just 2 decades later, after the massacre in namibia hitler's assault unit put on the same brown colonial uniform which pushed the world into the chasm of the 2nd world war mm. mm mm mm hm. mm. mm. i welcome to was apart. great powers have always washed each other with a change of jealousy and hostility. but is it inevitable with tennis? recent diplomacy breaking a number of long held your political assumptions. guaranteed to wait for a room where great means not only might is right,

but also responsibility that comes with power. well, to discuss that, i'm now joined by tell me my in just former ambassador to saudi arabia and best a. it's a great pleasure, a great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for time. and you, everybody did. you know, whenever i interview prominent indian thinkers on china, i always feel myself a part of a lot, a triangle because china and india. so big and so close to geographically that i guess it's impossible for them to be neutral to was the child. or having said that, i one dave china recently, breakthrough diplomacy including the success in bringing the saudis in the rainy and student bushy negotiating table. is that worthy of respect and particularly worthy of respect of di indian counterparts? i think you did wendy, or from the indian side, any initiative,

any diplomatic initiative for morse. peace and stupidity in the middle east is, could be welcomed by all of us. and i see no difficulty in welcoming what are what has been achieved in beijing, in bringing together saudi arabia and iraq. there go countries have been changed for far to goal. that has been a lot of the pupils ation exchange between them. the nearly came to conflict or in a set of circumstances in 2019 dr. personally welcomed this initiative, and i will the, the big chinese or they're gonna be able to go forward and we'd be able to success will be address the radius matter that the way. now one of the reasons why i think the news of the saudi iranian deal astonished me is that we have come to take this risk for granted as almost the natural rather than manmade. stayed off by

international affairs. how much do you think your politics and by that i mean this fluid mixed up, there is interest and various influences. how much has it influence the initial rift and how much has it influenced it's apparent resolution? now, i don't have the idea that there is any inevitability in international relations. nor do i believe that there have been any inevitability with regard to the train. when saudi arabia, they have been long beards when they will lose the kingdom of saudi arabia. actually had really gone after the war. you had present us, i'm done with it. and they were able to recite a made an agreement and it was extremely waller. after that then have been issues that you, i did them not necessarily. and with any thing that had happened between them, but

a sense of strategic wonder ability, i will call it in the yard after the rents will be out of iraq and saudi arabia had been ready to look into the will extend about it. it's a northern neighbor, it was so much bigger and had such a large population and considered defense capability for a post concern. but it was also a conscious of the fact that it could board its own because of the, of the asian with the american, the american, the less of all to be security, government them as part of the key the was concern about the situation. did you read? they were brought she conflict and sylvia, and in yemen that do i did them and there was a central 0. some of them are, you weren't changed. the situation fundamentally were the growing, the and i teach him in korea than the americans are more credible security provided

. and it is all this leads. and then for the last few years, the south deeds have been looking at other diplomatic options. and they have been talking to be iranian already from 2021, 2020 to that 5 around we'd be good. but god and it must god. and i would see that the chinese initiative in this back for i would say that yes, this is a really oh positive development into the can be nature of certain conventions on both sides. certainly. but at the same time, we don't for recognizing that china has multiple claim that it is going to be a significant political and diplomatic presence in the region. let me ask you specifically about i, china's role here. and i heard you say before that china recognizes its limits, it understands that problems can only be contrast and hopefully resolve by the countries them. so, but it's ready to provide what psychologists call

a safe container, or what you call a quasi median mediation. this sort of congenial, authentic atmosphere and that where those difficult issues could be tackled or at least discussed. now how important it is and are there any other countries or any other platforms that can provide the safe space for genuine authentic negotiation of difficult issues? the background delayed in china is that that has been the rights of china, and regional and well defense, or the last 4 years. the 1st grantee is their eyes, will it be north proclaimed, every board making progress? and it was concerned that if the western bowers came to know about it, they will do anything to jeopardize it at all. the 1st broccoli mission largely of an economic character about the emergence of china. the worst is,

