development and getting to resist, i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very critical. i'm time to sit down and talk with me. hello and welcome to well, the part of the economist stupid has been the axle of american and western political thinking even before it helped bill clinton, when from 9 to 9 to 2 presidential election, the pursuit of money and profits above everything else has guided the u. s. s development and global expansion since the nation's gratian. but when the dollar

system now reaching its objective limits, what may possibly come in its place? well, to discuss that i'm now joined by alan freeman, co director of the geopolitical economy, research group at the university of manitoba. mr. freeman as brave pleasure to talk to thank you very much for your time. my pleasure. now i was initially intending to discuss with you the warrant in ukraine, and i still hope we can touch upon it in the 2nd part. but before we go there, let us, let me look at the recent and banking collapses in the united states. and i wonder if you see any connection between these seemingly isolated and domestic events with the larger u. s. policy, both monetary and foreign policy. there is a connection, but it may go in the opposite direction to your view as my think, which is i don't think this the can collapse is caused by the ukraine war. i think

ukraine war is caused by the banking collapse. and the reason is that this collapse like this occurs every 10 years it's, it's just last climate, 2008 in 2000 was the dot com in 1992 is the so called oil crisis. it is a feature of the way that this economic system works. and the curious thing is, every time it happens, people think there's a new reason for it. so there's always, oh, this was caused by toxic house is this was goes, well, no, it's, it's, it's the system dummy. as bill clinton might probably would not have said. and the system is one in which the m. assets that should be invested in production are increasingly being diverted into speculation and finance. the reason for this is the systemic weakness of the economy. if you look at the long term performance of the u. s. economy and those of the global north, japan and europe it's,

it's no different. you'll find that there has been a systematic study, what we call a secular decline. really, since 960 u. s. economy received a huge boost from the war from the 2nd world war. and it's gone down ever since it's now got to the point where it is no longer profitable to invest in production . so people invest in these risky financial assets. and each time in the cycle, the us, it's over valued, and then there is a crash and a credit ukraine war is, is a response to that weakness. now the connection that i see and let me know if i'm wrong here has to do with the united states. once again, i exceeding its death sailing of over $3012000000.00. but instead of closing the government as required by the law and the federal reserve for the treasury, and now engaging in various what they call extraordinary operations that allowed

the government a certain life land but dry on the liquidity on the market, which may have contributed to the collapse of some banks and service difficulties at other banks. the fact that the american government has to use all these extraordinary measures instead of just printing out the money as they've done before. isn't it a sign of the dollar economy? exhausting itself is very simple. if you can for dead, somebody has to buy it through solution where the u. s. has worked well is confronted to crisis since 1927. 1997 was very typically ation meltdown. you false foreign people to buy yours? that's what you do. because america is in this unique position, that is, currency is a world currency. what we're now beginning to see is a systemic crisis caused by the difficulty of maintaining a domestic currency, which is also world carts. now there are 2 things happening. first of all,

increasingly american days being financed by americans. because russia and china and all the people who are forced to plan even who were forced to accept american debt, i'll no longer accepting or, or reducing their exposure of the 2nd thing that's happening is that the, the situation when you have an acid, when assets are overvalued you have a terrible choice, you either have to increase the federal interest rate in downtown inflation. and you then basically encourage feet to speculate in financial assets. or you have to reduce the interest rate in order to downtown the speculation, but then inflation will go. so it's more of a die lemme than a knocked down crisis. i think there's a famous saying that used to be said to marxists that they, they predicted 5 of the last 4 crises. the, you know, we're always sort of those of us who are a bit cotton troy, with the american difficulties tend to say,

it's all terrible really the dial emma. now what i think is now happening is that the fed is going to decrease interest rates. and that will allow them to dump down speculation and to some extent, i think it's, it's yet to be seeing the extent of this ridge. i don't think looking at a lot down crisis. the difficulty will be that there will be inflation. and that will promote pro folks domestic descent because it will affect poor people. and poor people in america have for a long time, increasingly being the target along with the global south under russia, china, of american iowa. so i think that the, the, the fact that we can, we serve not isn't it will increase domestic discontent within the united states of america. now i heard you saying that the western elite views on economics have become a sort of and religious system in a sense that everything starts and ends with money and accumulation of profits. but

