or to arrest a major drug kingpin. the operation goes bad. the bad guy gets away and the senior cia officer pops up in the scene. i know from my experience of 15 years and to see that the scenario was completely true and accurate. the d. e. a mission is to stop the flow of drugs into the united states and to prosecute those people who are responsible. the c a's mission is essentially to do whatever it once with little or no oversight. the cia has long been obsessed with communism. and beyond that, with terrorism, if drug king pins are willing to identify communist and alleged terrorists, then the cia is willing to cast a slot with drug king pins. and the d e a is supposed to just sit there and take it . we're going to talk about this relationship with our next guest. michael levine has been described in the u. s. media as america's top undercover cop for 25 years . a career veteran of the drug enforcement administration. he's a respected author and lecturer,

having appeared as an expert witness in more than 500 civil and criminal trials in the u. s. and abroad. he's lectured on the undercover operations and human intelligence for the u. s. defense intelligence agency and the federal bureau of investigations advanced under cover seminar as well as for the new york state division of criminal justice services and the royal canadian mounted police. there aren't many people in the world who know more about undercover operations than michael levine. michael, thank you so much for joining us. my pleasure, son. i have so many questions for you that i barely know where to start. i suppose we should begin with this relationship that the cia seems to have had for decades with people and organizations that are active targets of the da. i remember when i was at the cia drugs were of literally no concern to us transferring into the cia counter narcotics center was considered to be a career ending move. and as it turned out,

the cia was working against the d. e. a for much of that time. tell us about that. well, i'm going to give you my personal experiences and as i would for with testifying in court, i initiated the case while i was the c d. a station chief when, when a site's an object tina and the case was into a member, the name of hubbard pope suarez roberto suarez subsequently was called the biggest drug dealer alive before secret session of congress. da. at that time, didn't even know it was when i got involved with suarez. i learned that he was dealing massive amounts of cocaine all over the world. he was literally controlling the flow of cocaine globally. as i started

reporting this to the drug enforcement administration, my 1st orders came down that i was to open my files to central intelligence. my. this meant that i opened this massive wall sized wall and they just came at their will with, from the station within the embassy and began to go through the files, the re berto suarez case began to make copies take them. there was nothing. i could say. i had been ordered by dee to open those files. so it's kind of ironic that after i retired from d e, again writing a i put a foyer request. let's see i for my, my files. anything that are under my name and it came back. we have not, i see what i found out in working the

roberta, slowest case, strange things started to happen at the differentiates between deep cover and undercover anybody who puts on a suit and carries a gun, calls himself an undercover agent. a deep cover agent is the guy who goes into the enemy's church and seduces him literally out of his life. i, you in d a comments they have when you get on the radio, when you're at the coverage, you say i'm going it often. those are the last words of that man. the undercover agents are the people who stay outside and score. i quote, cover the deep cover man. it at which they really can't do it often. what happens is they do a batch job of covering the, the deep cover asian guys inside see them outside getting burned

as you know what that means. sure. they get burns and the agent dies. consequently, yes, you will, you will read about none of this in the newspaper. with the rebels for this case, what began how it began to manifest their presence in the case was d e a headquarters assigned us a plane that really couldn't do the mission. that is the mission in this particular case, it was the 1st time that was done was to fly a plane into the jungles of bolivia. pick up the 1st load of cocaine from roberto suarez and there deliver them to the united states. the pilots came to me and this is all in my book, the big white lie, which is think this so silly and the the pilot came to me and said displaying is the

wrong place. not only that, it's got an n number that was used to ferry bolivian police no a couple of years ago. but the, this is all in the book and if you go to a book like level reading, you know that you go through a more stringent proof of what you put in then any, any case you would present. and course, you know, yes was money, money money's involved. well, the, we, and this is captured in the book. i told the guy so got to actually get on the plane and fly in to the jungles and said, i wouldn't blame you. he didn't read the bravest men i've ever known, not whether they flew that playing into the jungles, picked up that low to cocaine and against everything. but the drug enforcement

administration and central intelligence could do made it back. and i thank god to this day. if people are seriously interested in c, r a's involvement on the 1st hand, witness is a book. it's only in spanish. ok. i mean, the king of cocaine by either levy, suarez, she, she was present during his meetings this months, the drug dealer with central intelligence, the control of him and his operation was manifest. yes. what along along those same lines, the cia has long been accused of either running drugs or of turning a blind eye while their sources and their cooperators run drugs. gary webb, for example, famously said years ago that the cia had allowed the contra rebels to bring massive

amounts of drugs into the united states. and after his reporting was criticized on the same day by the new york times in the washington post. he committed suicide by somehow being able to shoot himself multiple crimes has uria. as your experience been that this cia willingness to tie itself to some of the most notorious drug traffickers in the world. been a disservice to the united states. what, what is the fall out? been over the long term. do you think are richie this service to the states, the air america read anything you can about air america. a ca proxy airline, which was flying literally flying a heroine heroines, precursors, of course, the golden triangle area i. when i was when i was transferred to da headquarters, i was charged with tracking the flow of the shan united army. at that time they

