doing this to finish everything they started in regards to forming coastal those independence. mocking the anniversary of nato's bombing. if you could, flavio, you can head over to r t dot com, to show documentary on the events of those years. shutting lights on the lives of people who came face to face with today, our armed forces joined our nato allies and airstrikes against serbian forces. ready ah, the glove, but the report about the visit. okay, we'll get this going from bad to worse grade tonight. skyline again, it's by flames. nato insisted it's strikes against this love. ya would go off me the me as leslie cost

me. yes. you know, your bush is the most because i do get disconnected as of this and i . ready ringback ringback me, thanks for joining us on last, nationally, always appreciate your company will be back in 30 minutes with more of the very

late. ah, me ah, ah, ah, ah ah . hello in welcome the crosstalk where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle in the west. it's called a marriage of convenience, but for russia in china, their relationship is strategic and an alternative to the west, so called rules based order with the west refuses to recognize the russians. and the chinese practiced is called multi polarity

cross fucking multiple parity. i'm joined by my guess, andy mach in beijing. he's a senior research fellow at the center for china and globalization also in beijing . we have john gong. he is a professor at the university of international business and economics. and in new york we cross the danny hyphen. he is the host of left lens. our gentlemen cross stock rose in effect. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i would appreciate that, andy, let me go to you in beijing. do you like the term marriage of convenience because it sounds very arrogant to me because it means that the west is the proper suitor for other countries. it's. there's a built in bias if you think about it, go ahead, andy. no, there absolutely is. and i think, you know, i did a video for c, g t n a last month about how western media is subtly and invisibly poisoning it's audiences with these in, you know, these insinuations and these distortions been this phrase,

marriage of convenience is exactly one of those john, the same question to you because they've been talking about this marriage of convenience for a long time and all a while russia and china has reached out to each other. they've reached out to the entire world. um, you know, the, the, the marriage of convenience is more like the united states and its nato allies. i would say that's a shotgun marriage of convenience. okay, absolutely. i mean, you're, you're best how i destroys a pipeline of yours. what, what kind of marriage is that? okay? but how to more serious know, john, i mean, again, this is a very arrogant and narrative about how the world should revolve around the west, but it's not so much anymore, and that's what really irritates them. go ahead, john. i wouldn't characterize this as a marriage because otherwise most conscious would be accused of polygamy. i guess the china maintains discount operation ships was many countries. but i think what's

unique here is that the russia is company, as we all know it, you know, engaged in a water ukraine. the entire west is fighting essentially my views. if i need an attorney, takes the neutrality position on china. you maintains a, in a fairly good relationship with most countries and the scope in this case particularly was, was russia. i think, you know, it's a, it's a very special relationship in the past. and in a sense that washer, that accuses china being of siding on the russian side, which is something that aging categorically deny that we're going to have. so i think, you know, most countries look at the economics relationship, radical relationship most friday. so i think you know, beverage, but certainly it's an example of maintaining a good relationship, a strategic relationship between oh, great powers and in that will of uh you know,

the most conflict climb. i'm glad think john, you talk about the great powers because the west doesn't like that. okay. that's what that smacks and spheres of influence and stuff like that. actually, you know, we're going back to traditional geo politics of great powers, and i think it's healthy because it breaks a gemini, when one country has a gemini, it is dangerous for the entire system. and this is what we're thing, danny. you know, the russia and china and other countries are challenging the west, but they're not only challenging the west. they're pretty presenting an alternative . and this is what the west doesn't tell their publics that there is an alternative way of doing geo politics. it's more peaceful and absolutely more prosperous for, for all people in the world. and it's no wonder that russia and china appealed to the global south, or the global majority is, i think it should be called go ahead, danny. well, that's exactly right. and what russia and china are doing is through their strategic partnership, they are actually leading by example in

a way that is hitherto not existed prior. during the cold war, there was a lot of confrontation in a lot of antagonism between the rising powers to the east, china and russia. and of course, the united states. now russia and china have turned in this direction of multi polarity and have made it very clear that they're not targeting any 3rd party in that they would if they could have relationships, real strong relationships with the collective west in with the united states. but what they are actually doing is taking the high ground here, and that is driving the neo con, foreign policy establishment. absolutely mad. because what russia and china are actually doing through their c teaching partnership, is showing the world that the united states in the collective was, aren't actually needed at this time. that to rising powers, developing countries that are fast becoming leaders in the global south can actually chart a path forward internationally that doesn't include the problems and the

