i was very powerful when someone finally came along with no fear, no judgement, you heard my story, did nothing too challenging with mm ah, hello and welcome to well support. with the warning ukraine still dominating the international headlines, the 20th anniversary of the years. invasion of iraq has come and passed barely noticed, although the consequences of that decision, phil have a major influence on both the country and the region to dig it on. what's the state

of iraqi fried them? well, to discuss that i'm now joined by mohammed a son visiting senior research fellow at kings college london professor sounded great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you so much. thank you. 20 years is the long enough time to have a perspective and then have it tested by reality. 5 and i wanna start with a personal question when you compare your hopes, your expectations for iraq, 20 years ago. and now, is there any difference? first of all, thank you again. really, i was one of the people who are among iraqis position before the war. i knew and expecting that the collapse of regime the f of so them a says in iraq is going to brand new hawk new dream. iraq is going to me like

japan, south korea already lob country after the invasion. but unfortunately, after 20 years. so often we are backdated, so nom, up most of our dreams came true, and the country has been through hell by i think by america mismanagement and iraqi themselves mismanagement as well. iraq from 1927 until 2003. the turn over of rack from oil, it was roughly about $283.00 trillion dollar. they managed to crate. great country nicer. the grape roads and everything from 2003 until november 2022. it's 1800. 15 trillion dollar. imagine which is 5 times 10 o girls, iraq compelling to live long term. and if you can,

can iraq today. nothing has been done. new schools never been build new hospitals that have been built new hi was never been built. no, what's been created before. it's been collapse again. this is not an excuse for the old regime, no matter because i think all what was go. it was the act of jimmy cell. so them sent himself a very all right to kill his people. he gave the country a tours and he was not a good listener. neither friend nor to staples, or he was behind with american, behind the war, an invasion and the lead was new, middle east. we came out with a fragmented middle east, a couple of countries been totally distracted and destroy it. a don't forget me. and if i, if i may stop you here, because when you were talking about your hopes and sort of comparing your sounds

respectively to south korea or japan. i remember when i was a correspondent on the ground in libya when they are spring, which is beginning. i was talking to people on the ground and they were also saying that, look at the, you know, our country. we could have a lead lighting to buy that. you know, we are so poor right now and i asked them, but why i only looking into by look at him. and i mean like, this is also a possibility and nobody to believe that that time. so it may be an irrational question, but i wonder whether the main cause of such a disappointment that i pick up in your voice is other than the mismanagement. but simply, you know, these great illusion around the disillusion that you can somehow make a miracle happen that, that somebody will come and do something for you and all of a sudden life trying a different way. and then you good for me hastily there is no good for

peace. i'm always very slow full diplomacy. but i think by american invasion or american mismanagement seriously, the cultural off regina before because they have no position regime what they was doing down, they came up with la position and saw that also them bunch of people are coming from outside with on dream. some of them they went all the way what was going on is our direct seriously. and american gave them the chance. they were the re main reason of this rational, the whole country, after 20 years. luke, in for me all, think my conclusion on that because i think american the wind about and they lost the war. totally lost because they think they're searching for the mass destruction given of mazda. sure. there's some big lie. they miss did the people even in u k,

and they missed a live international coming, and the 2nd they set up, you're coming for the say creating univer, chris and iraq soonest today. and they have with government. but in reality, down on the fragmentation of the country, so you, you cannot imagine it came to the way that the iraq today. you have no iraqis, you have curse, you have shear, you have soon as you have killed the answer documents. in conclusion, that is non national sentiment. ok, those are very have a shift that's unpacked on one by one. then before we did that, i want to ask you a question about saddam hussein in person. because i know you always been in a position to him, and yet i heard you call him both on and dictator and, and build their elimination at the same time. could these 2 are roles be compatible through myers? just interviewed a lot of figures or boss part is some iraq doing so them comparing to look them you