were trafficking heroin, right across the, the jungles of, of cambodia. island to, to bank up to, you know, an air base in anti ran. and this was where we 1st as a z e asia. i 1st me said words that they were, they were putting the drugs in the bodies of g, eyes being sent back from vietnam. my god, it was this, this was the herman jackson investigation, right. it was my, it was my investigation. it was the only one the, the, the investigation you see in the movies with flying drugs in the core fans, et cetera. that was, i mean, it was really bo, it's as a matter of fact, along with a couple of other

d. e agents who were all corrupt and what not we, we started a lawsuit against the film company, which if you haven't tried us. so a film company that you really law firms. it's right. it. yeah, yeah. i mean, the question is this. see, i get involved with drugs every way possible. every way they use it. yeah, they use it as a political tool. we're going to take a short break. we're speaking with legendary drug enforcement administration officer, michael levine. we're going to take that short break and continue the conversation . stay with us. we'll be right back. 2 2 ah

ah ah, when emily and not of course you go, we use and i made it salem, but i think the chaplain notion was focal more of an anchor clean. so key i cleared him up crowded, requested hitting the hedge even to see if i mean from all to you on me as i watched young lady. and i think kepler's hoyle confronted, i call you a bunch of up pull, no other keys. for example, the watson beach. you are the boys,

i big rush. but as if the books you to pull up, would you send me about a fire panel for gold? i plant family from a do not need the inside until a gene. yeah, i don't home on bad. i've been trying to deal with the game, reviled immanuel good for us. the dick is off. a wife has 4 by 5 in your chills i was on the bus, saw a van capital children i spoke with lucy shantell, assuming in the modem, which really simple ah

my name is frank richardson, philadelphia got in the movement and age 13 going on 14. we were violent towards those people because we believe that we're in a severe race. we were here 1st and this is our country being part of that movement . i got your sense of power when i felt powerless. when i felt visible, accepted when i talked to level life after, hey, is an organization that was founded by 4 o skinhead,

neo nazi white supremacists in the u. s. in canada. and they found each other and they knew that they wanted to help other guys get out is 2 parts to getting out of a violent extremist group. the 1st part is disengagement, which is where you leave the social group. and then the next part is d. radicalization we're belief systems audiology are removed. it was very impactful. when someone finally came along with no fear, no judgement, you heard my story did nothing to challenge it without. welcome back to the whistle, blowers i'm john kerry. aku, we're talking about the antagonistic relationship over drugs and drug trafficking between the cia and the drug enforcement administration or d e a and were joined by one of the most highly respected drug enforcement professionals in american history. that's michael levine. thanks again for being

with us. thank you, john giving me a chance. this is so much cheaper than a psych ha i. i'd be interested to know about your bureaucratic experiences with the cia over the years. certainly, you've gone head to head with the agency on these issues. what was that like and what kind of administrative and perhaps political support did you receive if any? well, i once asked when i was in, when i was stationed at the embassy in argentina, i once asked them for the lens of a listening device. they, they give me and i tried a few times tamra listing the vice, nothing. you get got nothing from the cia, it's not that that's so, so very important. but they had all of this going on in the

american press about how the cia is now involved in the drug war. and you had all these international d, e, p, cover agents, all laughing and say, well yeah, they are the way that what i want to impress on that impress a, i want you all to know the audience. you know to that i right now function as a trial consultant, an expert witness. you could see my bona fide, he's on police trial expert dot com. it will tell you the kind and the level of cases in which i am now testifying. and if i said anything that could be used against me on a witness, then they'd grab it from this, but there's nothing that i'm saying that's not so well documented that we can,

we can open up a separate court case or it. and it's a really important for the audience to understand that. and other than that, let it rip, i'm again, really happy to be really happy to be a john on thank you. one of the accusations that you made against the cia, and i have to tell you, i believe every word of it was that it negatively in food influenced a very important da operation. you said that the cia was instrumental in the creation of something called the called lock core to put, i see on it's a, it was a bolivian drug cartel, which you, what's called the general motors of cocaine. can you tell us about that? yes, it's again, it's in the book. good. me quite like that. sorry. if i live long enough, i should write a whole of you know, dating it. but it, it's all the, the general motors of cocaine. i call in the general motors of cocaine because at

the time the cia was doing its best to destroy d e 's case against roberto suarez, he, he was a, it was everywhere i. he was putting together cocaine, manufacturing, cocaine organizations, cocaine trafficking roots all over the globe. at this point. i think i called the general they were the general motors cocaine, particularly at a time when america we, when you or you saw in the newspapers was press about the scourge of cocaine. right . what it's doing president was saying it's worse than any kind of, of a, an attack by an enemy. it's the worst thing that our country was facing. is the number one enemy, and this central intelligence with their asset putting together a. the only way to quote is the general motors of cocaine. there was,

