ah, in hello and welcome to was a part time hours have always washed each other with a change of jealousy and still it. is it a negative tennis recent diplomacy? breaking a number of long count, your political assumptions. guaranteed to wait for a room where great means not only might is right, but also responsibility that comes with power. to discuss that i'm now joined by telling me my name is former ambassador to saudi arabia and besta. it's a great pleasure, a great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for time. thank you. everybody did. you know, whenever i interview prominent indian thinkers on china, i always feel myself a part of a lot, a triangle because china and india. so big and so close to geographically that i

guess it's impossible for them to be neutral to what the child are coming. so i wonder if china recently break through diplomacy, including the success in bringing the saudis in the rainy and student bushy negotiating table is that worthy of respect and particularly worthy of respect of di indian counterparts? i think it is wednesday or from the indian side. any, any diplomatic initiative for more peace and stability in the middle east is, can be read by order and i, she wrote it in welcoming whatever has been achieved in bringing to saudi arabia and, you know, their book country is, have been changed or far google that has been medically to put h an exchange between them. they nearly came on the war in

a set of circumstances in 2019 dr. personally welcome this initiative. and i will, the, the big chinese or little garbage would be able to go forward, and we'd be able to success will be address the radius matter right. now, one of the reasons why i think the news of the saudi iranian deal astonished me is that we have come to take this risk for granted as almost the natural rather than manmade. stayed off by international affairs. how much do you think geopolitics, and by that, i mean, this is a fluid mix of various interest and various influences. how much has it influenced the initial rift and how much has it influenced it's apparent resolution? now, i don't accept the idea that there is any inevitability in international religions . nor do i believe that there have been any inevitability with regard to the train

. when saudi arabia, they have been long beards when they will lose the kingdom of saudi arabia, actually, and really quarterly, after the war. you had pres, does us and danny with it. and they were able to recite a, made an agreement, and it was extremely waller visit after that, there have been issues that you, i did them not necessarily connected with anything that had happened between them. but a sense of d. d, one of the ability i will call it in the yard after the rents will be out of iraq and saudi arabia had been ready to look into the will. it's about it's or not. and they were, it was so much bigger and had such a large population and considered defense capability, people's concern. but it was also a conscious of the fact that it could,

it's because of the issue with the american, the american, the all to be security guy. as part of the key, the was concerned about the situation, did you, they were brought she conflict, cynthia and in yemen. did you, i did them and it was essential 0. some of them are, you want change the situation fundamentally want to growing the and i teach him and then the americans are more credible security provided and it is or this leads. and then for the last few years, the so deeds have been looking at other diploma and they have been talking to be iranian already from $22125.00 a month. and i would see that the chinese initiative in this back, you know, so i would say that yes, this is a really oh positive development. it is the con,

the nature of certain conventions on both sides, certainly. but at the same time, we go for recognizing that china has no claim that it is going to be a significant political and diplomatic, but it is in the region. let me ask you specifically about china's role here. and i heard you say before that china recognizes its limits, it understands that problems can only be addressed and hopefully resolve by the countries themselves. but it's ready to provide what psychologists call a safe container or what you call a medium mediation. is sort of congenial, authentic atmosphere and that where those difficult issues could be tackled or at least discussed. now how important it is and are there any other countries or any other platforms that can provide the safe space for genuine authentic negotiation of difficult issues?

the back girl deleting china, is that that has been the rights of china in regional in world affairs or the last 4 years. the 1st grantee is the rise, was low and dinner proclaimed that it, we're making progress. and it was concerned that if the western bowers came to know about it, they will do anything to jeopardize it on the 1st broccoli mission largely of an economic character. about the emergence of china, the worst is a good exactly 10 years ago. in 2013 president, she didn't being announced the one bed, one broad initiative that later became the birth androtti the ship. 10 years later, china has announced that it is also going to be a major political clear in word it. her child, early on this, china believed that it was not familiar with best asia, had not been there for

a long time. did laura legend the language and culture? but the last 10 years? i have noticed the chinese scholars have been explored. maria, where peace with regard to the leisure and they are china therefore is much more confident. the chinese approach is quite different from that of the americans. the american approach is to have a very strong military presence in that region and we'll have friends in it. and also typically intervene in political matters through military force. i would say to nobody, frankly, that over the last 4 years, since the end of book or more, i would say to you that the united states has left the region totally shattered. the what the chinese offer is something quite different. they're all in where sy, remediation policy with i mediation or g means that we can solve your

