city and entire been

constant. i wonder why they put it there. apologies to the people, but you know, so we shouldn't look too much into this, i think is a desperate, you know, for slum, rolled up to static p, o m rues, which really woke much further. what george, of course, you know, when you read mainstream media, there's always the reference to the nuremberg a number of tribunal. they're trying to give it equivalent, see here, and it's the magnitude of it all. and, and then then, like the 14th or 15 paragraphs, united states is now part of it. ukraine is the heart with those. there's a specific cut out, and maybe you can explain to us when it comes to ukraine. rush is that part of it? israel's law, part of it, china is not part of it. but you know, it, once you invoke the nuremberg trials, you know, this is something that they wanted. it's part of the prop rolling out the propaganda, george ss. right. and so it's very much, oh, as a kind of desire of the human rights brigade that there will be these big war

crimes trials in which you have these defendants with the hands hanging down, preferably behind that kind of a, a glass booth like out of iceman and then in, or they'll have these eloquent human rights prosecutors raining down, accusations on lisa hapless i, individuals. and that would be the final try on. oh, has on global human rights movement. if what is very interesting, what you said about the ukraine, because ukraine is not a part of the i c c. but what a ukraine did, he says, well, we will recognize i c. c jurisdiction on crimes committed against us on our territory. so therefore, we will be happy to cooperate with you in order that you'll be able to prosecute people who have committed crimes against 1000. i said, i find that that see, we're dealing with this to be sure clear. george, but crimes that they may or may not have committed themselves with it. i take the yeah, exactly. so it's, it's what they,

they claim these are crimes committed against us. so you can, we will, we're happy to provide you with the evidence and then, and you know, you can go investigate the people we want you to investigate. and of course, when you read this arrest warrant and then the statement by this ridiculous figure was the, the president of the i, c. c. it's entirely based on the accusations made by the ukraine government. i mean, as they have done no investigation of their own, the simple taken it, as is absolutely true. the claims that russia has been abducting children and taking them against their will into russia. all of that is just simply an accusation that the zalinski gang had been making for months and months of sympathy . i see just accepted it wholesale. yeah. martin a debt. there's not much of a discovery process here is there. i mean, is george is pointed out here. well, the camp government camp regime says it's true must be true. it must be

investigated and trials must move forward and that has not been that doesn't have a whole lot to do with the rule of law. that is the rule of injustice and propaganda. well, i think the legal word is inference. defamation inference, you know, is just you go to people who you like and on your side g politically. and you asked for their opinions or views about or a given series events in a conflict. and you met an awful lot of the negative stuff they might ask, will just pick up the stuff the suit showcase. and we've seen this. this is repeating it so that we've seen the same thing with the chemicals i just said, which i think is also in the 8th, which i was investigating the so called chemical attacks. but aside, you know, after wo, i think people began to realize this is very much a one sided narrative. and there was a particular point where they actually admitted to themselves. and to the answer,

the journalists who were probes that these claims about a such people that in fact, the original report was wrong, and it's been heavily edited. and a huge scandal broke out. but before i remember correct, so the conclusion that scandal was the russians offered to actually stand their own investigators to syria, to their own investigation. and this is robust and i think this is, you know, they're really good example of instituting is really own very objective at all. anything they to help very political. they are with the objectives and who their masters are. you know, i think last week it's been really interesting for the, for the people who are watching been observing the train war from a distance and the political implications. what's going on biden is really against the ropes. now, you know, with this new deal, the china pro cook with, with iran, and then a week before the saudis, creating a new build a relationship with russia. you know, all this is looking like

a nightmare for him because whenever this happens, you know, it just reaffirms this point over and over again. it was the way off the news on the sure, you know, is like us to generate. i wonder how longer we are going to continue using the fresh because you know, the china do that with which broke a piece between her and the saudis, which i never thought i would ever see it in my head. oh, i wish i was shot. you know, you know, but it refilled to point which is the any idiot can start to walk around the world with a few $100000000.00 and a few containers of arms. it takes super powers to stop all it takes super powers to actually broke a piece. and that's really what the message was to. i think an awful lot of people to global sell the look at america to america. keep starting was around around the world, you know, and it takes a super paulette china to come in and actually stop it. and i think this is one of the things that we're seeing now is a, as ukraine goes on in north america starts look weaker and weaker and indecisive

and effective and everything that it does. so i think this, you know, the i c, c, m, this latest is just so factual. since i was cindy. what's going on? you know, with my be right before we go to the break church, i was really surprised to joe biden, actually publicly said, but we're not part of it. i mean, again, you know, i mean gaps really are reveal what you're really thinking this a few seconds before we go to the break. george, that he blurted that out, that he has the problem. i mean, when you're not that you don't have all your mental faculties under control. you, you kind of blood these things up as you said that be that you're supposed to leave that part in paragraph 27 of your long new york times a think b. c. not supposed to just blow it out in a jump in here we go to a short break and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion and some really stay with our tea. ah

ah ah ah ah at this hour, american and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm iraq, to free its people,

