national headlines and the 20th anniversary of the years invasion of iraq has come and passed barely noticed. although the consequences of that decision still have a major influence on both the country and the region to take it on. what's the state of iraqi 3 them? well, to discuss that i'm now joined by mohammed a son visiting senior research fellow at kings college london professor sounded great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you so much. thank you. when to yours is the long enough time to have a perspective and then have it tested by reality. 5 and i want to start with a personal question when you compare your hopes, your expectations for iraq 20 years ago. and now, is there any difference? first of all, thank you again. really, i was one, all the people who are among iraqis position before the war. and who are expecting

that the collapse of regime both of them says in iraq is going to brand new hawk new dream. iraq is going to me like japan, south korea already law country after the invasion, but unfortunately after 20 years. so now often we are backdated, so nom, up most of our dreams came true, and the country has been through hell by, i think, by america mismanagement and iraqi themselves mismanagement as well. iraq from 1927 until 2003. the turn over of rack from oil, it was about $283.00 on dollar. they managed to crate. great country. nicer. the gray pros and everything from 2003 until

november 2022. it's 1800. 15 trillion dollar. imagine which is 5 times 10 o growth. iraq compelling to lab long term. and if you can, can iraq today. nothing has been done. news never been billed new hospitals that have been built new hi was never been built. know what's been created before it's been collapsed. this is not an excuse for the old regime, no matter because i think all what was go, it was the act of the back or jimmy so. so them sent himself a very all right to kill his people. he gave the country a tours and he was not a good listener, neither friend nor to use peebles or he was behind with america behind the war, an invasion and the lead was new, middle east. we came out with a fragmented middle east,

a couple of countries been totally distracted and destroy it. a don't get me. and if i, if i may stop you here, because when you were talking about your hopes and sort of comparing your sounds respectively to south korea or japan. i remember when i was a correspondent on the ground in libya, when they are spring was beginning. i was talking to people on the ground and they were also saying that, look at the, you know, our country, we could have, i leave lighting to buy. you know, we are so poor right now. and i asked them, but why i only looking at to buy look at him. and i mean like this is also a possibility and nobody to believe that that time. so it may be an irrational question, but i wonder whether the main cause of such a disappointment that i pick up in your voice is other than the mismanagement. but simply, you know, these great illusion around the disillusion that you can somehow make

a miracle happen that, that somebody will come and do something for you and all of a sudden like realtor in a different way. and then you good for me personally. there is no good for peace and always at a lower full diplomacy. but i think by american invasion or american mismanagement seriously, and cultural off regina before because they have no position regime what they was doing, then they came out with la position and saw the country. also them bunch of people are coming from outside with their own dreams. some of them they were and all the way what was going on is our direct seriously. american gave them the chance they were the re, main reason, distraction of the whole country and after 20 years now look in for me all think my conclusion on that because i think am i going to win the battle and they lost the

war. totally lost because they think they're searching for the mass. distraction isn't of my solution. there's a big lie. they miss did the people even in u. k. and they missed the live international coming. and the 2nd, they said that you're coming for democracy, create the universe and iraq, soon as the today we and they have good government, but in reality, down on the fragmentation of the country. so you too, cannot imagine it came as to the way that iraq, today you have the iraqis, you have curse, you have she us, soon as you have killed dr. comments. in conclusion, that is non national sentiment. ok, those are very have a shift that's unpacking on one by one the before we did. and i want to ask you a question about saddam hussein in person, because i know you always been in a position to him and yet i heard you call him both on an dictator and,

and build their elimination at the same time. could these 2 are roles be compatible through my research interviews, a lot of figures or boss corpus in iraq? doing so them or companion to suck them. you are the best of the worst. he was better than others, but the way he knew the country he killed roughly about 182000 and cursed. 0 whole campaign. he killed roughly about 10000 failure, chosen on to 79. a 1000 words on his i myself was instigator by my hands. i'm picked up roughly about 600 therapy buddies for a massive grapes, all the crew from the cell. there is no visit nation, thus of them. it was the real big bug. it was a state builder, it was a managed creative man, his mistake. i think he was because he lived there can be 442, sidney to his tribe, to his phone. and then the search began all over the country from his family. he