problems can restored by can these only through engagement with each other. what the chinese goal is all for their offices, and then in a sense, encourage di, logan, army. they use the word hard, maybe in the thicker them are falling brokers. they are encouraging dialogue and standing by it will recall you that this agreement is not. if i let the, it isn't i left, which means that the chinese have made themselves and in the bar of disagreement and therefore have made themselves garrander with success. clearly be china's reputation as a peace builder or as the mediator has received a significant boost. but there are also some provisions economic provisions in this deal. for example, evasion. i is trying to encourage saudi arabia and iran to conduct any

bilateral trade deals are being denominated in you on if that comes to pass, what do you think is going to be the significance of that? both for the 3 countries involved and perhaps even broader deck is it still at the mason's, th, and it does. um we do, i have already seen a number of reports from maybe a sources indicating an increasing fraction or using you on or any other non polar bergland actions. if it comes to that in order to facilitate grid. because the united states is believed to have miss yours. the power over the uni. let those sanctions the board up on iraq. the uni, let her record from the nuclear agreement. and it claimed sanctioned the board which impoverished that country into scene as a cross missed your order. dora,

if you have sanctioned, i would say, agree already. frankly, they can take any or center or work the americans did. taking advantage offers financial status globally in me. the city or the rest of the international community don't participate in sanctions. ready and that has been that disenchanted community law number is in rest asia as well as in other parts of asia. seriously concern that do this kind of duty let the grossly unfair action can be taken against the law, or did it already has been a trailer or against any other kind of let's not miss the elephant in the room as well. and then, and again, it's ayesha countries. ok, and you can already see that the chinese via a oil india has substantiated by the russians on the be despite the

sanctions. i am, i would like you to build up already building a broken please that have been unfairly docketed by the american only on our own drop it by then just like you look for other options. now i don't know if you would agree with them, but i think that americans tend to view these defines of that universal policy as an ideological move they like to portrayed as a sort of a battle existential battle between democracy and a talk crises. but from what you're saying in the countries and doing that, not out of any ideological or recent, per se, but there is simply pursuing commonsensical, if not survivalist interest to understand you correctly, that it's not so much an act of defying the americans as simply, you know, following your own path and doing what's, what's good for you without necessarily trying to steal something from others. in order to speak to the american policymakers in washington,

dc dismissal or a davian was a democratic daddy's no conviction whatsoever. nobody in the world believes in it. for the americans, are you with us, or are you against us? that is that legal? it doesn't matter. you will remember that in there by the americans have been the strongest supporters of apartheid south africa authority of the, of the gibs in latin america in africa, or on a davie of the gm's in india. so i am not impressed with this, and it is a, it is wendy of considerable figurative description. what we are looking for. definitely, as you know, neither china nor russia, nor indiana, or iraq, or anyone by decide, gilbert op ivy over new or what we have been agitating over the last 20 years or so. is that you're looking at a deep order that told me or yes,

simply saying you didn't order american culture, or we have seen a large number of countries. i be much don't know where states they have their own invest and but are all good. they've been priorities they want to lee deemed the option all deacon dan, or, or an honesty, joe, their specific issue that you will see in the context of the bought in ukraine. hardly any country had supported the american agenda of democracy. was it or, or did you have either or works to that effect? because the word believe beyond a bipolar where we have our right. take our own decision in the guy who matters go best of these, not having to. okay, well, ambassador, we have the right an obligation right now to take a little break, but we will get back in just a few moments speaking. ah

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welcome back to all the parts, but tell me so much in this form ambassador to saudi arabia, ambassador, before the break, we were talking about how various countries finally have the result and perhaps the necessity to proceed on national interest in the concept of multiple a world, not necessarily ideological defiance to the united states, but simply out of our own interest. and i heard you say before that the u. s. is answer to that changing world order has been a new cold war of each. i have to say in ukraine, turned into a hot or do you think that will help the americans to hold on to those so called leadership and i'm not asking for a moral judgment here. do you think that's a good strategic decision to pursue confrontation with russia as a way of sort of holding on to that? and then the benefits that they have been sustaining is mr.