consequences of unipolar her gemini, that the united states has shown quite clearly, is a disaster for the planet whether we look at ukraine or they look at the rest of the world and how it is staring under us domination, leading by example. you're absolutely right, andy, this is, this is what's really important here. is that what we're, danny just told us, you know, not, not targeting a 3rd country, but the west. they want to have a relationship that it suits them and their interests only. and everyone else has to adapt. now for a good point for the post, more environment, yes, that was, that happened quite a bit, but it's no longer happening anymore. and more and more people are rejecting this, this kind of arrangement on the global stage. when one country decides everything, it is, there is no check on that one country and that what, that's what makes it very dangerous for the international system. and i would even say for western publics as well. go ahead, andy. well, that's absolutely true, peter. and i think the key phrase here or term is hypocrisy. and this is not

just on the international stage, but domestically is well i think this is what are the u. s. and the handful but dwindling handful of countries that stand with it are so afraid. and i think angered by in that when we look at the exploitation domestically that most americans are really are in a state of debt peonage. and that this is replicated on the global stage as well. ah, that what china and russia and other countries are showing is, there is another way that works just as well, if not better than the quote unquote american way. and if enough americans see this, i think this is going create real problems for the sustainability of, of the american power structure. and we're seeing this change as president see mentioned these changes unseen in a 100 years, yet law that could also spar

a reappraisal domestically in the u. s. as well. and i think this is what is so threatening. yeah, well you know, it's threatening john is that in a very short amount of time on china broker to do between iran and saudi arabia presented the world with a piece of plan for ukraine. oh, my goodness. why the chinese doing this? how dare they get involved in these they, this is what is so astounding. watching american cable news their hair is on fire is that we're supposed to do this. yeah, you've been doing it for like 70 years and you've screwed up the world pretty badly . maybe you should pass the baton to somebody else for a change. i think that will resonate with, with the american and public if they were explained in, in a very truthful manner. what's going on? of course they're not. go ahead, john, go, i can come most of what you said, but i let this be a little bit on a scares that the on saudi arabia and iran, happy engaged, a sort of behind don't go sions what i had

a while actually are just by themselves and i think, but what's significant here is that finally they, they did cut the ribbon, they shake hands in b, g, i think, biggest the most significant event. and i think this is with it from where we're at so far it's. it's mostly all the saudi arabia's choosing actually, and i think although the prince over there, people, cody, man b. s. did this, the deliberate, he did, he make this thing happening pages to make a point to washington that the house is another all broker here in the middle east . in all honesty, i don't think china wants to play a sort of a substitution or role of bees of a you washing that? i think you know, as you maintain gratian ships was practically every body, every player in a bit of age. i mean, you talking about, oh, you know, the jewish, the arrow sort of the turks are in a charming taste. good relations with each one of them. and there is a major tre, paul. they've not the largest trading partner with each one of these countries. so

i think, you know, china's engagement miller is, is mostly from a commercial point of view. it's also from a sort of a, you know, a good diplomatic relationship. what have you. nevertheless, i think again, i want to emphasize that a disadvantage is significant. the sense that the emacs, the, and the of an arrow, an error america, you know, totally dominating the landscape of the middle east on now. oh, as a new play i. hell, i'm glad you brought up that point there. danny. i mean, i'll be more specific in my question to you, but basically the same theme is that, you know, at china is not replacing the united states. it's not what it's trying to do. but china is a great power in involved with the saudis and iranians. they're not choosing side. see the u. s. always choose aside. ok. and generates a. com. when the chinese are saying now you guys can shake hands and you could do it in our capital, but it's up to you to move it forward. and i think that's the message that beijing was sending in beijing is not picking aside in

a conflict. that's very wise for over a great power. go ahead, danny. yeah. and in what china is doing to, is there demonstrating what exactly is important in international relations? what exactly is the most important factor in developing stable international relations in that is economic cooperation. and so a china has done all around the world through its various mechanisms like the baltimore initiative is mirror the stability that it is experiencing right now internally. so all of what is being lay diplomatic before china, all of its ascendancy in the diplomatic sphere and in leadership fear economically and politically is all made possible by its domestic stability. and that's one aspect of this that doesn't get much conversation here, but china doesn't take sides because it understands in order to have stability internationally. there has to be cooperation at a very broad in

a very deep level. that doesn't mean that china doesn't take positions that has taken a position on the ukraine crisis. it has made clear that it takes all the security interest of all parties concerned. it also has taken positions on issues like sanctions and has opposed them in it. it opposes any kind of unilateral aggression . so china has taken positions world wide, but has understood that in order to have stable international relations in order to develop in a peaceful manner. and in order to ensure that all the interests as, as fully as possible, are mary wells, artes danny dana. i have the jump in, we have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on multiple arity. stay with archy ah ah,

i my name is franklin richardson, philadelphia got in the moment any age, 13 or 14 do we are violent towards those people because we believe that we're in a race. we're here 1st and this is our country being part of that movement. i got a sense of power. when i felt powerless, we got attention when i felt invisible and accepted when i talked to level life after, hey, is an organization that was founded by for a skinhead neo nazi white supremacists in the u. s. in canada. and they found each other and they knew that they wanted to help other guys get out. was 2 parts to getting out of a violent extremely good. the 1st part is disengagement, which is where you leave the social group. and then the next part is d. radicalization where belief systems yeah, you all to remove that was very impactful. when someone finally came along with no