killed his son in law. he wanted his son. he killed all his cousins, all members of both parties. this is all signs of his management. but at the same time, really he built some universities, samuel, some good highways handle, some good home, some good. some her road hospitals in iraq, high standards, he was getting, the better things for the country. this is where i have to go objective. although in board of position i am. but i'm very objective analysis. now psychology of power i thing is still in the area under explorer subject and using the center is on the personality of a leader rather than illusions, or disillusions or pathologies of the collective. to what extent on it was sundown, who essentially made iraq when it was as opposed to, let's say,

the iraqi people turning st down into the kind of leader. and that the, or in the kind of edition that they expected from him look in the lease. so it's very easy to create dictators sir, is the an east in general, because if you don't have the prosy people they create to send them a send to me, dictator. he himself, i'm telling you i was his victim, but he was better than others. iraqi, the way they were leading gun they were opposing can there way? karajan kim. they were dealing with him. i said god, god is. and this is thought you'd be cam dictators and other things for the dictators. he easy program. forget why god created to air 2 eyes and one time for him, he just started his machine. calico scene start the day goes over the country and really the country for 1917,

i started the door then 80 gauge. they had 348 you. so 4 were there on them in vegas quite. he gave the old a chance when he was not a blank international lawn international orders. and americans were looking for an excuse because it was that the quote were us will ration were not empowered to impose older with them. they had it was just v girls and vetoes in today. it was not so powerful. they were imagining for creating new middle east, but what they did in conclusion, they destroyed all what was exists in middle east and the syria is fragmented, and people i did. but on the same time for me, it was a bit breast test of the failure of globalization. the system globalization is look, look at what's happened to iraq waiver can 3 become also superpower. the world is going to be like a jungle on the hell. that was what helps nation to wake up our game. chinese

better. oh, today iraq, tomorrow is going to be different part of the world. this week. we cannot bleed by cowboy, m n d e talk a lot of your articles about sometimes grandiosity and how he became sort of wrapped in his own perception of himself as essentially a god. i wonder if man, there was the same syndrome on the same kind of self perception operating on the american side as well, that they can actually change the will to their liking. deaf nephew, them talk the they think they are not sober. so superpower, they think us over human being, which is disaster, no way they were behaving with people, and mismanagement in imposing democracy is thought gay toward democracy's culture. something is good for iraq. is slow. member, not love, love in

a state. something good for russia is not good for america, for iraq. you cannot be embarrassed, thinks, or society society to read, build things by itself. that mentality, the mentality of the only superpower leaving the wall and globalization and it's negative approach a negative side to it fell. and became a good listener for others. after that, look what happened. something to envision adam started there on a screen. look at the result of our break. what's been done. every words has been em, most of the cat through they say they're blessing because there's more than the spring today. what's going on in there on the have it on an autumn. ok. i hope you're on. i sort of gene can't get the fact that you're a, listen. i do something better for people to not give her a chance for others to destroy their country. like what happened to iraq and to

syria and g. m a. and to leave you. now you keep referring to the american mismanagement and what the many people remember from those early years of the iraq invasion is not only the toppling of the said on section. but for example, all those pictures of the abu ghraib prison guards are competing with each other. in the most degrading 4 forms of humiliation. and the, you know, we know he and he talked about all the same crimes and he's been punished mary and well, in a very humiliating way out for his crimes. but nobody was charging the american side. i want to ask you as a former lawyer for both human rights watch and amnesty international, whether that change to your perception of international justice. because, you know, if a great power positioning itself as the,

the beacon of democracy and the carrier of everything good in the world, comes to a foreign country and behave in such a manner. you know, it's, it's very difficult to expect the anything but you know, trouble on that are still just a serious. this is just very just if american under work can impose, there is no, you just ok. what look what they're doing somewhere else. it's not just liquor was there are so many other crimes going on all over the old. no justin. and so direct and what they did in the group after that i'm doing, they were doing. i remember our, some of the stuff like that after 2003. sometimes it was true or risky for me. some worse. i'm a soldier. can you? this is 70 sure. this is why are they all was there is no right way to

be mad. kennedy can be managed by military, military can kill them and control the target management is not, do you act of military no matter where they're coming from in all over the parcel, the old one of the main issue, the countries in control. and it appeared that 2003 until today, by the way, until today we have, you cannot have the iraqi government looked at us other anchors. they work at hard to create an iraqi national government. non threat. oh, very good american. any at all bear you? they said no. you have to a part of cindy's parker parker, she asked body of which means that is no i to create your righteous in iraq. and this is normal for a short period of time as a transitional justice. but not as something to continue for 25 years. i'm totally