occur exactly 10 years ago. in 2013 president, she gin being allowed, the one bed, one broad initiative that later became the bed and rolled in the ship. 10 years later, china has announced that it is also going to be a major political clear in word of it. her child, early on this, china believed that it was not familiar with asia, had not been there for a long time, did laura legend the language and culture? but the last 10 years? i have noticed the chinese scholars have been explored. maria, where peace with regard to the region and they are china, their vote is much more confident. the chinese approach is quite different from that of the americans. the american approach is to have a very strong military presence in the region and go have friends in it and

ultimately intervene in political matters through military force. i would say to you really, frankly, that over the last 4 years since the end of book or more, i would say to you that the united states as left the region totally shattered the what the chinese offer is something quite different. they call it where cy, remediation policy with i mediation on key means that we can solve your problems can be stored by can these only through engagement with each other. well, the chinese goal is offered a good offices and then in a sense, encourage dialogue and harmony. they used to work hard, maybe in the thicker them are falling brokers. they are encouraging dialogue between people and standing by it will recall you that this agreement is not. if i

let the event i left, which means that the chinese have made themselves and in the good part of disagreement and therefore have made themselves garrander with success. clearly the, china's reputation as a peace builder or as a mediator has received a significant boost. but there are also some provisions economic provisions in this deal. for example, evasion. i is trying to encourage saudi a rate and iran to conduct any bilateral trade deal being denominated in you on if that comes to pass, what do you think is going to be the significance of that? both for the 3 countries involved and perhaps even broader deck is it still at the me since th and it has some we do, i have ordered you seen a number of reports from maybe a sources indicating an increasing fraction or using you on

or any other non polar marker gland actions if it comes to that in order to facilitate because the united states is believed to have miss yours. the power over the uni that the sanctions, the border on iran, the uni, let her be gone from the nuclear agreement. and the sanctions import, which in polish that country it is seen as a cross missed your order. if you have sanctions, i would say it real very frankly. it currently can him or sanction or work the americans did. taking advantage offers financial status globally in me, the city or the rest of the international community don't participate in sanctions. and that has been that disenchanted. the device will community law number growth, the in west asia as well as in other parts of the seriously concern.

there do this kind of duty let the grossly unfair action can be taken against the law, or did it already has been the trailer or against any other kind of a elephant in the room as well. and then, and again, it's ayesha. g r a, you can already see that the chinese via a oil india has up by the russians on the be despite the sanctions, i would like you to build up on the building can all make the visits broken please that have been unfairly docketed by the american only on our own brokerage by then, just like you look for other options. now i don't know if you would agree with them, but i think that americans tend to view these defines of that universal policy as an ideological move they like to portrayed as a sort of battle like essential battle between democracy and talk crises. but from

what you're saying in the countries and doing that, not out of any ideological or recent, per se, but they're simply pursuing commonsensical, if not survivalists interest to understand you correctly, that it's not so much an act of defying the americans as simply, you know, following your own path and doing what's, what's good for you without necessarily trying to steal something from others. in order to speak to the american policymakers in washington, dc dismissal or a davion was a democratic daddy's no conviction whatsoever. nobody in the world believes in it. for the americans argue with us or argue against us, that is, that legal, it doesn't matter. you will remember that in there by the americans have been the from give support of apartheid south africa authority, the of the gibbs in latin america in africa, or on

a davie of the genes in india. so i am not impressed with this, and it is a, it is wendy of considerable figurative description. we are looking for different as you know, neither china nor gotcha, nor india or iraq or anyone by you decide you make a copy of a new or what we have been educating over the last 20 years or so is that you're looking at the board that told me of it. yes. simply, you didn't order american culture, or we have seen it a large number of countries. i don't know where states they have their own invest and, but they're all good. they've been priorities. didn't want the deem the option or deacon or, or an honesty. there's basically a big issue that you will see in the context of the bought in your grain,

hardly any country or did the american agenda or democracy wizard are already there are works with that. the bank, because the believe beyond the polar where we have, i write a decision in the guy matters as each. okay, well ambassador, we have the right an obligation right now to take a little break, but we will get back in just a few moments. they can, ah ah, ah

ah, ah ah, ah ah, welcome back to worlds apart, but tell me a month in this form ambassador to saudi arabian ambassador. before the break, we were talking about how various countries finally have the result and perhaps the

