the can state department seen as the leading, leading on the war on russia through ukraine. dr. melvin goodman with c. i have a decade that is now professor of international relations at john hopkins university and senior fellow at the center of international policy joins me from washington. d c melvin. thank you so much for coming on the show. you don't believe so. i heard a story that the noise stream was blown up by by blank, and i knew a solid archers pieces for the last few years that have been based on very little evidence whatsoever. which is why he has trouble getting published in washington and london. and he had to write his recent piece on some stack. he writes without evidence. he says he has anonymous sources. he says can deal those sources. and the recent piece was typical. it was based on things that didn't happen. a joint press conference that didn't happen a joint statement that wasn't made. lack of media attention to show says, visit. this isn't evidence of anything. when i look at nurturing pipeline,

my 1st question would be, who benefits and who loses? and so i never thought the russians were involved because i was $11000000000.00 investment, and i think they're going to block their own investment, the major gainer and all this was of course, ukraine. because it forces russia to use the pipeline that runs through the ukraine . ok, before we, before we believe that the desire to new york times reports that sy hersh alleges were fed to them by the white test. what do you mean sy? hersh has been a discredited journalist in recent years. did you not read as abu ghraib revelations during the iraq war 20 years ago? if you don't read itself about the chemical i'm talking about, i'm not talking about the older sy hersh. ok. what about the chemical weapons in theory? i know it's what about me like, what about how to grab what about k o w 7 name through he's all is recent pieces of concerns area, right. you know, he was the greatest investigative center time,

the last few years, i think he's been chased, chasing prizes and chasing awards. and therefore, he picks up on beaumont evidently basing on more evidence based on basing on things that he's written about that i know something about, like the destruction of the malaysian airliner by russian forces that were in occupy ukrainian territory. a believe the russian cover up of that. he points to c, i in question, in terms of the north stream there's, there's no evidence whatsoever. and this idea that the cia and the german intelligence service have been tasked to provide a joint statement of alternative theory. that seems very unlikely to me from the way i know the cia works in the way german intelligence works. i mean, i would just be very careful with sy hersh. i know it suits your attitudes about north stream and what happened. but i don't think it's consistent with logic or fact those are my views about anything. does anyone really leave the cia you were there for 2 decades? are you in the cia now?

of course not. when you read my book whistleblower, i testified against a cia director and you need to do a little more homework. no, i understand that, but it goes what you are saying now is exactly what i her. she is arguing that your believing that the new york times during the desired story about the largest atrocity of recent decades, the north stream explosions is from that playbook. that's inside, she lay the sub stack. i was saying this i heard has written an article without any evidence, citing anonymous sources. i happen to know some of sy hersh is sources. they're not people who are really credible. so therefore it, it, you have to bake questions about how credible is sy hersh. and then when you throw in the name of julian assange, you sort of give away your, your own motives and bringing this up at all. why would you have against a sound? julia sanchez, once upon a time was a very important journalist at some point,

joy and assigns, threw himself in with russian propaganda and he took off from there. i think he's being treated terribly, i'm not, i'm not trying to fight you. believe julian sanchez, a rush, an agent to a russian asset of some kind. i think he was doing the russian bidding when i certainly do know. somewhere about 10 years ago, he switched investigating all sorts of stories that dealt with russia and only concentrating on those stories that would be satisfactory from a russian point of view. so he became a propagandist with absolutely denies that as, as you know and says that was it, and i would expect them to deny it. we, the leaks, i know people from weekly, so i have a lot of trouble with joy massage. they're not exactly his supporters. well, i did. that's certainly a news to us because we have the interview. a lot of people from wiki, like so you're again, sy hersh you're against julian. aside, are you for tony lincoln's position on rejecting a ceasefire in ukraine as per the china piece plan for?