any sustainable religious system requires a some humbling rituals and a certain amount of self discipline, specifically aim to keep the practitioners ego in place. isn't that the main problem with the western driven academy sort of economic center worldview, that it's simply incapable of limiting it's appetites even that for its own sake, i think they're very disciplined. they discipline people to do stupid things, and people carry out those stupid things. and a very disciplined way, and they also are particularly disciplined perpetuating their teachings. so i'd interesting out of the 2000 and a crash greenspan, i think it was, came on testifying to congress. this is challenged, actually, everything. i know everything that we thought was wrong. 3 years later he produces a book in which he says, no, it was all right, we just have to tweak if you think that to me is that so jesse, with, if you want religious analogy, which circuit is a few problem,

but we can pass them out with sophisticated reasoning, and thus while they do, they don't acknowledge the fundamental things that are wrong with the economy, which is this long term decline, its tendency to decline processor financial. i zation imperialism the in the unsustainable lity of the imperial world. well, over that, and they don't recognize is wrong only tweak tweet the edges. now, a button department of the years congress announced recently that by 2032 within a decade, the american casa servicing and staff will talk to you as defense, expenses which are humongous. i think there are more than 10 other countries are combined. what do you think it would mean in practical terms, both for the united states or what a larger west and for the world. as natalie, i don't want to be rude, but i'm also suits i, i'm very, i used to work with practicing economists to live toby. only one thing is in the

words is the famous us baseball player. never predict anything, especially in the future. so it's very dangerous to say, oh, this is immediately going to lead to a meltdown. i think what the task of what radical political economy will do is to analyze the social and political consequences rather than try and call every immediate and major economic happenstance. what will certainly happen is that the burden is full full on everybody that the american elites don't want to, mike pay for it. they're making the germans pipe. that's why they blew up no. with stream they're making the europeans pay. that's why they're forcing them to actually send weapons to ukraine. they're not sending their own on the whole month . so they're finding that increasingly difficult. but they will now try and be forced to take out some of these difficulties on the american people. i mean, the end of the day is to say the debt burden is increasingly falling on the

shoulders of americans. less and less other countries excepting that they will hold american to pay for their full more and more. and this is, i think what the leaks in america are really frightened. they will have to confront the anger of their own people. so, so that, that's the consequence that i would draw from, from the, rather than i have no, i don't a bank, right? i mean, i have no idea what the debt burden we'll do. pete. some people have extraordinary debt. japan has an extraordinary debt, burns, the percentage of g d, p l in the company just or plots along. so i would be hesitant to say, like maybe you know, this is the ultimate, not down crisis. i don't look at things in that. well, when i'm asking in this question, i'm not looking for or you know, the collapse of the years dollar system i response. i think the, the most typical answer i heard from russian economist is that the american, our currency will transition from being the world,

the world main reserve currency to being a regional currency. and you know, one of many, but still a stronger once a stronger was supported by the strength of the american industry by the western industry. now, do you think that's a sustainable ass scenario for the western world? because as you pointed out in many of your articles, the western economic dominance has been based over the last couple of centuries on centrally sucking resources from the rest of the world and redistributing it among its own allies. can the western count, the western part of the world sustain itself only by all means without and exploiting the rest of the world and in such a matter and measure as it's been accustomed to. but i think that's a really interesting question. and i, i agree with the analysis that you quoted, that what we're seeing is the end, the beginning of the end, and it's a long drawn out process of the capacity. the u. s. dollars to function is the

world's currency. but when you have something that is being dropped, something has to replace it. so the issue is not just whether the us cannot function is the world's currency, but what is put in its place. now what you're beginning to see is arrangements whereby either through currency swaps, for example, the relation between russian india. they trade in roubles and rupees. they don't have a joint currency or anything like that. but in other places, this proposals of foot to create a bricks, currency, i believe, certainly in latin america now, i think mexico, maybe it was really correct me if i'm wrong. but the idea is certainly being sort of a latin american free trade zone and currency. so, but to put these and trying are, is obviously developing swap arrangement with other countries. but what would be dangerous for, let's say china would be for its currency to become a world currency like than it would be in the same mess. the america has got into

so i think one should see it move towards a system of regional currencies without any single hedge him on. if you do that, then you have to make defined kind of arrangements. the keynes proposed of bretton woods and he was defeated by the americans for a profit system of international settlements in which the priority is to secure the growth of the poorest countries. rather than to make the poorest countries pay for what the rich countries are doing. and that's the way out, this is a long process. it combines economic, political, and geographical activities, the formation of regional blogs, the creation of workable trading arrangements. avoiding the over exposure of currencies to the kind of dangers that the u. s. is being exposed her and so on. ultimately, therefore, is as much about the way the imperialism is declining, as it is about the specific a reference,