and to defend the world from great who's with we will bring to the iraqi people, food and medicines and supplies. and free with ah, welcome back to crossed out here. all things considered. i'm peter little. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real issues. ah. all right, let's go back to the martin america,

where it is part of part of the allegations of the icpc is made against russia. is about the removal of children from the dumbass to russia for months. my understanding is a lot of these children are being adopted because they were victims of the conflict over 8 years, 9 years now in the done about these are orphans for essentially right here. but that's not the message you're getting from. these allegations coming from the i, c, c. children, the subject to children is a really polemic one. and i think it's quite interesting that we haven't seen any evidence to back any of these allegations up. you know, kid, nothing of children. i think that was frank states, you know, i think what was happening at the time was at rub pigeon. so the importance of, of safeguarding these kids and they just didn't, they didn't even waste a minute and the was tech and shipping them to say for ground. it's a great shame that we don't have, excuse me. we don't have more initiative from the, from western agencies,

from western governments from the when, when the war broke out. you know, if we look at we do it's tally of the number of kids that have been killed, that have stayed in the, in the, in the, in these hot spots. you're really ironic and roll the sickening from, from my perspective to see call the i c. c is putting this case together because it's so incredibly one sided and really not all objective. if we look back at so many huge conflict, so happens, i'm sorry, in my career. you know, the mother times were massive, huge international western organizations of just don't actually nothing. i'm thinking over wanda emotional before where, you know, potentially ministration was so terrified of doing anything at all because of 23, the soldiers in somalia. the couple years before i was there, come to, you know, they just became completely mute and, and it's really important to, to, to act and i think, you know,

we don't see any opprobrium strong. these people who take the high moral ground, the great leader writers of the washington post linear times, or any of these world leaders who actually supported 11 a wait against this latest icbc and charge against putin. so it seems a lot of hypocrisy. and that's really what we're dealing with. we're dealing with a policy and p s on a colossal level here, a one to really how long this can go on. i mean, before the, the newspapers, the media start to turn, looked at by go to the start. i'm asking some other questions, like i do tend to think that this is really smart screen. i think this is really just something, this is smoke, this is just being thrown in the faces of a lot of people to distract away from bigger issues which are coming. by the way, you know, like, what's happening with republicans, i'll be going to run on a single ticket of no more money to, to ukraine. what does that do? just lensky is already there is some speculation in the rest of the rescue stuff into turn. and i wonder if this is part of all this story is that he's now looking

for new partners. they believe, look to the chinese, i mean, the japanese. well that's yeah, that's in the air. you know, whatever, you know, we're really lucky on this recording that we have george because george is an expert. and with the i c. c did with the former yugoslavia george getting it, you know, given their behavior. and now the precedent sent to us so established there. how does that bode for when it comes to ukraine? because i'd like to point out, george is educated me a lot on this. is it in that situation? the chances in your a serve you're going to be guilty now on serve innocent. it's very focused. it's almost racist. go ahead. sure. yeah, no of that. that's, that is very, very important to keep that in mind. because again, when the international criminal tribunal for the former yugoslavia was set up in 1993. ah, it was billed as well. this is not going to be a victim tribunal. this is going to be objective and i,

everybody who's committed crimes, you know, whatever the nationality will be in the process. of course it wasn't. and everybody knew that he wasn't the, the a, c, u and security council which had been very hostile to the subs. it's set this up again, no real legal basis for doing so. and that's what the i c d. why did it targeted the subs who had been targeted by the united states and its allies at the un security council? so the overwhelming majority, i mean the, you know, the, that's like something 90 percent of the sentences of the, of the prosecution has been against the serbs and, and now, and that was the whole purpose of the striving to demonize the sub. there was a so i was just out of the war, the shelves are committed, all the transfers, the serbs, committed genocide, everything was the fault of the service. that's what, what the i c t y did and that's what the i c c is doing. so there's nothing more pathetic than these a do. got a crowd,

some of these libertarians responsible staker people say, well, i'm for the indictment of gluten as long as you indict george w bush. so yes, let's have put in the dog. but let's also have henry kissinger and though it's not going to happen, these have a set up up, up targeting the people that the united states on the west, once dog george w bush is never going to be at the i. c. c. tony blair is not going to be a rest of that hold off of a hey, it's utterly stupid that these people peddle this idea. well, that's good, that's a good start that we have put in here. but next spring i left myself tony blair. it's ridiculous, it isn't going to happen either the i c c is doing exactly what the i c c was set up to do. you know, eva, we can learn, you've already mentioned in the program, and i think it's very interesting. and it's prescient on your part is that these are western driven institutions, primarily almost exclusively, out of washington here. and of course,

there may be western publics that don't know, any of the nuances that we've already discussed than this program. they seem like good, i'm a good institutions a well meaning, you know, it's like nuremberg trials and all that. but, you know, it's one of the things we have all learn of the course of this conflict in ukraine is that most of the world, the global majority global south, what everyone they're seeing. this is just another level of hypocrisy. okay. i mean, you know, african leaders, you know, they, they know what the i, c, c, they're looking at africa. they know that, you know, it's going to be photos of the, of the europeans and of the americans. ok. it's very, very selective. and, you know, even though you and i, all 3 of us can mock it, i mean, and then the rest of the world. this as you know, again, this is just an example of western hypocrisy where they get the rule of laws a to their advantage. and we're all of the get the short end of the stick. go ahead and you live in if you live in the global south, go ahead a little bit ago. so yeah, and it's, um, whenever you talk about ice,