are the best of the worst. it was better than others. but the way you need the country, he killed roughly about 182000 curves, 0 call company. he killed roughly about 10000 failure, chosen on 279-8000 words on his i, myself, was investigator by my hands. i picked up roughly about 600 therapy buddies for a massive grapes over chris from the cell. there is no his station thus of them. so was the real dictate of but he was a state builder. it was a managed, pretty man, his mistake. i think he was because he did the caf report party to his sydney to his try to his phone and then the structures began all over the country from his family. he killed his son in law. he wanted his son, he killed all his cousins. all members were both parties. this is all signs of his

management. but at the same time, really he built some good universities. all some good highways handle some good home, some good, some good hospitals in iraq, high standard to us getting the better things for the country. this is where i have to be very objective, although in born i so position them. but i'm very objective analysis. now psychology of power i thing is still in the area under explorer subject and using the centers on the personality of a leader rather than illusions, or disillusions or pathologies of the collective to one extent. and it was sundown who essentially made iraq what it was as opposed to, let's say, the iraqi people turning st down into the kind of leader in that the, or in the of leadership than they expected from him. look in middle east. oh,

it's very easy to create dictators sir, is the an east in general because if you don't have the prosy people, they create a so then i said to be dictator, he himself, i'm telling you i was his victim, but he was better than others. iraqi, the way they were leading gun they were opposing kim, they way, carriage and kim. they were dealing with him. i said god, god is. and this is thought you'd become dictators and other things for the peters . he easy for griff. forget why god created to air 2 eyes and one time for him, he just started his machine. keller was seen, started papers over the country. and really, i can't recall 1917. i started the door. ready then 80 gauge, they had 348 use of forward there on them. they invaded quite, he gave them all the chunks when he was not aligned, international law to national orders. americans were looking for an excuse because

it was that the quote were a swell ration were not empowered to impose older with them. they had, it was just v girls and vetoes into the it was not so powerful. they were imagining for creating new middle east. but what they did in conclusion, they destroyed all what was exists in the middle east and the serious, fragmented, and people i did. mob on the same time for me. it was a bit breast test of the failure of globalization, the system globalization. is it a look? look at what's happened to iraq waiver? i can't believe we can only superpower. the wall is going to be like a jungle and hell. that was what helps nation to wake up our game. chinese that the, oh, to day iraq to more is going to be employ the goal that this week we cannot lead bikes, cowboy, m n, d e. talk

a lot of your articles about saddam's grandiosity and how he became sort of wrapped in his own perception of himself as essentially and god, i wonder if my there was the same syndrome on the same kind of self perception operating on the american side as well that they can actually change the will to their liking, deaf nephew, their mentality, they think they are not super. so superpower. so for your membrane, which is disaster, no way they were behaving with people and mismanagement in imposing democracy. it's not going to work. democracy's culture, something is good for iraq is slow. remember not, not look in. 2 for states, something good for russia is not good for america, for iraq, you cannot be embarrass, thinks, or society society to read, build things by itself. that mentality,

the mentality of the only super power that levy below. and globalization, negative approach a negative cycle for, it fell and became a good listen for others. after that, look what happened, something to envision adam started there on a screen. look at the result of our break, what's been done. every words has been em. most of the catherine, they say they're blessing indicators more than the spring today. what's going on? they have it on an autumn. ok. i hope you're on a gene can get the fact that you're a listen. do something better for people to not give her a chance for others to destroy their country, like what happened to iraq and to syria and g. m a and to leave you. now i, you keep referring to the american mismanagement and what the many people remember

from those early years of the iraq invasion is not only the toppling of the said on section. but for example, all those pictures of the abu ghraib prison guards are competing with each other in the most degrading 4 forms of humiliation. and you know, we know he and he talked about all day and i'm the same crimes and he's been punished very well in a very humiliating way out for his crimes. but nobody was charging the american side. i want to ask you as a former lawyer for both human rights watch and amnesty international, whether that change to your perception of international justice. because, you know, if a great power positioning itself as the, the beacon of democracy and the carrier of everything good in the world, comes to a foreign country and behave in such a manner. you know it's, it's very difficult to expect the anything but no trouble on that. no, no,