there were globally influencing trafficking that with trafficking just with general motors in lucky feel. it's jani. she only the only metaphor, the only alan an analogy i could come up with at the time that was the jap you've written, you've written several highly acclaimed books and like all of us involved in national security, you had to have those books cleared by the da they cleared all of them and the books still had explosive new information in them. in one you alleged that reagan era attorney general ed meese who's actually still walking around washington, you run into him every once awhile. he had blown the cover of a da undercover team that had penetrated the office of the president of mexico and in 2011 bolivian president evo morales. held up a copy of one of your books for the press and used it as justification to throw da

out of the country. in fact, if yes, if he had read the book, he would have cathy said, da, in the country and he would have thrown the cia out of the country. tell us about those incidents. exactly. they were a shock to me, actually. oh i, i saw writing that book. nobody was was, you know, i thought when sean was discreetly my entire career, i had been under investigation from day one. the investigation continued to years after, but yet nobody was aware of what i was doing. i don't know how that happens, john, you could probably explain that better than me. this isn't just enough that smart. i'm with the fact bureaucrats, most of the bureaucrats. i met a just really not that smart. they come from a class of people that all they seem to think about is the wrong self

aggrandizement, right? our. and if you feed them, you know, i was very good at the cover. what, because i knew i know how to seduce people. i knew how to seduce very bad backs. me . well, it's almost the same logic when you're dealing with a bureaucrat yours. oh yeah, yeah. so, yes. can you explain me? i can't. i really can't explain me. i'm just incredibly lucky. or they weren't watching the saw. the right, what else? yeah. but what else can you say about that? you know, i think when aldrich ames was a c i, agent, and 7 years at that time he spent working for working for the k g b, right? when they finally on him, when they put him, they put him in charge of cocaine, of the drug, see where you don't have to even have to think about it

a age. and so just like talking to you because i like to sit privately with you and i love it, i'd love it. and you know what? let me, let me add something to your, to your thought there. i see a psychiatrist once told me that the cia actively seeks to hire people who have what he called sociopathic tendencies. not sociopaths, because sociopaths are impossible to control. but the problem is, if you're a sociopath, you have no conscience. and so you blow right through the polygraph exam. and so while the see, i says that it doesn't want sociopaths. in fact, the place is full of sociopaths. and that's how they get themselves into these predicaments. yeah, e a, having a conscience is like dragging an anchor around in that world. that's right. your world. you can't, you just can't. you're exactly right. that's exactly what it is. i can't,

so some of the things, you know, muscle, a veteran and i, i, i am getting peachy care from veterans administration. right. who considered, who considered my experiences as, as he cover agent? what traumatic bedra, motor experiences and how i believe that read and their logic, they say, well, you serving your country so you know, it all comes that's right. all comes under this, but that's right. you know, i've, i've awakened in the middle the night more than once shouting, where's my gun, which just used to panic. my, my wife and tell us what you are and what you're doing to stay busy. now i know that you continue to testify as an expert witness all around the country. you right, you continue to speak and you have

a radio show. how else can our viewers keep abreast of the work that you do? i michael levine. books that com exxon as videos of ill. it is you the everything about the book itself. it's really important if you're interested a glitch, trial expert, that com lease trial expert that. com is my professional website. yes, this is what i do now. i am deeply, deeply involved, my wife and i are writing another book. excellent. i know it, helen will live long enough to finish all this things. i'm not sure what that is. okay, to what, what, what i want to say was why i was assigned to argentina. i was told to activate these special special action units as ac unit.

the size happened to be serial chose ha, there were there were, they were the ones offering all the argent time they. i gave her sushi, i the dirty were what the 3 guys were, the guys that i was paid to. i have is my asked in when some of the things that my job expose me too. i can even talk about it's it you. i think you'll get it from reading a book, so you deep cover and the big white line. and as john pointed out, it both pest excruciating level review. so then they have a real deal. and again, if you can yet. oh, great. they left robina by aida levy suarez. she's

a 1st san witness to cie, people coming into her house while he was running cocaine across the world. and it is no wonder the book was never translated to english. because this, this, the only thing winder book is she thought i was a c, i n a oh my goodness. well, there's, since i only regret that we have such a short period of time to talk. so i want to thank you, michael levine for joining us today. and thanks to our viewers for tuning in substance abuse is a very real trap and a curse on our society. drugs are very much like an abusive lover, who treats you well at 1st and then beats you up apologize as treats you nicely for a little while longer and then beats you up again. the trap is hanging in there for the good while trying to overlook the bad that can never work. and we're fortunate to have people like mike levine and the officers nations of the da trying to

protect us. i'm john kerry aku. and this has been the whistleblowers. we'll see you next time. aah! [000:00:00;00]

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