ah ah, [000:00:00;00] with hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . the international criminal court is accused russia of committee. more crimes and ukraine. of course, the biden administration could not be more pleased. the i c c u. c. as a long history of doing washington's bidding, the same court washington refuses to be part of,

ah, discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess, george samuel in budapest. he's a podcast or at the goggle which can be found on youtube and locals. and in america we crossed to martin jay, he's an award winning journalist, an commentator for a gentleman, cross up rules, and the fact that means you can jump in and tell me one. and i always appreciate it . when i start out with george in budapest, i'm, i'm so i'm sure you're not surprised say any more than martin and our audience that the lisa, what, what indictments accusations have been leveled against russia. i'm please explain what the international criminal court is. because after all, the united states is not in the ukraine, is it in and russia, isn't it? so why is it important, or maybe it's not? well it's, it's very important to appreciate that the international criminal court was actually a creation of the united states. a lot of people keep talking about all the u. s. has nothing to do u. s. hasty, icy, and so on. the united states was instrumental in its creation, but of course,

implicit in the project was that the united states would not accept it's jurisdiction. i mean, it's like, you know, the or the sovereign does, but the sovereign is, creates the law is not bound by the low. so i was the thing with the united states . so it's a propaganda exercise. ah, when the i c c issues, it's the indictments. i mean, the whole purpose of this is that it's the adversaries of the united states who are targeted by the i c, c. and, and that's the function of these are these strange international legal bodies that are before the i, c. c was the international criminal tribunal for the former yugoslavia. that at various times during the count they came out with politically opportune indictments . so united 1995 just as p stocks are about to begin it in diets rather than

carriage and radical luggage to prevent them from taking bought the piece looks same thing and during the cost of a bombing bone. right, right, right. as the bombing is losing support domestically, the i c t y comes out within the dive, mental alpha and also it. so this is entirely predictable that at some point the i, c, c would issue an arrest warrant or an indictment. and this is of, of course, the 1st of a series. i mean it's not going to stop it. they're going to be issuing indictment, offer indictment off to jail. just like whatever is russian official to continue to get the some brownie points from all of the so the do go the liberal humanitarian brigade. oh great look where, where on the right side of history the i c c is issue with a diamond. it's a body with no legal authority whatsoever. it statements should be ignored, resolutely answered martin, because it's an attempt at universal jurisdiction, but that jurisdiction doesn't cover the united states. i mean, there's even been

a resolution passed by the u. s. congress that the u. s. congress us would actually use military force against the hag if an american were put on trial. i mean, it's at that sounds crazy, but it's actually true that they would resort to force to protect americans from prosecution for war crimes. which if you look at the number of conflicts united states has been involved in over the last 4050 years, there is a lot of conflicts to cover their in a lot of soldiers culpability. that could be investigated though in the u. s. will not allow its own soldiers to be or citizens in general to be under that jurisdiction. but everybody else is apparently martin. yeah, there's a, there's an awful lot in note saying, or be careful what you wish for. i think that may will be the case if, if we raise the proof of the us, you see more people understand what it is, what it does. but i think for an awful lot of people watching today, it's just another opaque, craig,

self serving some more useless institution on the european council. and the so many also i, you can just read the list, european commission, airplane pulse, but you couldn't even just close on along what those instructions actually do. well, i think george mailed it. they are very good at making statements. they're very good us feeding the piano machine, but at some point, the motor stroy journalist stop knocking out the narrative. they don't have much else to say. i think it was a symbolic thing. but i also think for a lot of people who understand the complications of, of the ukraine. well, i think they will look at it as a so desperate measured by the americans. what else combine them? do you know he's really against it now in times not on his side. the money is running out. and what else can journalist ballenger and is rather empty periods where there's not much to write about? so i think it's very much a token thing that also in the last couple of weeks now most of the last couple of months,