well, there's a war in europe. i think i think the united states was wrong to be totally dismissive of the chinese plan. i'd rather call the chinese plan rather than the chinese piece plan, because the chinese are still supporting what the russians have done and occupying ukrainian territory, particularly crimea, the war is not going to interrupt them of it. so you want russia to vacate cry me and let me, let me finish a point actually north stream pipeline. i think you, you exaggerate that melba into that, so put in isn't interested in it should be a wake up call to blank. and in this department of state that the policy is on military power just is not working. and that china was able to steal a mark on us. because the saudis realized after years of negotiating privately with united states, hoping that the united states would weigh in on the saudi relationship with iraq. but realized that u. s. has no access to iran, whereas china does. so china has on long term energy deals with iran,

long term energy deals with saudi arabia. and it goes back to the old chinese saying that they don't care whether mouses, black or, or they don't care whether a cat is black or white as loose as long as it catches mice. well, that's why jan thing feels about ideology hasn't care about the ideologies. of the states the united states puts a lot of emphasis on that. so china stole a real march on us, it's a real global realignment. and i mean important where ways to anybody can bring them in any, any person and a for vela in rio, arguably, or in lagos or in the entire global south, could see that coming. what. how many analysts do they have in the state? no, i don't see it. none of the cia. no one saw it copy. i don't know. you don't believe anyone saw so people didn't know about still a money with a possible piece deal with iran between their own and saudi arabia. people didn't know about,

no one knew that china was about to exercise this rash mug. the saudi iranian talks have been taking place in iraq for the last 2 or 3 years. a lot of people are familiar with that. but no one expected the chinese to come in and pick up all these pieces. so adroitly, how many ages in the c, i a have, and the national security stayed in the united states, that they didn't know that when they could read a, you know, they could watch as he g t, n r t, you press t, v, maybe, ellerby, a they can find it from there. i don't know what the idea china exercising this team is a surprise to the media community. whether the cia gave advanced warning to wash or not. i don't know, my guess is that they didn't. i think this was a genuine surprise and i think you're kidding yourself and thinking that everyone knew this was coming, you expect to sanction the u. s. weapon to be understood will clearly by the national security state of the united states is trying to help russia completely

bypass them and in an easier is talking about not using visa, mastercard and the entire global south. now talking about the dollarization. well, i think the important thing that china is doing this part of the world really deals with the belgian road initiative and where the united states is missed. the boat is in walking away from trans pacific partnership and trying to block the asian infrastructure investment bank. the china setting, so the idea that the united states then they can contain china because it contain the soviet union. the so, you know, was a very weak state. the soviet union was like a 3rd world country that happened to have nuclear weapons. so maybe they contain them, maybe the soviets contain themselves, but you're not going to contain china. and this belief in containment is something that i've been very critical of over the past 2 years of the binding ministration. there's no doubt about that. you can contain a power, a strong and economically powerful as china. and we should give up the ghost

because countries of ozzy on the 10 nations that form the i c on association. and countries generally don't want to be part of a sino american cold war. this is something that the united states that are realized because they're diplomacy will not be effective until they realize that containment can just be done with, with relationship to child. when do you think the idea that nato expansion was a good thing for the united states? came to know why, why does because i know you've written you written about her and anything that ira asked for sure. you've written in 1996, that in 1990 pixel made her nato expansion for 25 years. but as i was trying to get that in 1996, you point to a domestic political situation between bill clinton and bob dole as a, as an idea that perhaps got into the war the we're now in, in ukraine. what can perhaps chart it all the way just explained that that's easy

to explain. bondo was going to be the republican candidate to challenge bill clinton, who was trying to be re elected in 1996 bill. bob dole made it clear he was going to make the absence of nato expansion a campaign issue. and that he was going to be able to use this effectively against clinton, particularly in industrial states like michigan and wisconsin and ohio, where there are large east european communities. clinton, who was a master politician and a master triangular of politics, said, well, take the issue off the table. so he wasn't thinking about international security. he wasn't thinking about foreign policy. he just wanted to prompt all of a campaign issue. so he expand nato. he brought in poland and hungary and the czech republic in slovakia and then george w bush made it worse by bringing in 3 former republics of the soviet union, estonia, lapierre, and lithuania and potent made it clear that any attempt to bring ukraine in

georgia into would be unacceptable, and bush wanted to move in this direction, but fortunately, angle, anglo merkel and some secret phone calls, talk to him back, talked him out of it, but the ukrainians kept talking about becoming members of nato. and this was unacceptable to russia. the national security interest in ukraine, this is quite unique, very different from any other east european or central european state. so what pollutant is doing is waging a war of terrorism and ukraine, but you can say what he's doing is unprovoked because nato expansion was a provocation. the deployment of regional missiles and poland and romania was a provocation. the base we now have in poland is a provocation, sending on a lead airborne division to romania is a provocation. bringing charm german troops into lithuania is a serious profit cation. the way potent is exercised it though is certainly self defeating, and he's going to make russia even more insignificant internationally than it is