necessity to pursue that our national interest and the concept of multiple, a world not unnecessarily ideological defiance to the united states, but simply out of our own interest. and i heard you say before that the u. s. is answer to that changing world order has been a new cold war of each i have to say in ukraine, turned into a hot or do you think that will help the americans to hold on to their so called leadership? and i'm not asking for a moral judgment here. do you think that's a good strategic decision to pursue confrontation? read russia as a way of sort of holding on to that? to that, then the benefits that they have been sustaining is mr. broad western word order. and or did you wish you would

that word order is now done bit what you are seeing in ukraine is the last, a desperate attempt by the americans and a fuel west of allies that they have to definitely try to leap in that order is a lot eaten order that has no relation with the word has g. i want to make no point in to see number one. doing that shark media, the americans were the shoulders, will pop out in a word. look at the extraordinary violence and damage that they inflicted. they're all we are cody looking at 20 years after the euro, or the, or shall move that pretty decently, the damage that the americans did in a kind of stuff. we are bored officially, that ha, 4000000 people were killed there during the american occupation local countries in

afghanistan and iraq. now dad is the reason why that is one. the 2nd is deal. there has been either other countries. they are not claiming to look up our data, but they are getting a certain degree of influence and are seeking a needs ones that would recognize these changes. they were to put it very bluntly through their own work order is patsy. and at the barrier, can it be her can be brought, the must be polar, will be ordered. it can or beats already. and look at the shank guy, cooperation organ. i vision, ad breaks and indian ocean, very muffled, asian and numerous other. and did you, none of them will be needed by best and power each of them flourishing on its own dynamics. on the basis of its own logic. i'm going to make one more point and that to that article. and, and is this for the time being certain west european countries have walked in with

the american agenda? is that sustainable, gentle warranty has happened, is remarkably digging and wanted of the war in ukraine. germany is the army. when 100 rock 1000000000 robots were the word have accepted this in any other federal for consensus? point 1.2. can you imagine the job becoming subordinate? the american agenda in see if i worked in years, can you imagine from remaining subordinate could be american it. but i have just been really bad because of insecurity resolve each over. but look at audio audio not willing to join the western alliance again, china. therefore, i'm suggesting that war 2 sheet as a wind dis or around the americans. i believe that i read linda or tool in

it for a j and is not sustainable. can i ask you about that? because this is something that is being discussed in russian circles a lot. namely, what you mentioned, whether we can imagine a re, aren't germany or france remain under the american control or the american command for the next 5 to 7 years. but if we look at the nationally elite of those countries, most of them are western educated, that level of expertise or that level of knowledge, even of the basic european history seems to be very, very limited. what makes you believe that something will happen, and those are great european nations that will provide that kind of leads that will be more if not more assertive against the americans, but then at least a little bit more independent than minding our own interests. it's a difficult question for me go on show. without causing all french, i have as

a loan to pro magic of year of 37 years. i have been bored at the extent of ignorance in western countries, particularly in western europe and united states. with regard to the history culture and their dynamics, the political dynamics of countries in africa, asia, and latin america, even many of their so called experts b, r. so inward looking, they are full, quote unquote, nationalistic than defeat, machine, than the essentials requirement offered to promise. as well as off oh, off objective commentary is that you must know where you're in the look that is coming. you must know what is educating him or her. do much more want out of their priority than into your soul. can you read your only, your own priority? you and you have come lives yourself,

particularly the american. how can you give them so that then and then you need me will in but that if war or good, every american believe that water medical believe that. but all of us, molly nija and africa and latin america that he just completely or so yes, we have a problem. knowledge ok or something that you can go where people are inward looking. and you have smalley leads who are looking only at their own in the band, with water and water and water more. what about their future? and then what yes did is a certain w, lynn said uncertainty in the these in that order. and that just won't be a living living call that they're living through june of uncertainty. i want to ask you a specific question about energy and not so much energy, but rather saudi arabia and utilize your enormous expertise in that area. isn't it

even more striking that china's recent success, the, the saudis intention to and resolved to go their own way? because for many years, the saudis position themselves as a staunch american al. and yet, if we actually look at the recent statements and our recent moves, for example, that commitment to the a park, a class deal, that refusal to sell oil to countries that introduce price caps on the oil, including a, you know, that's the measure that it was by there, by the west, you know, it seems that di, foreign policy is far more independent and far more actually inward looking at any of the countries that you know, surround the west of this point of time. absolutely. right. you know, a wrench in a part of the word game as a surprise to western commentators because did all follow in that logic.