you see in africa most people will think of the rest of charles taylor. you know, here's the thing about taylor, is that it's not very well known, but you dictate, but often you read enough note books. it is revealed by a few choice journalists. taylor was a real puppet of the american. you know, taylor was actually a help in overthrowing the country and taking out by the americans and, but he played this whole and called relationship one minute. it was in the next minute they hated him. in the end, they threw him to dogs. you know, they and they, and they pushed the c c to arrest him and entered and put a case against him. and i think that, you know, the africa, africa is a constant which has, is losing all the time, its confidence in the north, in the western european union and american countries. you know, it's so funny that we talk about the global self and africa. but every single day that passes, we see the confidence training in the european unit in particular and in america. and there was science, there were signs to which you can see every day if you wish to, you know, then watching very,

very closely these huge seismic deals that are going ahead. like, as i mentioned before, the saudi arabia and russia. i'm showing a brokerage piece to with the iranians implications of iran. saudi arabia now not looking at each other on which i'm pointing barrels each other, but actually working on investment nice of the countries and the not on affect the us right across the region. and the africans picked this up, thinking ok, so does that mean morocco knows you will no longer have this east west cold war? nonsense that's been going on for so long. will it really, it will, it, will it relieve the tensions all across the continent. but the funny thing is, is to europe and union leaves africa. it's just because it gives you the home of just tell l pacific. i'm just how we can in effect to the leaders in the european unit itself. when just about a week ago, the european union, gardner and chief, mister burrell, joseph, broke a man. we have great reverence for a troubled cell area and made some very bold

statements. nigeria, you know, and the 2 key messages that come across were, well, we need movie guess. and if you could fix, you could walk for us and get peace. you would really appreciate that. well, i mean, you put you in the area just to sort of still just how bad can it get? you know, i mean, that's just really pathetic african leaders pick up on those messages. african leaders see that visit and understand exactly what's going on. the world, you know, they're, they're not stupid so, so i think you know, this, this, these recent events, you know, will be noted by the african, the late and i think it just, it just transcribed that she was again, of this very opaque institution. all the invoice of a lot of anyway, you know, it, you know, charge on it. and it's already been mentioned here about the, the piece what the deal that the chinese and broker between the radians and the saudis. one thing from the global south is, you know, if you have a conflict with a neighbor or an international dispute, you don't have to have

a super power patron. you can actually have a neutral descent, well, more or less disinterested broker and that is so you know, that sense, you know, a very strong message. you don't have to sell your soul and your sovereignty to get protection and consider who what the americans are going to the germans write out. probably not a good idea to have a western patron, george. yes, exactly. and it's very interesting. if we look at a contrast between russia and china, adding, brokering this agreement between iran and saudi arabia, with the american approach, which is, well, let's keep this will going forever. the americans have done it. syria is what is just as it will let us keep this going forever. i mean, isn't a no, no prospect whatsoever at any time that there will be any kind of a negotiated outcome. stable government, economic prosperity. and i will just keep pouring in arms. we're gonna keep trying to isolate syria. we're going to try and keep making sure that that area doesn't get any reconstruction aid. that's all the americans have. and, you know,

we have libya is out 12 years since america started bombing libya and he's still an absolutely destroyed country. and so, yes, this is another thing as monte setting in the african look upon this as a well who's trying to further piece and asperity. and co operation and who just simply once conflicts to go on forever. and again when, when the, the, the white house spokesman said the other day where we can possibly accept the chinese piece plan. because that would keep, you know, russians gains in place and they would be in violation of the you and shot alex, we need to keep this wall going for as long as possible until we get what we want. so, so basically satisfy peace and co operation who stands for permanent war. yeah, well you're not going to let you won't get those answers in the washington post the new york times the financial times. but then again, um the leads in the global south. they don't particularly pay attention to those

organs of state information any more as all the time we have gentlemen want to thank my guest, american, and in budapest, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz. see you next time and remember, rasa rose ah ah, in wanted to come to russian state to never. i've side as i'm phoning most landscape diva. mm hm. and i'm not getting close. i'll some, some of it within the 55 when. okay, so mine is 2000 speedy when else calls with we will van in the european union, the kremlin. yup, machine. the state aunt, rush up to date and split the r t sport neck even our video agency,

roughly all band to on youtube. with o opperation, the aerodynamic began shortly after world war 2 and lost it almost 3 decades. it wasn't a major effort to try and split the ukraine off from the soviet union, u. s. intelligence. together with hypnos, executioners trained hundreds of saboteurs to be deployed in the soviet union. restore gast was on the east of alberto so well, i'm startled this with george w and cyrus unit one. yes. today's security service of ukraine use is not only the statistic methods, but also the ideology of the nationalists, the disease,

a who i don't, i just not much of it on a picture that they're going to push and they want to