now. well, you say terrorism, obviously the russians would deny that melvin gibbon. i'll stop you there. more from the pharmacy. i enlisted now senior fellow at the center of international policy after this break. ah ah, ah, we have this to boom on tenderness in the united states. we've exported it now to the world because the multinational corporations and we've been damaged the belief that babies needs to be nurtured and care for and love and. and so you've got a bunch of trauma ties, people all over the world with post traumatic stress disorder that don't know how to heal. ah,

to what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms. race is often very dramatic, development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult, time time to sit down and talk with welcome back to going on the garden. i'm still here with pharmacy, i am listed now professor of international relations. john hopkins university professor melvin goodman. in ukraine. you say there were lots of provocations. why do you think media in nato nations, whether it be the united states, when european powers routinely says this was an unprovoked aggression why i can't, i don't, i don't use that word so i can't speak to that. the why do you think they say it's unprovoked? is it because the media is couldn't so as

a controlled american monster, though? no, it's the way pohden has fought the war. the use of there are the fact that it is an arrest warrant out from the international criminal court. for man is commissioner for children's rights. i mean, it doesn't matter to him because he's never going to travel outside russia or secure a space in the 1st place. he's much too paranoid to do that. do you think he'd get refuge in the united states would be safer, but i see see war because of course the i c c as a is future united states. the i c. c, is the subject of act in your congress, isn't that if they, if they tend to warrant out for u. s. official, the united states allowed to invade holland. again, i don't know where you're getting your facts. the united states is not a member of the i asked clinton, clinton sign the treaty of rome, which created the i c. c. but the pentagon put out a lot of resistance because they didn't want any of their military members put before an international court. that fact to go back to see more her sy hersh,

that's what he did. his best work is his work on the lie and be it not that was a war crime is work on how to grab in iraq. that was a work. right. you know, i'm just talking about the i see and how obviously the united states is not a member and launched a attack on the i c c saying any i c c judge would be arrested themselves if they ever, dad, one attack a not attacking i. c c, in fact we're privately to the department of justice supporting the case against boon we are. this is the hag act in the u. s. congress, which allows the united states government to invade holland. if the i c. c tries to arrest any u. s. official for war crimes that's, that's an incredible nonstarter does not work. a lot of discussion. united states is not going to invade. nope, it clearly, but it shows a certain type of attitude. arguably. you keep talking about russian terrorism and

so forth. what do you think analysts at the cia and of the state department? how do they, how do they see this war progressing? because, i mean, i mean, presumably they realize russia will win the war because of its overwhelming must already lost, lost the war. i don't know h, my brushing, winning the war. russia cannot accept a defeat in the war, which is less than that these acts of terror. but if you talk about battle field performance, if you talk about the retreat from key retreat from archy, there she from her son, they've lost on the battlefield. that's why they resorted to terrorism. what happens to what happens to a nuclear date? what happens to a nuclear state? you teach international relations? it turn okens. what happens to a nucleus state when it says defeat? if one went along with that, which of course is rejected by most of humanity, the idea that russia is losing all happen to be to stay with me as insinuated that a nuclear state will not accept defeat and

a conventional war. and that will lead to the use of nuclear wear size and ours and has lost is mine and wants to bring down the whole temple that he might use nuclear weapons. i don't think that his state of mind is that perilous, but the reason why i want the war to and the reason why i want to cease fire, the reason why i want an artist, even though you might not get a p c, you want to see if i read or so blank is wrong to say keep the war going on. i don't know. blanket wants to war to go on. he said no to the seas for her. no, we didn't say no to the sea. yes. he said there must not be a c. i said no to the chinese plan, which is not genuine in terms of its commitment to peace is a pro russian kind of plan. i would have accepted it on the basis of a starting point to find out what their fallback position is. even i think she is in a difficult state. he obviously does not want to supply arms her to russia and he's

obviously under some pressure to do so. but it was very interesting that what came out of the she's in pain. vladimir potent joint statement was the view that this alliance saw this relationship between russia and china is not named and not aimed at any 3rd or wait a minute is paying for the war. time is buying the oil and the europeans are buying the oil to every bullet is that you can trace it's ancestry, do chinese money in terms of the energy and jewel use of weaponry is being supplied from china, recorded the u. s. institutions. there is a, not the serious offensive weapons of the united states target is russia need to, from a china, in terms of weaponry, russian, eastern china, they, they need artillery shells and they need modern armor. they need a drones that are more than intelligence collectors. there's a lot they need from china, china,

