the, the sometimes government's commit such agreed as active waste fraud, abuse or illegality that multiple whistleblowers come forward to complain. sometimes those government acts even constitute war crimes or crimes against humanity. we'll talk about one of those cases. one where the facts are clear, but the ending might upset you. i'm john kerry, i'll go and you are watching the whistleblowers. the news. 2 2 2 hello and welcome to the whistleblowers. i'm john carry on to the us military base at guantanamo has been described by some former detainees there as hell on earth. hundreds and hundreds of innocent people scooped up by the u. s. military and the cia and afghan. stan, pakistan, and elsewhere have been held there some times for decades,

despite the fact that the vast majority of them had never committed a crime. we all know that on many occasions, over the past 20 plus years, military and intelligence interrogators have gone too far in confronting prisoners at guantanamo. much of that immoral, unethical and illegal behavior was documented in the senate intelligence committees, torture report. today we're going to speak with a guest who's served at guantanamo for the u. s. military. he witnessed crimes committed against detainees, and then he went public. he risked everything his career, his finances, even his family. but in the end, all these years later, almost nothing has changed. dozens of prisoners are still being held incommunicado at guantanamo. in many cases, they aren't even allowed to access to their own attorneys. and almost none have ever been charged for the crime is the still torturing people at one tunnel. we don't know. the c says the torture program ended years ago and we're just going to

have to take their word for it. i for one will not our guest tonight is joseph hickman. joe hickman spent most of his life in the military 1st as a marine. and then as a soldier in both the army and the national guard, he's deployed on several military operations around the world, sometimes attached to foreign militaries, the recipient of more than 20 commendations and metals. hickman was awarded the army achievement metal and the army commendation metal. while he was stationed at one tunnel, jo, welcome to the show. you're john. thanks for joining us, joe. i want to cut directly to the revelations that you made, joe, the events leading up to it are somewhat typical of national security whistleblowers in that you were just the guy doing his job. and then one night, something terrible happened. it involves the deaths of 3 prisoners, all on the same night at guantanamo. tell us what happened. well then i was due 9

to 6. i was on the sergeant guard sergeant charges watch a different operation. those in camp america give american one time houses. how is the genes? that's the camp where you're at. on this specific champ, in one time though, it was for you. so give america where i witnessed, i was a tower. you know, i wouldn't miss the patty where you call it, where you the great, where the transports back up to care for taken prisoner out of care. more patty, when you drive out of the gate and i watched the tower make a turn like they were meeting the base at that time. i was suspicious, but they came right back and picked up another entity. did the same thing

by this time i was really curious. where were they on friday night? sometimes they were taking the medical hospital or something like that, but this was there. so they came back for a 3rd details. when you did, i went to the post where the entry post to see where the, where the there was actually going goes into camp america, which they had the past one of the road when they were not that ruined the 3rd time, i watched them go about $200.00 yards and then make a left. right? yeah, i'll hear from your at that time i knew it was only about 2 places at the time that led to that led to the beach, where it led to facility that i knew was ca,

mom's. we call it a can't no, no, it's not there. it's right now, so i knew they were getting the teams to church for they were going to for sure. so then later on at night i see the patty right and come back inter, we can go right to the medical the medical clinic inside war. and they backed up and they were unloading something like that. but at that point, they 15 minutes later, all the lights came on and the whole sirens going off was a huge scene. and i went to the medical court. everybody was running to work there and saw the warning signs were happy. she said that he just killed himself. so

why? and i knew right then this did because i had isaac care what i had one irish. no one was the one the only people that think suspicious. the st. james left in the patty wagon backed up to the for so are you right? that true? remember kill was on my watch. father be 3 years because i was not you went to the media to make your revelation because after fully expecting the naval criminal investigative service to interview you, they never did. you saw a general on cnn say something about the events of that evening and you knew that he was lying. there was a cover up saying, here's what happens then your name is out there. i know the military tried to

discredit you. did they come after you then? yeah, 1st what happened is i saw admiral on once here in the same day saying it was a measurable work on the terrorist act and stay me even more. i got home. i was the i g inspector general complaint about it didn't go anywhere at all. so i took it to maturity. i was to the justice and the f. b. i showed up and i just started attorney showed up and they interviewed me for about 3 hours. this is really interesting. my attorney was present and they yes,

if i had any other collaborating witnesses and i did, i had 9 people come one, just stand by another soldiers. wow. you said no one. so they, they, they interviewed all of them and 10 months later they didn't hear. i was, i'm actually in the military 10 months later they didn't hear anything. so my attorney called just partnered and they said their exact words, the just the my story was true was you're not going to charge you. wow, wow. joe, like other national security whistleblowers. you did not back down. you saw this legality take place and you went public and when there was no follow up, you gave a long interview to scott horton in 2010 for harper's bazaar magazine. and then you wrote a book about your experiences called murder at camp delta, a staff sergeant,