the to maiden. now the 3rd world countries, china, russia, india, has to work together actually to create an alternative to the trade to the u. s. dominant, dominate trading sold, and i think they're already doing that. and the american sanctions are helping that a great deal. but let me reiterate that question. once again, do you think the west itself, can we leave in such an arrangement when everybody is treated more fairly and then you know, when trade can be done in a way that is mutually beneficial rather than politically or condition? well, of course, we must all wish for that i've so until now the prospects have not been particularly bright. um, and this is a puzzle, one of the things that exercises me because the me, the issue in understanding what's going on in the west is in a certain sense no understanding how stupidly they're behaving. because that's very

obvious. you only have to look at 3 graphs, tell you what that what they're doing wrong. the real problem is why don't i understand it? and i, i, i, i have this little quote that i love from bastere, where he, he says, i'm a great fan of nasty, i, because we had reactionary. the french revolution is when plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society. over the course of time, they create themselves a legal system that authorizes a moral code that glorifies it. now that's what they've done, they've created and i think is a mythological system in which they don't understand that their wealth rests on robbing the rest of the world. they literally don't understand it because it's not a pleasant thing to admit that you're a bandage. all right, so what they do is they create a mythology in which they say, the reason we're wealthy is because with superior, as long as you think you'll superior, you're not going to get your problems right. it's a superiority complex until you understand why you don't understand it like friday

and, you know, the patient has to confront her with his own neurosis before he or she can put it right. and they're not, they're not doing mister for him. and i have to confront our own fascination with this conversation in order to take a short break. but we will be back in just a few moments that you ah a ah, ah, ah

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ah, welcome back to well, the part with ella freeman, co director of the geopolitical economy, research group at the university of manitoba. now was a freeman. let's now turn our attention to the war in the ukraine and in one of your recent articles you both and that i think doesn't have the right to

exist in the western universe. you ask if nato one in ukraine, and if the russian army was driven back to the border, would there will be a better or worse place. and i'm sure it looks like a no brainer to most of your countrymen. why? even asking a thing like that, isn't that an ass in my to a western ear? i asked the question because of the defect in the western so called left. even the far left, even the people you'd expect would be very revolutionary africa against nato. because they have fallen prey to, i think, an illusory way of thinking, which is they think that russia is an imperialist power. i think the china listening period is power. that's there. when the united states is not simple, right? i mean, what they get wrong is very simple. imperialism is not what a single country does. imperialism is system and an un present put in,

put it there way i would agree with. i don't always agree with peyton to agree with them on this, that he says that essentially the colonial attitudes to shake the world. the colonial methods have been in place since 1492 and they're just being continued so they don't understand that. so what i was trying to say is, will look, you say you're against russia, okay. i'm not going to stop you being against russian. probably not going to stop. you do anything because it's very stop it. very difficult to stop stupid people being stupid person will think. what will happen if nato wins. do you think this will be a good outcome? and the answer is no. and the reason is because the motivation of, of the night hope house is fundamentally racist. now racism least a genocide, 1st truthful would they believe that they are superior. if you think that you are superior and that's why you are rich, why's everybody else tour? you shut out of your mind, the idea that they are poor because you are making them, by robbing them by getting to buy your faults and all the rest of it. and you think

no, it must be because they are inferior people. what do you do with inferior people? gorilla girded thus dust the attitude of the americans to black people thus ever can attitude to russian people on parade to chinese people. and so this is clear in ukraine because of the course of the war, which is this is a civil absolutely clear. you have a country in which 43 percent of the pay people, their native language is not ukrainian. and you tell them they've got to taught ukrainian or, or break the law. they can't, they can't do the course. and it's not just about the telling them to learn the language of a nation. it's actually specifically making russian, this new city or russian cultural heritage. and, you know, being seen as incompatible with the ukrainian civic identity. it's not something that you should be ashamed of. it's something that you can be killed because of and i heard you say, suggest that it's i came to the united states banning spanish or canada,