brewer western word order. and did you wish you would that world order is now damn bit or you are seeing in ukraine is the last attempt desperate attempt by the americans and a fuel west of allies that they have on. definitely try to leap in that order is a lot eaten order that has no relation with the word as g. i want to make no point in to see number one. doing that short be the at the americans with the shoulders will pop out in the word, look at the extraordinary violence and damage that they inflicted. they're all, we are cody looking at 20 years after the euro or be, or should move that pretty decently. the damage that the americans did in

a kind of stuff. we are bored officially, that ha, 1000000 people were killed there during the american occupation local countries in afghanistan and iraq. my dad is that he's and why that is one. the 2nd is deal, there has been a rival other countries. they are not claiming to pop outdated, but they are getting a certain degree of influence. and i'm seeking a needs ones that would recognize these changes. they were to put it very bluntly through their own work order is patsy. and at the barrier, can it be hor, can the broader more deep bowler will be ordered. it can or beats already and look at the shank guy, cooperation organ i vision and breaks and indian ocean re muffled, asian and numerous other and did you none of them, bombing it by best of bowers,

each of them pledging on his own dynamics on the basis of its own logic, i'm going to make one will point and that to that article. and, and is this for the buying being certain west european countries have walked in with the american image. and it is that sustainable gentle warranty has happened, is the mark given digging and wanted of the water ukraine. germany is the army. when 100 rock 1000000000 robots were the word have accepted this in any other federal for consensus or, and 1.2. can you imagine the job becoming subordinate would be a medical agenda in see if i work 10 years. can you imagine remaining subordinate could be american event, but i have just been really bad because of insecurity resolve each other, but not audio audio, not willing to join the western alliance again,

china. so therefore i'm suggesting that want to see as a wind dis or around the americans. i believe that i read blended or cruel in energy for a jay and is not sustainable. can i ask you about that? because this is something that is being discussed in russian circles a lot. namely, what you mentioned, whether we can imagine a re aren't germany or france remain under the american control or the american command for the next 5 to 7 years. but if we look at the nationally elite of those countries, most of them are western educated, that level of expertise or that level of knowledge, even of the basic european history, seems to be very, very limited. what makes you believe that something will happen, and those are great european nations that will provide the kind of leads that will

be more if not more assertive against the americans, but then at least a little bit more independent than minding their own interests. it's a difficult question for me. go on show. without causing french, i have, as a long duke romantic of year of 37 years, i have been bored at the extent of ignorance in western countries, particularly in western europe and united states. with regard to the history culture and are dynamics, the political dynamics of countries in africa, asia, and latin america, even many of their so cornish burch b are so inward looking. they are full, quote unquote, nationalistic than defeat, machine, than the essentials requirement. offer diplomacy as well as off oh, off objective commentary is that you must know where you're in the look that is coming. you must know what is educating him or her. do much more what out of their

priority than it you are. so can you read your only your own priority, you and you have convinced yourself, particularly the american how can read them. so that then, and then you need me well in the what that if war or the american believe that both american believe that but all of us moy nija and africa and latin america that he just completely bored. so yes, we have a problem. knowledge ok, or something that you can go where people are inward looking and you have smalley leads who are looking only at their own in the band, with water and water and water more. what about their future? and therefore, yes, that is a certain w, lynn said uncertainty in the these in that order. and that just won't be

a living living call that they're living through june of uncertainty. i want to ask you a specific question about energy and not so much energy, but rather saudi arabia and utilize your enormous expertise in that area. isn't it even more striking that china's recent success, the, the saudis intention to and resolved to go die own way? because for many years, the saudis position themselves as a staunch american al. and yet, if we actually look at the recent statements and our recent moves, for example, die commitment to the a pack a class deal. that refusal to sell oil to countries that introduce price caps on the oil, including a, you know, that's the measure that it was by there, by the west. you know, it seems that die foreign policy is far more independent and far more actually inward looking at any of the countries that you

know, surround the west at this point of time. absolutely. right. you know, a wrench in a part of the word game as a surprise to west and commentators because did all follow in their logic. he's got us on price plus b livia. i have watch saudi arabia. you board, we'll with get off. i. yes, there toward them says run medical. they had a small little glitch in of, of our print, be 1000000 plus $10000000.00 foreign men. they did not have a very strong military tradition. they bought the american weapons but had no intention of using. and you started seeing that change did empty engage regarding donald trump's presidency assay. larry and in the disenchantment in west asia with regard would be americans being seen security pro white obama had started the office or live the some of the rules remark be,