pursuit of the truth at guantanamo bay. the military criticize the article harshly, but it won a national book award one of the highest literary prizes in the united states. clearly the military's propaganda against you wasn't working. so what happened next? well, just to back up a little bit. i 1st went to bryan boss. brian ross is very addressing story. and he, he was going to run it. and i said, you have to run this if you're going to do these interviews, you have to write, i'm still in the military. yeah, the pentagon come after you ask them questions about this and don't want nothing supporting. and he said he would. and then one of his, one of the people working for him who you're familiar with buddy's word. so my question is do nothing grand. and then our

last day there was a lot of problems. they met very big problems there and i didn't take a shot were start serious harper, something serious? hearing the story before around story the the justice department asked him not to run story and all what all the way to the top is and the person not the wrong story. and they said sharply criticized. but you still want to rush magazine awarded, and there was no way of you criticize somebody, you show me how does that work? and you know the old saying the truth is the best defense and that you had behind you, joe. you and i went on to write a book together about the i was

a beta case i wrote about the hunt for, i was a beta and his capture and torture. and then you wrote about his further torture and his treatment at guantanamo. i was a beta, we believed at the c. i was the number 3 and i'll kinda he wasn't, but a lot of people, particularly at my former, my former organization that i did not like that book, not even a little bit. but then you went further and wrote an important book about the u. s . military is use of toxic, burn pits in places like kosovo and iraq. what kind of challenges do you now face as a whistleblower who has focused for years on waste fraud abuse and l account and illegalities? specifically in the u. s. military i. i face people loving the job, you came forward to because you came for the whistleblower. you want to use your

position. you love that you want to make things better and that's what you want better. it's not job. whistle blowing is trying to make your organization better. respect to me. that's what it is. yeah. and then for you personally, have things got easier as the years have, have gone by. i know, in my own case, in the sea, i turned its attention 1st to ed snowden and then to julian assange. and they sort of left me alone after a while. what's it been like for you with the military? have they finally moved on, or are you dealing with the fall out from your whistle blowing? no, they, they moved on pretty much alone for now. yeah. and then you continue to write books. have you encountered any further difficulties? no, you know, it's funny about the one i got to mention is the 1st review that come out

amazon still there was by guy named crabtree was out for a half hour just i read this but he wrote a chair. were you how much of a trader i was out here? well, the person i was coming up is dr. crabtree is the public relations officer at one time. oh my god. oh yeah, that says a lot, my goodness. he didn't even have the presence of mind to use a made up name. you can use a name on, on amazon when you do a book review jason vehicle right away or the media circle. but they pretty much like feedback from the verb charging. you know, it was an edge faster. see, all they try to get fired from the john burns as well. so there's always been, you know, that, so they really had

a report that was kind of interesting because they are whose j t. f to mander 1 of january night. and he was telling them how long i was the person i told the reporter i'm not going over here. and they said, but you know, how did you say all this is true? what happy suicide? so when it would take such a big cover all these people, you know, i said, well, you know, not too long ago, professional football, so been killed by treacher side. good point and it took 132 people live on a short way to more 152 people live. it would take much less to cover

this up and such as the church very much you are, you were involved. and they said, well, but you know, everybody's, it's cartoon assisting. how do you know everybody? it's you don't know that you can't make that question. definitely not. well, joe hickman, please stay with us. we're going to take a short break and we're going to come right back with more you are watching the whistleblowers stay tuned. 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah, needs to come to the russian state. little narrative outside as on the north slant scheme div, asking him then i'll send up a coup in the 55

with will ban in the european union, the kremlin media machine, the state on russia today, and split our t spoke neck. even our video agency, roughly all band to on youtube with . mm hm. with

that when it was set up with um, no. do you have to be home with us? no, we do mom of border slash assume the flash. yeah. cuz i thought that would have moved enough. i just wondered with the social love to let you know this globally there called what, what sandwich it is work for that. you're ready to do it all good. was just me bicycle feet long on something more than a few less you would you do by when i would show the wrong one, i'll just don't rule out the thing

becomes the after kid and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves, well, the part we choose to look for common ground. the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry who were speaking with us. military whistleblower joe hickman. joe, good to have you back. as i mentioned, you and i wrote a book together on the capture torture and imprisonment of i was a beta. but you went on to write this highly acclaimed book on the us. military's use of burned pits, drilling down a little bit, what led you to this issue and what kind of reception did you get specifically from the military? once you began documenting the case against the bern, pitts with them again. here's the kid.

my 1st of all came out about the lobby soldiers for reaching out to at that time say, talking great for them one soldier, $11.00 time. oh really thank you. great. so told her story and then you start hacking, just popping away. she's watching your case. i'm sorry, i heard back from you tell me what happened. he told me he said this is a story you should say a couple of days a year. and then i took a couple of their names and a couple of their grades and i read about 1400, it just blew up and all these people were 2nd don, you know. so i decided there was something you know. yeah. tell us

a little bit then about about the health and environmental impact of these burn fit, burn pits. we're talking about bulldozing literally everything into a field, spring it down with diesel fuel and then lighting it on fire and i mean, equipment, medical waste, plastic food, literally anything. and then all of the sudden animal carcasses, right. and then all of the sudden people started getting these rare cancers including brain cancers, and i will add that my, my best friend from high school was, was responsible for the burn pits in for overseen the burn pits the iraq. he came back from iraq and then developed a very rare brain cancer and died at the age of 48. what did you find in this investigation? what did i find this in the future? yes. how did you find? well, i start off basically how, how, where is all the trash?