just a serious. this is just very just if american lower can impose, there is no pure justice. ok. what look what they are doing somewhere else is not just liquor was there are so many other crimes going on all over the old. no justin and saw direct and what they did in the group after that and the way they were doing. i remember i was a minister in baghdad after 2003. sometimes it was to are risky for me or some worse. i'm a soldier to you. this is 70 sure. this is why i think her all was. there is no right way to be mad country can be managed by military, military can kill them, have control the target. management is not, do you act of military no matter where they're coming from in all over the parcel,

the old one of the main issue, the countries in control and it, i've been appeared that after 2003 until today, by the way, until today we have you cannot have the iraqi government looked at us other anchors . they work at hard to create an iraqi national government. non track. oh, very good it american egg, any wrong bag? they said no. you have to a part of the soonest. parker parker. she asked, broadly of which means that is no i to create iraq is in iraq. and this is normal for a short period of time as a transitional justice, but not as something to continue for 25 years. i am totally against this fragment while on mistakes. and i'm also totally against fragmentation. but unfortunately we have to can very short break right now to create to segments of our discussion. but

we'll be back in just a few moments. ah ah ah ah ah aah! watch and it was a, in a,

a a welcome back to world to part with mohammed x son, senior research fellow at kings college london mistakes on before the break. we were talking about the difficulties of genuine nation building. and this is actually one of the most polarizing agreements in the world today that is at the

root of many conflicts, including the one in ukraine. what makes a successful state what makes an efficient bait? and who should be the judge on how that said operates. i wonder if you have any opinion on that, given your extensive experience, both in the west and the in iraq, a state can be bill based on the debt identity of citizenship. right? if you're going to have social justice not to have real and national identity for, you can treat a good governess. people will search for dis, net different different identities and different hots to cover themselves with some of them and religion. some of them under sectarian, some of them under mission, all of these, some of them under cover colors, some of the, some of them they have like,

why and do you schemes. you are going to search for different us, different hearts each is going to lead fragmentation and classification of the society and the society which has been built classified based on religion and state . and there's naulty and colors is going to lead to concentration is not good governess. this is why based on i have a book about that by the way, nation building and could then after 9 to 91, how iraqi then managed to create a nation out of a bunch of tribes. they were a bunch of tribes they collected together. if you look at the history of it, but in iraq bist 3 way back, they started to re discover themselves under 1450 years to discover for the trucks. because i'm freaking travel terms traveler to. if you look at direct people, they just been trying to fight with tribes because it is no,

it could just be based on the law. newness of them or sentiment was impossible for the tribes even to use the name of the time. but now if you are not a member of type, you cannot be protected because there is no rule proper rule. all these things as an excuse of invasion. now i heard you say that people would much rather well. it's for a representative, a corrupt representative of that of that try and rather than, let's say, an experienced a stranger. and to some extent, it's actually pretty natural. i mean, that's the easiest way for people to ensure their self interest in the circumstances of insecurity. i mean, i agree with you that it's a natural consequence of destabilizing and violence exported from the broad. what do you think it will take, or how long do you think it will take to build that national identity?

that and not just the abstract, the rhetoric, but actually a felt commitment to the prosperity of your nation, of your land rather than you know, your individual or client interest. it'll take time physical unit, good governors and 2nd unit, good economy. without economic factor, seriously, people when they get who they are thinking, go silly ideas, silly huts. but if you are well being economy glee, you have social justice, you have good role over government. iraq is moving by the way, i'm very optimistic. i'm positive, i'm on the current government in that now, the guy who's really his week, his best, because he want to keep distance from america, from your on an attempt on bug inside. or you don't have strong backup. he's fine thinking a couple of nation building, economic building, dealing with the heritage of the past. because so for the good thinks about

invasion by the way, we have a peaceful transmission of power. so find the right to have a government 6 government. not like from 1963 of your 20011 part the one government. the simply give us an ugly basis. now we have more ugly faces, but they can't be changed between time to time. ok, but if them to work together not building a nation will not keeping distance from everybody regional power and sober power. surely many american, big on the look, i'm not i'm, i want to have all of these to have relation together. bah, bah, my true relations respect. to probations, don't impose your ideas and your culture on me. then i can, i can do my business because we can leave together. we can co break together, although we need each others of the way. well not, but not in