were glenitia. it was one of them was your tick remarks i had heard because if you are able to confront china, you don't need to go glitch. i made. you need to go to lead time. i can't even go to the south. china b 2 be were blue. is that the red the on? but what did asians bendy that they're abandoned? that was the beginning. the 2nd will the nuclear agreement with the iranians at a time when the legion was agitated. i've already iranian concerns or need to agree law. you order obama negotiated nuclear agreements without consulting any of them. the term warranty period or bonner trump, when they want us to angle between the us. any of our sanctions on be iranian. and that, that she had that on the oil facility, all of deeds. and in the i most role was the economy, this american burg drawer from afghanistan, from goblin beach,

me soul. and between to reminded us of how they had backed and blood from vietnam ordered years ago, the same back then of abandoning your allied backing up in a hurry and then the running of it as far as you get the region that then the lesson city bit and didn't realize that now a new world order has come, we cannot depend on be americans, as security provided, all got it. we need to look at them are looking for security, provided the legion itself has come off each. so there's no reason to be surprised . any pupils are pride, our goal, washington, dc. unfortunately, i pad isn't, but there's no reason we have been watching this happen for such a long time. the sense of betrayal and the thing about that. and maybe there's also very inspiring message in a little dot. first of all, the fact that it's not only in americans, but any other country in the world that has a sense of its own manifest destiny and the right to proceed on its own terms and

in friendly relationship with others. and the 2nd good news is that credibility is not something that comes as a birthright. you actually have to earn it. you actually have to treat others as you yourself want to be treated. and i think that's the basis of all major philosophical and religious schools. madam, when you speak of manifest destiny, it reminds us of the great horror of colonialism and impeded being carried the white man's good look at the marsh murder general side. because in the name of civilization, the white being out of the entire red indian community, the american indian community, then be quite beaten, the institutionalization of slavery, bobby nation. a lot of almost all of the shame africa, the breeder occupation during colonialism and people should be like a,

that is not it, but an absolute nonsense. and we should not remember office has exceeded the it to the matter. it grows is our worst question. when you speak all dessie realizing mission, we were say, we live 5000 years before any of them. chauncey realisation, therefore in asia, africa, particularly angry or when we hear of these people as it is article about his arms and and lightfoot, orland light of a speaker, does he realizing mission miss abbey? yes. mortal density realizing mission has meant mass murder. absolutely. and, you know, i once interviewed former kasanya prime minister in brown holland, and she said that, you know, one of the worst vestiges of colonialism is that nations start to believe that colonial narrative themselves. and i think in a sense, what we've been discussing today's, that many of those countries of finally ready to read themselves from all those narratives. and you recognize that there's something inherently good and valuable

and charitable in that old history and own national path. and indeed, in that old manifest destiny, because you know, all the nations in the world have something special, something unique to offer. if the international environment supports that, unfortunately we have to end up here. i'm, as i said, the great the honor than greatly inspired by this conversation. thank you very much . it's a great pleasure for me and thank you for watching hope this. you're again next week on worlds apart. ah, with me for

a government has been killing his own people and on boss ideas. it's amazing that vision not being covered in western media. it hasn't been covered for the last 8 years. i'm here for 5 minutes and then i'm told the 1st 5 people they found it was 5 decapitated head winding up in a quarterly equest demand. the boy asked that it can use me no fight, but to say it is on your father law. today, with the information will almost all the independent journalists pointed out, nato and the u. s. were directly responsible for initiating the military conflict in ukraine, all casualties of it as long as we want the war to continue. we will fight that war using ukrainians as proxies and we will fight it to the last ukrainian death. that's what's happened in boss this whole time. this is,

these aren't objects, these are people that and so that's why i do what i do. that's why i'm here with you can do it and they can do that as americans place their tactical nuclear weapons. well, there was territory and trained crews and pilots to use them if necessary. we have decided to do the same without violation. a lot of mere opponent out says russia will deploy tactical nuclear weapons to bela roost. he says, muffle were retained control of the arms with the central american nation of all new routes, establishes, ties with china after breaking off decades long relations with taiwan. and the west is fully aware of the negative consequences that depleted uranium ammunition causes to human out. and the.