banning french, and indeed seems inconceivable. are in the western context. and yet, when it comes to the russian language, not only in ukraine, but let's say in the baltic states, why do you think that practice of you know, explicitly deliberately suppressing the rational language, the rational culture of the russian mentality. why do you think it's been an acceptable to the west? i think that in, in, in 2014, i visited crimea. and we met with people who had just been in the odessa massacre. lo and they were looked into a traded german, intra trading and billing, which is and center and alive. yeah. learn to like what struck me was, i mean, cushions, it's horrible thing, but accidents can happen. but at the right wing, ukrainian groups then posted pictures of the child bodies on the social media networks. and i spoke to the people there and it was absolutely clear that what was in process was the general final process was a violent assault on people that ukrainian fascist, grew far right. i'm there is

a left and ukraine. it's deeply suppressed, but there is a left on it. and, you know, i think that the opposition party admitted chic was who 2nd in the pulse before he was suppressed them later. prisoner right. ok. so they think that the russian people don't belong there. when zalinski says he wants to take back crimea, he doesn't mean he wants to cry me and people you can't take over placing which 90 percent of the population hates you and is of the different civilization and culture because they kind of fight. right. so what do you do? kill him. it's intrinsically genocidal. this attitude, the only way that you can live in the territory which you crying claims for itself is to be a ukrainian leads to the conclusion that the people are not ukrainian should be eliminated. so it's a deadly racist and it's entrenched in it. the question of why america supports it . i think in 2014, when victorian newland was caught by the finish. and it was the finish intelligence

authorities, telephoning and saying to ukraine, exactly who they could have in their government. right. in other words it's, this was a gum construct. one can debate whether it was a co or not. okay. but what is indisputable is that that gahan was appointed by the united states of america know by the people of ukraine. and i think that was the decision of the new kong wing her politics that it was not possible to pursue american ends by so called democratic liberal means they would need to make alliances with fascists. to do so, and i think there is now a very conscious awareness among certain sections that the american a least not all of them are, that they actually have to be in alliance with explicitly racist genocidal and fresh forces. if america is to prevail in the world which know that, that's their insane view. now are on that specific point,

according to the russian view, or what the kremlin essentially did with the launch of the military operation in ukraine is to bring that proxy war that the west has been waging against russia for at least the past 15 years into the open, and that was made not only for strategic, but for tactical reasons, because like in put in supposedly calculated that it clash with native was inevitable that a waiting for a longer or trying to solve it. diplomatically with not averred the confrontation. i wonder if that was your view as well. prior to the launch of the russian offensive. did you think before that, that russia and the west inevitably would confront each other in some way or another? it kinetically. i don't like to get into reached in conversations about internal politics of other countries. so i don't like to speculate too much about what my motivated putin. i will so this i think that both sides were probably aware the

from 2014 onwards, the good, a confrontation was enough of some kind. and there was a gearing up. i think that what seems to have been the belief in russia was that there was a peaceful way out. and they thought that there was a peaceful way out because they thought european civilization would accept them. and i think this was a profound error because european civilization is not set law zation. it's an empire, and they would never have allowed rusher. and they could never have allowed russian to become an influential part as a sphere of european politics. and i thought what was very interesting about the speech that are letting their tooting gave at the val di club was that he specifically spoke what is europe and, and he spoke of the, to europe's. and i think the vision of your, of the house is the correct vision, which is that there is a eurasia, and within that europe could play its part. so at fun,

some future time. i think that it should be a general come coming together of the ration nations, let's say, in a polity which might include europe. but the idea that this could be achieved, and i have been a long time in turkey, turkey the many years thought that they would be accepted as the european union. there was no why the european union could accept a country that has a bigger army than anybody else in europe, or they couldn't have accepted it. so this illusion that european civilization will let you in was a danger. i think that was the problem. europe is a fortress, that's what it in dr. freeman. and when you talk about european civilization away, when i think about this term, it includes spirituality, it includes culture, it includes very diverse history, includes certain diplomatic traditions, like for example, the european cancer. the it's, it's a massive heritage that both russia and turkey have benefited from on the some

could argue that they had actually the 2 preservers of that heritage. and i think putting in, he's evolved a speech on the line that despite this current conflict with the western financial and political and military elites, russia remains a truly european culture or country by persuasion. and i like some european nations, we're not going to bad european coltrane. i see a lot of investments now going into the ancient greek art into various european cultural tradition. so hopefully this war, or this existential crisis that we are facing right now will allow at least some of us to preserve certain amount of european heritage. anyway, we have to leave it there, but it's been a great delight for me to talk to you meals. thank you so much and thanks for watching hope to syria again. well, the part with

with me for ah

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