again, pregnant. wow mistakes. and i'm also totally against fragmentation. but unfortunately we have to can very short break right now to create 2 segments of our discussion. but we'll be back in just a few moments that you'd ah, canvas made it abundantly clear. we cannot wage a counter offensive without more weapons and ammunition from the west, the west, particularly washington. they show no interest in a negotiated and to the conflict. in the meantime, ukraine become smaller and smaller. ah, ah

ah, well come back to wells, appoint smith, mohammed, son, senior research fellow at kings college london. mistakes on before the break. we were talking about the difficulties of genuine nation building. and this is actually one of the most polarizing agreements in the world today that is at the root of many conflicts, including to one in ukraine. what makes a successful state what makes an official state and who should be the judge or how that state operates. i wonder if you have any opinion on that given your extensive

experience, both in the west and in iraq, a state can be billed based on dollar did i didn't joke citizenship and equal rights? if you're going to have social justice not to have real, a national, i them to the for your 13, a good governors. people will search for dis, net different and different identities and different hots to cover themselves with some of them and religion. some of them understand some of them under nationalities, some of them under cover colors. some of the, some of them they have like why and you schemes, you are going to search for different hearts, different hearts each is going to lead. fragmentation and classification of the society. any society which has been built classified based on religion and state

and mish navea killers, is going to lead to concentration. that is not a good governess. this is why based on i have a book about that by the way. nation building and could then after $9.00 to $91.00, how iraqi then managed to create a nation out of a bunch of tribes. they were a bunch of tribes they collected together. if you look at the history of it, but in iraq, bis 3, we're back. they started to re discover themselves and 1450 years to discover for the trucks because african travel to travel to if you look at direct people, they've been tried to fight with tribes because it is no, it could just based on the law. beauty for them i sent on that was impossible for the tribes even to use the name of the time. but now if you all of the member of type, you cannot be protected because there is no rule proper rule to sit on all these

things as an excuse of invasion. now i heard you say. a that people would much rather well, it's for a representative, a corrupt representative of that of that try. and rather than, let's say, an experienced a stranger. and to some extent, it's actually pretty natural. i mean, that's the easiest way for people to ensure their self interest in the circumstances of insecurity. i mean, i agree with you that it's a natural consequence of destabilizing and violence exported from abroad. what do you think it will take, or how long do you think it will take to build that national identity? that and not just the abstract, the rhetoric, but actually felt commitment to the prosperity of, you know, nation of your land rather than, you know, your individual or client interest. it will take torn physical union,

good governors and 2nd unit, good economy. without economic factor, seriously, people when they get who they are thinking, go silly ideas, silly hearts. but if you are well being economically, you have social justice, you have good role. the government in iraq is moving by the way, i'm very optimistic. i'm positive about the current government in that now the guy who's story is doing his best because he want to keep distance from america from here on an attempt on bug inside. or you don't have strong backup. he's fine thinking a couple of nation building economy building, dealing with the heritage of the past. because so far under good thinks about invasion by the way. we have a peaceful transmission of power. so find the right to have a government 6 government. not like from 1963 of your 20011 part the

one government. the simply give the same basis. now we have more ugly faces, but they can't be changed between time to time. ok, but if they're not going to work together, not building a nation will not keeping distance from everybody regional power and sober power. surely many american, big on the look, i'm not i'm, i want to have all the states to have relation together. bah bah my to relations respect to probations, don't impose your ideas and your culture or me there i can, i can do my business because we can leave together. we can co break together, although we need each others of the way ball not, but not in a way that you can impose me or car, told me as a ship us a full or we discuss this form of magical thinking that they, you know, somebody can come from the outside, essentially, disseminate the culture with values or that political procedures and expand that

everything will change overnight. now if i'm hearing you correctly, this is no longer part of the discourse. but do you feel any confidence in the part of the iraqis, iraqi leads and iraqi people that they can actually do something about their own country themselves. rather than waiting or expecting their neighbors or international community to come in with advise and funds. look after 20 years. seriously, because iraqis, they, they use, oh, they're kind of old, old assets. all the figures were coming. go through it all, the religious us, it all the national as look today, you know, like she has before soon. these are like soon as before, even curts curve. they were the most the stronger part they were of the. ready war on the strongest days because they look great. this is much more to one today than divided among each others. this is why on page is that correct?