there been reports of the i c. c is also going to play more hardball against israeli government on, at some activities. and in palestine, the human rights abuses carry out the palestinians go also very excited about this, but they're also just starting to realize that it's very much an empty gesture. it's very much about making statements and not really doing much hills, because internationally, we talk about international rule. there isn't there. there isn't much there to go. an interesting thing i think, which is raised by a commentator just a couple days ago on the, on the radio was that this will oblige a number of countries number of member countries to arrest. if you have a trouble with those countries, but i think it may well be a road for the run back because he moved he may, will defy that and go to those countries and no risk to be made. and then think of the negative payoff for this institution in the hague, which i visited by the way. and it's probably the most boring city and entire been constant. i wonder why they put it there. apologies to the people who have but you

know, so we shouldn't look too much into this, i think is a desperate, you know, for slum, rolled up to static p, o. m rues, which really woke much further. what george, of course, you know, when you read mainstream media, there's always the reference to the nerve board number of tribunal. they're trying to give it equivalent, see here. and it's the magnitude of it all. and, and then then like to 14 or 15 paragraphs, united states is now part of it. ukraine is the heart with those. there's a specific cut out, and maybe you can explain to us when it comes to ukraine. rush is that part of it? israel's up part of it, china is not part of it. but you know, it, once you invoke the nuremberg trials, you know, this is something that they want to do. it's part of the prop, rolling out the propaganda. george is that right? and so it's very much, oh, as a kind of desire of the human rights brigade that there will be these big war crimes trials in which you have these defendants with the hands hanging down,

preferably behind that kind of a, a glass booth like out of iceman and then, you know, they'll have these eloquent human rights of prosecutors, raining down accusations on these hapless sa individuals. and that would be the final try on o has on global human rights movement will if, what is very interesting, what you said about the ukraine. because ukraine is not a part of the i see, see, but what a ukraine did. he says, well, we will recognize i c. c jurisdiction on crimes committed against us on our territory. so therefore, we will be happy to cooperate with you in order that you'll be able to prosecute for people who have committed crimes against 1000. i said, i find that that's your exhibit. any of this to be sure clear, george, but crimes that they may or may not have committed themselves with it. i say yeah, exactly. so it's, it's what they, they claim these are crimes committed against us. so you can wit, we'll,

we're happy to provide you with the evidence and then, and you know, you can go and investigate the people we want you to investigate. and of course, when you read this arrest warrant and then the statement by this ridiculous figure was the, the president of the i, c. c. it's entirely based on the accusations made by the ukraine government. i mean, as they have done no investigation of their own, they simply taken it as absolutely true. the claims that russia has been abducting children and taking them against their will into russia. all that is just simply an accusation that the zalinski gang had been making for months and not so simply the i c. c just accepted it wholesale. yeah. martin, it, it did. there's not much of a discovery process here is there. i mean, is george's pointed out here, well, the camp government camp regime says it's true must be true. it must be investigated and a trials must move forward and that has no, that doesn't have

a whole lot to do with the rule of law. that is the rule of injustice and propaganda. well, i think the legal word is inference. defamation inference, you know, is just you go to people who you like and on your side g politically. and you asked for their opinions or views about a, a given series prevents in a conflict zone. and you mentioned awful lot of the negative stuff they might ask will just pick up stuff the suit showcase. we've seen this. this is repeating itself, and we've seen the same thing with the chemicals i just said, which i think is also in the 8th, which i was investigating the so called chemical attacks. but aside, you know, after wo, i think people going to realize this is very much a one sided normative. and there was a particular point where they actually admitted to themselves. and to the answer, the journalists who were, who were, who proved that these claims about a such

a mission and people that in fact with the original report was wrong. and it's been heavily edited. and a huge scandal broke out. but if i remember correctly, the conclusion that scandal was the russians offered to actually send their own investigators to syria, to their own investigation. and this is robust and i think this is, you know, they're really good example of how a lot of the institutions are really own very objective at all. anything they to help very political. they are with the objectives and who their masters are. you know, i think last week it's been really interesting for the, for people who are watching been observing the war from a distance and the political implications. what's going on biden is really against the ropes. now, you know, with this new deal, the china broke cook with, with iran, and then a week before that sound is creating a new build a relationship with russia. you know, all this is looking like a nightmare for him because whenever this happens, you know,