yeah, so combat soldiers, usually 3 g, 9 pounds and trash a day per person. wow. we had a 100 people over there. we bought these facilities and retail over. and so we had all that garbage from there, you know, in to divert. so we had by you, so tell me your feels 50 tons of trash day, a law firm. a dead 50 times at one point. it's just unbelievable amount. attraction and they're burning everything. but we really got me looking at it was we have the soldiers to the general population, yearian village. and i don't that they were there is a lot of these kids were, comes up. what are the facts that were being born in the world was never seen before, which is the 1st time they receive,

along with people just getting rare brain cancers in the villages well outside chance. and it was truly a disaster and enormous proportions that always took back or in still does today. yes, yes. did the military make any changes related to the policy of using bern, pitts, after the book came out? surely with, with all of the reports of cancer's including these brain cancer's and brain cancer that the son of president biden developed perhaps from the burn pits and then, and then your own research. it seems like something auto we've been done where any policy changes implemented. there has been changes done to help while i did see a standard operating procedure and set up a base and there still stated operation proceed. your student, kids don't understate from large for operational basis. like

along with the, with the 5000 or more bridge it was. so i don't know i yes. if you go to war again, time will tell you or you know, high temperature incinerator trashes evolved over the years. it's not the same thing. styrofoam plastics and and you know, some people say that they were sick. sure. not only, but trashes are much worse and you know, it's as though joe, we learned nothing from, from the use of ne palm or burn pits in vietnam. i mean every, every school child knows you don't burn styrofoam,

and you don't burn plastic and you don't live next to the garbage dump and, and to the incinerator. yet we force our, our soldiers to do exactly those things. it just makes no sense to me. when saddam saying said the fire that was like the for worse environmental disaster, they say in the history the world. but what about these that they ran, they burned return much. what about these birds that we had 273 on the 1st for 10 years. all my god. you know, that puts it in perspective. it does. they, the military does not. they, they, they preach a good environmental programs, you know, practice with the bridge. joe, tell us what your next project is. you become something of a cross between a whistleblower and an investigative journalist. what are you looking at next?

i am looking at i am looking. i'm the 1st one ever told the sexual and how they're being recorded. how fantastic and made one you're pretty, pretty confidential right now, but it's well without, without pressing you too far. it sounds like this is going to be something that is going to be newsworthy, like mainstream media, newsworthy. yes. happy. wow. and i hope you don't get too much push back from the military. oh, you know, we live in that world. yeah, we did. we did. well, i would like to thank our guest today, joseph hickman. not just for joining us, but for his heroism in standing up to wrong doing. and i mean wrong doing at great

personal risk. remember, the arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward justice. those are the words of doctor martin luther king. and thanks to people like joe hickman, we can live those words. thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistleblowers. i'm john kerry. aku, we're going to see you next time the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 for ah, in the year of 1950 for the united states of america engaged in warfare against the people of vietnam, the white house supported the corrupt bobbitt government of southern vietnam. in

1965 americans began their invasion following the aim to defeat the forces of vietnamese patriots. the pentagon was confident that the victory would be on the american side due to its military superiority. however, the vietnamese turned this war into a total hell for the occupants. unable to cope with a guerrillas, the american army started blanket bombing alongside using chemical weapons and napalm which burnt all alive. the village of my lay, where in 1969 american soldiers killed 504 civilians, including 210 children, became a tragic symbol of this war. all in all, during the whole period of this conflict, the usa dropped on vietnam more than $6000000.00 tons of bombs, which is 2 and a half times as much as on germany during the 2nd world war. in 973,

the american army under the pressure of the rebels, withdrew from vietnam. and only 2 years later did the puppet regime in saigon fall . however, the vietnamese paid a high price for their freedom. more than 1000000 vietnamese people became the victims of american aggressors. ah, ah,

my name is frank, i'm a retired from philadelphia. got in the movement in age 13 going on 14. we are violent towards those people because we believe that word is raised. we're here 1st and this is our country being part of that movement. i got your sense of power . when i felt powerless, i got attention when i felt invisible and accepted when i talked to level life after, hey, is an organization that was founded by 4 o skin in the on the white supremacists in the us and canada. and they found each other and they knew that they wanted to help other guys get out. there's 2 parts to getting out of a violent extremist group. the 1st part is disengagement, which is where you leave the social group. and then the next part is d. radicalization where belief systems audiology are removed, it was very impactful when someone finally came along with no fear, no judgement,

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