a way that you can impose mary car told me as a ship, as a follower, we discussed this form of magical thinking that they, you know, somebody can come from downsides essentially disseminate the culture with the values or that political procedures and expand that everything will change overnight. now if i'm hearing you correctly, this is no longer part of the discourse. but do you feel any confidence in the part of the iraqis, iraqi leads and iraqi people that they can actually do something about their own country themselves rather than waiting or expecting than neighbors or international community to come in with advise and funds look after 20 years seriously, because iraqis, they, they use, oh, they're kind of old assets, old assets, all the figures were coming, go root, old, the religious us, it all the national as look today, you know, like she has before soon. these are like soon as before,

even curts curve. they were the most the stronger part they were of the. ready war on the strongest bays because they look great. this is much more to one today than divided among each others. this is why on page is that correct? after she uprisings, no, iraq is thought to say to the old generation, people who are coming with american and older than the stop we cannot read or gone through anymore. an excellent example, an approved for that, only 20 percent of iraqis participate on the last election. the current government is the conclusion of the outcome only of 20 percent. so correct the when you say no to the government reports in the election, which means you have the bays and you can think you can make the change. you are not happy about what's going on if you're thinking on an invasion. if you're on

your in position, you're americans well, and i can ask you about that specific point because it's very politically incorrect and very sensitive. and yet i think we need to think it out loud. i know that you have expressed certain skepticism about elections or at least western style election as, as a formal of western nation building. and it's usually i believe that the only other option to elections is the, the kind of dictatorship that saddam hussein demonstrated. do you see any other forms of bringing the elective to bringing the people into the governance of the country, but in a way that would make them feel engaged? and that would also insulate the fragile governance from all the you know, manipulations, both domestic and foreign really so far until today do have no methods except

election and accept democracy for the people's part suspicion. but you have the 2 key you people to avoid for the right people for the capable people, for the people who can offer good service for you, for example. so for until today, if you are who are no one except curse can was b. if you are, she had no one except she asked can work for you. if you are apps, no one a system you will see if you are took from us. no one can work for you except to come on or the circle money part. it can be a shop for this cure, or they can in cage and manipulate, playing with numbers, but so far and kill no, i think aristo gatos you have no better system except this democracy in election. this, this argument has been contin his since old greece by the word. let me also ask you

a question about a real diplomacy. because a couple of days ago, china made headlines for bringing the saudis and the iranians not only to the negotiating table, but actually signing actual agreements and talking about the prospects of economic corporation in these 2 flows. indeed, i succeed in daring and rivalry, dissing it, couldn't them bring anything positive, any inspiration to rack, or perhaps even any practical benefits to country beth recuperated together. if they stop for i think each other's on iraq is stage rarely iraqi state to be number one, all the people who get benefit an advantage over the good sized for this agreement . this is the 1st time in history. so the, any on both of them agree thursday is hama on wise. if you say it's been

wednesday it, anya will say friday if you're on a friday, so say no saturday to more ice from us on both of them agree. which is this is a by the way, this is the outcome of the war in a crate. serious because china started to think differently, a saudi started to think about their interest so, so we cannot follow american, we have to, to think about that. what on trust or, or interest russia emerging again. they wake up from that deep sleep chinese, they wake up, they did sleeves. ok, people their heart example globalization. walt is garrett multi polar. so we have to work together through our interested, i think, would you tell me think, but on things shortly, i'll think russia will syria turkey soon to are now the war did, which is going to be another step for the interest of the region and iraqis,

us wrong, while i missed, i found, i don't think we will get a better point to add our conversation about 20 years of non stop violence than this one. i think there is a lot of an inspiration in countries. we discovering our own agency and recognizing that that security can not be imported from anywhere. so let's leave it here. thank you very much for being with us. thank you so much. thank you. thank you for watching cold to see her again on was a part ah ah ah, ah,

ah a ah. by the middle of the 19th century, practically, the whole of india had been under the rule of the british empire. the colonial authorities had imposed that heavy death bringing the people into poverty and were exporting natural resources. and moreover, these authorities absolutely had no consideration for the traditions of the local population, treating them like 2nd class citizens. the british were showing signs of disrespect even to those who cooperated with them. the fact having.