it just reaffirms this point over and over again. it was just the way off the news on the sure, you know, it is like us to generate. i wonder how longer we are going to continue using the fresh because, you know, the china deal was broken piece between around the saudis, which i never thought i would ever see him. i mean, i was shocked. you know, but it reaffirmed a point which is the any, if you can start a war around the world with a few $100000000000.00 and a few containers of arms, it takes super powers to stop pools. it takes super powers to actually brook a piece, and that's really what the message was. so i think a lot of people who live with south america to america keep starting was around around the world, you know, and it takes a superpower, china to come in and actually stop it. and i think, you know, this is one of the things that we're seeing now is as ukraine goes on and on, on america starts look weaker and weaker and indecisive and effective and everything with it does. so i think this is the i c, c,

this latest is just so fast. so silly. what's going on, you know, with the right, before we go to the break church, i was really surprised to joe biden, actually publicly said, but we're not part of this. i mean, again, you know, i mean, gas really are reveal what you really thinking this a few seconds before we go to the break. george. he blurted that out. i mean, that's the problem. i mean, when you're not, you don't have all your mental faculties on the control. you got to blood these things up. as you said, you're supposed to leave that up in paragraph 27 of your long new york times. things be most opposed to just blooded up in the top of the jump in here guys, we get a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion. and so we'll stay with our t o o the

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ah ah, ah, well connect across that were all things considered i and peter lane, this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real issues. ah. all right, let's go back to the martin america, where it is part of part of the allegations of the i, c. c is made against russia, is about the removal of children from the dumbass to russia. from my understanding is a lot of these children are being adopted because they were victims of the columns over 8 years, 9 years now in the dark about these are orphans for essentially right here,

but that's not the message you're getting from. these allegations coming from the i see, see children subject to children is a really polemic one. and i think it's quite interesting that we haven't seen any evidence to back any of these allegations up. you know, kid, nothing of children. i think nothing was frank said, you know, i think what was happening at the time was rough pigeon saw the importance of, of safeguarding these kids. and they just didn't. it didn't even waste a minute and the was us tech and shifting them to say for grants. it's a great shame that we don't have, excuse me. we don't have more initiative from the, from western agencies, from western governments from the when, when the war broke out. you know, if we look at, we do it's tally of the number of kids that have been killed. the state in the, in the, in these hot spots, you know, really i rolnick and roll the sickening from, from my perspective to see call the i c. c is putting this case together because it's so incredibly,

one sided and really not all objective. if we look back at so many huge conflicts happened, i'm sorry, my career, you know, and another times were massive, huge international western organizations of just don't absolutely nothing. i'm thinking of for wanda emotional before where, you know, potentially ministration was so terrified of doing anything at all because of 23, the soldiers in somalia. the couple years before i was there, come to, you know, they just became completely mute and, and it's really important to, to, to act and i think, you know, we don't see any opprobrium from these people who take the high moral ground, the great leader writers of the worst and post linear ties, or any of these um world leaders who will actually supported let their weight against their latest icbc and charge against putin. so it seems a lot of hypocrisy. and that's really what we're dealing with. we're dealing with a policy and p s on a colossal level here. i wonder really,

how long this can go on. i mean, before the, the newspapers, the media start to turn, looked at by the start. i'm asking some questions like i do tend to think that this is really a smart screen. i think this is really just something, this is smoke, this is just being thrown in the faces of a lot of people to distract away from bigger issues which are coming. by the way, you know, like, what's happening with republicans, i'll be going to run on a single ticket of no more money to, to ukraine. what does that do? just lensky is already there was some speculation in the rest of the rescue starting to turn. and i wonder if this is part of all this story is that he's now looking for the new powders they believe. look to the chinese, i mean the chinese. well, that's cool. yeah. that's in the air. you know, whatever, you know, we're really lucky on this recording that we have george because george is an expert with the i c. c did with the former yugoslavia george next you know,