fear, no judgement, you heard my story did nothing to challenge it. when i was showing wrong, when i was just a yes to see how the same because of the advocate and engagement, it was betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground the welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter belgium and you were discussing multi polarity. i me okay,

let's go back to andy and beijing. andy, i'm a child of the cold war i make. i don't really hide my age. ok. i was brought up during the cold or i remember the rhetoric. i remember some of the crisis these as well. and it would seem to me that, you know, when, when i was being brought up, you know, it was the communist bloc, the ideology and merciless. and it's, and the greatness and all it was really evil. it was really pitts that way. but you know, now what the end of the cold towards the west, it's become intensely ideological and intensely bias. i mean, again, i work in the news business. i'm a media person and i watch a lot of media. and just the, the how vapid western media is when it comes to countries like china and in china is the least idea. logical on the world stage of, of the great powers. go ahead, andy. well, i think you're absolutely right. and you know, i think one of the big differences is the u. s. during the cold war and today really demonizes and seeks to divide. where's the chinese approach is

based on 2 foundational principles that are related. the 1st is benevolence and the 2nd is maturity. and i think this is very, very different. we see this reflected in china's foreign policy approach. and i want to go back to john's point about saudi arabia, that this was highly symbolic. and i think what so important here is that it also may mark the unraveling of american hegemony, which is based on the petro dollar. so we go back in history. ah, that nixon by abandoning the gold pegging the dollar to golden, making it a fiano currency, essentially worthless piece of paper that the only way or the u. s. could keep the game going was by a strong arming the saudis into taking dollars for oil. and that was allowed the dollar to to continue. and now we may see the end of that as the saudis are

symbolically a showing a greater independence and practically excepting the un, ah, for oil that we may be on the cusp again, of these changes unseen in a 100 years. well, in get to that point, john, i mean, this is that, you know, again, have i stated also already in this program is that, you know, the, the west turns it into a confrontation. but so many countries like russia and china are saying, when i don't know, we don't want confrontation with you, we're just going to do things in a different way. and alternative way. you can join us if you want. but if you don't want to join us, a lot of people are going to follow us. i'm, you know, i'm thinking of the bricks and things like this where there are, there's a world beyond the west is a very long literature about this, actually. and so, you know, avoiding confrontation in looking for a more hum, harmonious way of moving forward. and again, you know, the last 70 years or, or been so turbulent. it's time to change your way of looking at the world. had

gemini, is dangerous. it multiple arity is the way forward. i think this is what the great powers of job china rusher saying. go ahead, john. that's it. you're absolutely right. you know, that's exactly what's happening. but you know, this is a scenario. so tell me, washington like it and, and is trying to, at least in the, in the global media was trying to show it as, as, as, as a, something else in a essentially, you know, this confrontation in the ukraine is somehow a frame as a addle between the democracy. whoa. and also a terry, a woke up interest in a and i did a bit of speech just recently actually of moscow a few weeks ago about a form of my argument is, is, is that look, and i, you look at all the countries, it's talk about middle east here, all the punches, who's that, you know, take a position on this, won't take up. others you regarding the,

the sanction thought is war unanimously. been under the countries in the middle east has taken a sanction approach towards russia. and these countries ranch from full democracy, us as, for example, his will to monarchy such as a saudi arabia farm. you know, how to religious countries, the secular countries from washington's arch enemies, to walk his closest allies. and from all kinds of political spectrum, i think, you know, this, this, this, the right you, this, the reachable fog democracy against author return to the zone is totally not sincere by, well, you know, danny, i mean, you can think of january 6 prisoners or hostages. if you want to call them in the united states, not very democratic there. i mean, democracy is challenged within the united states that alone exporting it to other countries. danny, what is the, the term rules based order mean to you? because i, i've been hearing this now for the entire biden ministration, and i can't get a straight answer. what does it mean? because when i listen to president, she,

i listen to president putin. i understand what they want to do, non interference of other in other countries. sovereignty respect, respect, collaborative, other countries. but then they throw in the rules based order. what is it mean to you? well, rose based order is essentially code for us lead order, us dominated world order. that's really all it is because united states has trampled all over international law for more than 70 years since the end of world war 2. and the united states, even at this moment, is so open in blatantly you hubert, thickly, arrogant about issues like the ukraine crisis, for example. where on the one hand, they say they respect ukraine sovereignty and on the other say they could never allow ukraine to, to tack onto or agree to a chinese lead proposal for peace. so really all the u. s. is talking about when it talks about a rules based order is a u. s. dominate order. one,