he's got us on price plus b livia. i have watch saudi arabia. you board. we'll with get off. i. yes, there toward them says run medical. they had a small little glitch in of, of our print be 1000000 plus $10000000.00 foreign and they did not have a very strong military tradition. they bought american weapons but had no intention of using when you start getting that change it empty to engage with daughter. donald trump's presidency. ashley larry and in the dish and john clinton best teacher, with regard would be americans being seen of security bro. white obama had started the office or live the some of the rules remark be we're glenitia. it was one of them. what your tick remarks i had heard, because if you want to confront china, you don't need to go glitch. i made you need to go to lead time back and he's in

the south china b 2 be were blue. is that the, the on board vacations, bandy, that they're abandoned, that was the beginning. the 2nd will be nuclear agreement with the iranians at a time when the legion was agitated. of already iranian concerns or need to agree law, you order obama negotiated agreements without consulting any of them. the term warranty period or bonner trump, when they want us to angle between the us. any of our sanctions on be iranian. and that a past that she had back on the oil facilities, all of deeds. and in the i most role was the economy. this american were drawn from afghanistan, from goblin beach, me soul and reward reminded us of how they had backed and blood from vietnam, ordered years ago, the same back then, of abandoning your allies, backing up in a hurry, and then the running of it. as far as you get the region the,

then the listen pretty bit and didn't realize that now a new world order has come. we cannot depend on the americans as security provided all got it. we need to look at them or looking for security, provided the legion itself has come off each. so there's no reason to be surprised . any pupils are prize are those washington dc. unfortunately, brad isn't valid. there's no reason we have been watching this happen for such a long time. the sense of betrayal and the thing about that. and maybe there's also very inspiring message in a little dot. first of all, the fact that it's not only in americans, but any other country in the world that has a sense of its own manifest destiny and the right to proceed on its own terms and in friendly relationship with others. and the 2nd good news is that credibility is not something that comes as a birthright. you actually have to earn it. you actually have to treat others as

you yourself want to be treated. and i think that's the basis of all major philosophical and religious schools. madam, when you speak of manifest destiny, it reminds us on to create horror of colonialism and impeded being carried the white man's good look at the mosque, murder general say that because you know, in the name of civilization, the white being out of the entire red indian community, the american indian community then be quite, be in the institutionalization of slavery, bobby nation, a lot of almost all of the shame africa, the breeder occupation during colonialism vehicle should be like a mini that is not acceptable, but an absolute nonsense. and we should not, none of us have it either the, it to the matter. it grows is our worst question venues. ego nancy realizing

mission. we will say we live 5000 years before any of them. chauncey realisation. therefore in asia, africa, particularly angry or when we hear all these people as it is article about his arms and and light fro orland light of a speaker. does he realizing mission miss abbey? yes. mortal dare say. realizing mission as men must murder. absolutely. and, you know, i once interviewed former, focused on a prime minister in brown holland. and he said that, you know, one of the worst vestiges of colonialism is that nations start to believe that colonial narrative themselves. and i think in a sense, what we've been discussing today's, that many of those countries, a finally ready to read themselves from all those narratives. and you recognize that there's something inherently good and valuable and charitable in that old history and our own national path. and indeed, in that old manifest destiny, because you know, all the nations in the world have something special, something unique to offer. if the international environment supports that,

unfortunately we have to end up here. i'm, as i said, the great the honor than greatly inspired by this conversation. thank you very much . again, it's a great pleasure for me and thank you for watching hope this. you're again next week on the world's apart. ah, with me. oh, what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy foundation, let it be an arms race is on often very dramatic development. only personally,

i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk with ah .