given their behavior in the precedent center. so established there. how does that bode for when it comes to ukraine? because i'd like to point out, george is educated me a lot on this. is it in that situation? the chances in your serve you going to be guilty now on serve innocent? it's very focused. it's almost racist. go ahead, you know that that's, that is very, very important to keep that in mind. because again, when the international criminal tribunal for the former yugoslavia was set up in 1993. ah, it was billed as well. this is not going to be a fixed as tribunal. this is going to be objective and everybody who's committed crimes, you know, whatever the nationality will be in the process. of course it wasn't. and everybody knew that he wasn't the c u and security council, which had been very hostile to the subs. it's set this up again. no real legal basis for doing so. and that's what the i c d. why did it target that the subs who

had been targeted by the united states and its allies at the un security council? so the overwhelming majority, i mean the, you know, the, that's like something 90 percent of the sentences of the, of the prosecution has been against the serbs and, and now, and that was the whole purpose of the striving to demonize the sub levels of so i was just out of the war, the soldier committed all the transfers, the serbs, committed, genocide, everything was the fault of the serbs. that's what what the i c t y did and that's what the i c. c is doing. so there's nothing more pathetic than these a do. got a crowd, some of these libertarians responsible staker people say, well, i'm for the indictment of tutoring. as long as you indict george w bush. so yes, let's have put in the dog. but let's also have henry kissinger and though it's not going to happen, these, her thoughts are set up up, up targeting the people that the united states on the west, once dog george

w bush is never going to be at the i. c. c, tony blair. i was not going to be arrested and hold off of a hey, it's utterly stupid that these people peddle this idea. well, that's good, that's a good start that we have put in here. but next spring, you know, let's, let's up tony blair. it's ridiculous. it isn't going to happen either the i c c is doing exactly what the i c c was set up to do, you know, eva, we can learn, you've already mentioned in the program, and i think it's very interesting. and it's prescient on your part is that these are western driven institutions, primarily almost exclusively out of washington here. and of course, there may be western publics that don't know, any of the nuances that we have already discussed on this program. they seem like good, i'm a good institution so well, meaning, you know, it's like nuremberg trials and all that. but, you know, it's one of the things that we've all learned through the course of this conflict in ukraine is that most of the world, the global majority global south,

whatever you want to, they're saying this is just another level of hypocrisy. ok. i mean, you know, african leaders, you know, they, they know what the i, c, c, they're looking at africa. they know that, you know, it's going to be photos of the, of the europeans and of the americans. ok. it's very, very selective. and, you know, even though you and i, all 3 of us can mock it, i mean, and then the rest of the world. this as you know, again, this is just an example of western hypocrisy where they get the rule of laws a to their advantage. and we're all of the get the short end of the stick. go ahead and you live in if you live in the global south, go ahead a little bit ago. so yeah, and it's, um, whenever you talk about ice, you see in africa most people will think of the rest of charles taylor, you know, now here's the thing about taylor, is that it's not very well known, but you dictate, but often you read enough note books it is revealed by a few choice journalists. taylor was a real up it of the america, you know, taylor was actually a help in overthrowing the country and taken by the americans. and but he

played this whole and called relationship one minute it was in that day, the next minute they hated him. in the end, they threw him to dogs. you know, they and they, and they pushed the i, c, c to arrest him and, and to put a case against him. and i think that, you know, the africa, africa is a constant which has, is losing all the time, its confidence in the north, in the western european union and american countries. you know, it's so funny that we talk about the global south africa. but every single day that passes, we see the confidence training in the european unit in particular and in america. and there was science, there was science that which you can see every day if you wish to watch very, very closely these huge seismic deals that are going ahead. like, as i mentioned before, the saudi arabia and russia and showing the broker and the piece to with the iranians implications of iran. the saudi arabia now not looking at each other, which i'm pointing barrels each other, but actually working on investment nice of the countries and the not on affect the