where the u. s. makes the rules in the u. s. enforces its own rules, which generally means dominating other countries, the stabilizing entire region, and economically and politically benefiting from these imperialistic ventures. you know, and i, we listened to spelt and read the head of nato. he's on the way out, but he has great ambitions for the, for the alliance going into the pacific now. but i thought nato was a defensive alliance. why does it need to go to the other side of the world? what is it defending there? okay. i mean, there's a double speak that keeps coming out of western capital. no, no, no, we're just defensive. we're defensive here. well, they why they have a string of bases around china and the south china sea always called the south time fee because it's next to china. right. go ahead, andy. i think there's a couple of interesting things going on with this peter. so 1st of all, we have to recognize that nato is really not as independent as it might want to

portray itself that the u. s. plays are very decisive role. and the u. s. recognizes that just as it cannot compete with china fairly economically, that it has to resort to these kind of underhanded tactics to try to slow down china's development rather than improving itself. it also recognizes that it cannot engage in these military efforts to contain china on its own and has to marshal what resources it can. i think this is where we see nato coming into play here. but the other thing we have to recognize to, to come back to this idea of changes unseen in a century is that the original logic for nato was to keep germany down russia in the u. s. in. and i think there's a growing awareness in europe and in germany that should germany be kept down

forever. and that is it time for germany to take a greater role. and in fact, a reproach more with russia makes a lot of sense. and i know many german business people that it's very impolitic to say these things, but you know, they recognize the reality of we may be again witnessing and unraveling in a realignment here. ah, of, you know, that may see the end of nato. well, you know, john absolutely would. and he just said here, i mean that, that, and this is the whole point of this, this conflict in ukraine that was provoked by nato expansion after the illegal aku in a cab and 2014. i'm and then you have the suddenly, you know, the pipelines blow up here. well, everybody knows what, why that was done. and it was exactly for the reason that, and you decided is to break any kind of

a strong relationship between germany and russia. well, they succeeded. okay. and the future of germany's economic base is in question right now. without cheap energy, it's not going to be the power house of europe. ok. but, you know, when you see a hedge, a mom that is declining, we can see that it gets quite dangerous. i mean, provoking a war and ukraine blowing up pipelines back in the international criminal court when they're not even a member of it. i mean, this is really reckless. i would be worried if i were you in beijing? well, the notion that does the nato is a defense organization is already one of the biggest jokes ain't obviously not on an when stano boat talking about i thought, well, when he was talking about, you know, a natal hotness, we're actually in the asia pacific region. oh it's, it's about a war or something. oh, so every time you know, talking about security architecture, so called

a security architecture that we secured. if i'm home yet to ask this question, secret of am will right? so immediately stood up a little bit and talking to antagonistic relationship with somebody. and that's my reward. so i think that we have to be as ancient here and i, i, i'm a firm belief that you know, lead the anger management. a judge of nato has no business in the pacific region, is no business in indiana, which has no business in the pacific ocean. ok, so love, you know, this whole notion of, of dental security architecture. you know, they told us here in this region, it doesn't make sense that all. there was a last in a, apparently, this is a direction that i think that net is gonna take on and doesn't very bode well for the peace and prosperity in this region. less very wars. so danny, we have 40 seconds left. he can finish it up for his. i agree with what andy and john just said here were very,

very dangerous times right now. 45. not 40 seconds to you, danny shore. well, the united states in a collect the wes are backing themselves further and further into a corner, the more aggressive they become toward russian, china's partnership, the more actually they bring them closer together. and furthermore, it's not as if russian china don't have strategic interests of their own, which necessitate cooperation and actually leave the united states and collect the west on the sidelines. and that's exactly why there is such a problem with this partnership from the united states aside. that's right, because they don't have to be a suitor. they think that they're indispensable, indispensable, that they are so necessary. no, they're not. and that's what we're finding out there. not necessarily the west is not necessary for the world to move forward. and that has a very, very bitter pill for the west to swallow. gentlemen, that's all the time we have. want to thank my guests in beijing and to new york, and want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t. c. an exam to remember prospect ah

ah . operation, the aerodynamic began shortly after world war 2 and lost it almost 3 decades. it wasn't a major effort to try and split the ukraine off from the soviet union, u. s. intelligence. together with hypnos, executioners drained hundreds of saboteurs to be deployed in the soviet union restores another use of wonder. so will have started with the on service unions. more than today, security service of ukraine use is not only the statistic methods, but also the ideology of the nationalist. a

with a russian girls were united with their relatives. my code lost an agreement is reached with. i thought that parents rested in ukraine with people in uniforms ran into a apartment. the light switch turned off because somebody fell on the switch. they started to twist my dead zone. we saw people laying on the floor with their hands behind their heads. us vice president, pamela howard. it's a to visit africa later this week, i made a motion to the space that the continent is drifting towards russia and china. with the most civilians, the wounded.