after to shoot uprisings, no, iraq is thought to say to the old generation. people are covered with american and older than the elite store. we cannot read or gone through anymore. an excellent example on a proof would that only 20 percent of iraqis participate on the last election. the current government is the conclusion of the outcome only of 20 percent. so correct the when you say no to the government reports in the election, which means you have the bays and you can think you can make the change. you are not happy about what's going wrong if you're thinking on an invasion, if you're on your in position or region, well and can ask you about that specific point because it's very politically incorrect and very sensitive and yet i think we need to think it out loud, i know that you have express certain skepticism about elections or at least western

style election as a, as a form of western nation building. and it's usually believed that the only other option to elections is the, the kind of dictatorship that saddam hussein demonstrated. do you see any other forms of bringing the electron bringing the people into the governance of the country, but in a way that would make them feel engaged? and that would also in fuel aid, the range of governance from all the you know, manipulations, both domestic and foreign early so far until today do have no methods except election and accept democracy for the people's perspiration. but you have the 2 k, you people to avoid for the right people for the capable people,

for the people who can offer good service for you, for example. so for until today, if you are, who are no one except curse can was be if you are she had no one except she asked campbell's for you if you are apps. no one a system you will see if you are took from us. no one can vote for you except to come on, or the circle on the part. it can be a shop for this cure, or they can in cage and manipulate clank with numbers, but so far and still no, i think since aristo plato's you have no better system except this democracy in election. this, this argument has been continuous things. old greece by the word. let me also ask you a question about a real diplomacy. because a couple of days ago, china made headlines for bringing the saudis and the iranians not only to the negotiating table, but actually signing actual agreements and talking about the prospects of economic

corporation in these 2 pose. indeed, i succeed in daring and rivalry, dissing it, couldn't them bring anything positive, any inspiration to rack, or perhaps even any practical benefits to country beth recuperated together. if they stop for i think each other's on iraq is stage rarely iraqi state to be number one, all the 1st people who get benefit an advantage over the good sized for this agreement. this is the 1st time in history. so the, any on both of them agree thursday is hama on. was it so would you say it's been wednesday? it on yellow say friday if you're on your stay friday, so say no saturday to more ice from us on both of them agree. which is this is a, by the way, this is the outcome of the war in a crate. serious because china started to think differently. a saudi started to

think about their interest as well. we cannot follow american, we have to, to think about that. what on dress or, or interest russia emerging again. they wake up from the deep sleep chinese. they wake up a bit sleeves. ok, people their heart example globalization. walt is garrett multi polar. so we have to work together to think we're interested. i think, would you tell me what are things shortly all think russia will put syria turkey soon to another end of the war there, which is going to be another step for the interest of the region and iraqis, us roll while i missed. i found, i don't think we'll get a better point to our conversation about the 20 years of non stop violence than this one. i think there is a lot of an inspiration in countries. we discovering our own agency and recognizing

that they security can not be imported from anywhere. so let's leave it here. thank you very much for being with us. thank you so much. thank you. thank you for watching. pulled to see her again on was a part ah ah ah ah ah, i'm my name is frank, i'm originally from philadelphia. got in the movement in age, 13 or 14. we were violent towards those people because we believed that word is

raised. we were here 1st and this is our country being part of that movement. i got your sense of power. when i felt powerless, i got attention when i felt invisible and accepted when i talked to level life after, hey, is an organization that was founded by for a skinhead neo nazi white supremacist in the u. s. in canada. and they found each other and they knew that they wanted to help other guys get out. there's 2 parts to getting out of a violent extreme. this was the 1st part of disengagement, which is where you leave the social group. and then the next part is d. radicalization where belief systems ology are removed. it was very impactful. when someone finally came along with no fear, no judgement, you heard my story did nothing to challenge with alabama.

ah, ah, economic terrorism, that's what the wrong spot, municipal us sanctions against his country as c a y in moscow for told these flemish republic of iran in its handling of the situation is speed special attention to the opportunities created by the sanctions and made the most of this to further the progress of the country, we believe that the sanctions policy is an effective and wrong and is a terrorist war and peoples. journalists say the american made a power 10 didn't chance gp. let's think 2014 made an uprising and ukraine. a washington had a 100 among others that's installed. contrast to the us now are saying that it doesn't seem to fit in other countries.