us right across the region. the africans pick this up, thinking ok, so does that mean morocco and algeria will no longer have this east west cold war? nonsense that's been going on for so long. will it really, it will, it? will it relieve the tensions all across the continent? but the funny thing is, is the europe union needs africa, it's just because it gives you an example of just how l pacific. i'm just how weak and effective leaders are in the european unit itself. when just about a week ago, the european union, gardner and chief, mister burrell, joseph, broke a man. we have great reverence for the trouble sell. cheerier made so great both statements. nigeria, you know, and the 2 key messages that came across were, well, we need movie guess. and if you could fix the claim was for us and get pasty. i would really appreciate that. well, i mean, you'd be new in the area just to sort of still just how bad can it get? you know, i mean, it's just really pathetic. african leaders pick up on those messages. african

leaders see that visit and understand exactly what's going on. the world, you know though they're not stupid so, so i think um, you know, this, this, these recent events, you know, will be noted by the african, the late and i think it just, it just trains the credibility once again, all of this very opaque institutions, all the invoice of a lot of anyway, you know, it, you know, charge on it. and it's already been mentioned here about the, the piece what the deal that the chinese and broker between the radians and the saudis. one thing from the global south is, you know, if you have a conflict with a neighbor or an international dispute, you don't have to have a super power patron. you can actually have a neutral descent, well, more or less disinterested broker. and that is, you know, that sense, you know, a very strong message. you don't have to sell your soul and your sovereignty to get protection and consider who, what the americans are going to the germans right out. probably not a good idea to have a western patron, george. yes, exactly,

and it's very interesting. we look at a contrast between russia and china, adding, brokering this agreement between iran and saudi arabia, with the american approach, which is, well, let's keep this will going forever. the americans have done it, syria is what is just as it will. let's just keep this going forever. i mean isn't a no, no prospect whatsoever at any time that there will be any kind of a negotiated outcome. stable government, economic prosperity. and i will just keep pouring in arms. we're gonna keep trying to isolate syria. we're going to try and keep making sure this area doesn't get any reconstruction aid. that's what the americans have. and, you know, we have libya, it's out 12 years since america started bombing libya and he's still an absolutely destroyed country. ok, so yes, this is, you know, looking as monte setting and africans look upon this as a well who's trying to further piece and parity and co operation and who just

simply once conflicts to go on forever. and again, when, when the, the, the white house spokesman said the other day where we can possibly accept the chinese base plan. because that would keep, you know, russians gains in place and they will be in violation of the you and sha, dallas. we need to keep this wall going for as long as possible until we get what we want. so yeah. so basically sansa biesen cooperation, who stands for permanent war. yeah, well you're not going to let you won't get those answers in the washington post new york times the financial times. but then again, uh the lead in the global south. they don't particularly pay attention to those organs of state information any more, all the time we have gentlemen want to take my guess in medication and in budapest, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here to see you next time and remember ah, ah,

march 20th, 2003, the u. s. army and its allies invaded iraq, especially he hated to day, let me know kind of stuff. was it anybody all set up with a, the 1st 2003 us president george bush declared victory in the iraq war. how do you did for july, you know, up up, up for a try to hire date of december, the 30th 2006 said i was saying was executed and we'll shut down them from december, the 15th 2011. a ceremony was held in baghdad to month the end of the u. s. military mission. in reality, the us army is still in iraq,

a blob. she had a village for a couple people, but there are oh, most evasion of right of the night house is fundamentally racist. now, racism leads to genocide. it's very straightforward. they believe that they are superior. if you think that you are superior, and that's why you are rich, why is everybody else poor? you shut out of your mind, the idea that they are poor because you are making them, by robbing them by getting to buy your course decimal rest of it. and you think no, it must be because they are inferior people. what do you do with inferior people? get rid of, get rid of,

ah ah, [000:00:00;00] ah ah, in terms of russia and china development of an international strategic agenda, we need to ensure fairness and equality in the world. united thinks that china as president outlined to call for home. so strategic partnership with russia, president your benchmark relations between state that the shoes in k embarked on an official visit to the country. russian president vladimir put, says and came to the blackfeet grain deal is not extended. russia is ready to