in terms of scientific and technological success in the last few years can run circles around russia. russia is now a jewel. i think once you start, once your starting point is that russia is losing the war. going to sit down very well in rushes, near term future, being a junior partner to china, that's now making inroads and central asia. do you expect zalinski to be protected by the united states? usually u. s. proxies like noriega has ended badly. i think the united states has made it clear that they're going to support lensky. i'll because i doubt anyone's mind about that. so wait till you actually playing. then compare. i wouldn't compares the landscape to an international criminal noriega who's involved in the drug market. so you actually think that the russians will eventually withdraw from crimea, and from don't say that i did. how is this going to resolve itself? i don't see resulting itself very easily. i would, but i would like

a cease fire because a lot of innocent people are being killed. i don't see this to me is like all quiet on the why you want to see why right now? i would favor a cease fire, right. so you're against what tony blinking said. i wish tony blanket would act more like a diplomat unless like a decision maker who is relying on military power. what i find ironic is the leading military figure in the united states is the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. so you have a leading military that you're talking about negotiations and you have the leading diplomat, the secretary of state, who's not talking about negotiations and people are making a lot of money from the weaponry. would you want them to stop sending? i don't know. i've lost count of how many billions, tens of billions, $100000000000.00, who knows, under $50000000000.00 the united states has given us some estimates saying it's more than the afghan war in official figures in just one year sent to ukraine from

the united states. not really, but yes, i just committed to making sure zalinski isn't defeated by russian act of aggression, let alone a russian campaign of terrorism. well, as you know, and as you alluded to before, china's role is, has taken, it's taken, you surprise, taken the institutions in nato, by surprise. do you think the united states is reaction to saudi arabia would be to consider assassinating? mom had been solomon and saudi arabia, of course not. does the cia, i mean, you are at the cia when che guevara was assassinated in bolivia? well, for one thing, assassinations that are conducted by the cia, the ones in the past, in 5 or 6 have all been ordered by the white house. the cia doesn't have its own assassination policy. anyone who thinks that is very naive or just doesn't understand how the intelligence community works. you have presidents who give

orders to the cia eisenhower in the case of mama kennedy, in the case of jam, are, these were instructions from the white house that went to the cia. the cia isn't this rogue yellow and out of control. you said that the cia is being militarized. there are policy failures, or disjointed. there are no, i got it. structured, american national security policy is militarized. the cia is become a paramilitary organization. that's true. they're, they're very active internationally, but, but the united states is built a global position based on having facilities around the world. china doesn't have this. russia doesn't have this. we've relied too much on military power. there's no doubt about that. and in most cases it's, it's failed. vietnam was a failure, iraq was a failure. afghanistan, we can see that many people say that that's why the u. s. empire is dying, but how will the united states react to the end of a petro dollar?

to to why the d dollarization of energy resources specifically for lisa? i don't, i don't see that happening in the near term. i think the dollar is still the international currency, and she's in pain realizes that and that's one of the limitations on taking these $300000000000.00 that the united states is frozen, the russian assets and actually applying them to rehabilitation of ukraine. and some people are starting to call for, we don't know what the international consequences of that would be. and what would the point of that be if then russia just blew them up using their hypersonic missiles? i don't see how if i show thanks. it helps itself by blowing up infrastructure facilities and civilian facilities and hospitals and maternity hospital, they denied they didn't. i all of that as you know, well, their denials and mean and you and, you know, thinking person would accept the russian denial on this. you see,

and once you say that, how can there be any kind of george or in church of view. i mean, blinking says no sci fi and your seeing a future of a ukraine, that's part of nato as a, but i've written about this, the churchill said, talk talk is better than john john. that's why i want this war ended as soon as possible. it's serving no, but you have no idea of how it should be ended. well, the only way to start to step a ceasefire and begin negotiations and then see where it leads to. i think there's a possibility that the united states could give some guarantees to russia that need their national security requirements. i think what's missing now is any discussion of what the russians would demand in terms of national security requirements that would lead them to give up their occupation of eastern ukraine. so you believe, and i do believe that the russians will leave crimea. i don't think the russians will be primary and should they leave crimea and the population of crimea to suffer

the same faces, the population of don bass. hey, you know, i don't know whether it's true or not. 70 percent of the population of crimea is probably ethnic russia. and it's interesting to me that when true chef gave premier to ukraine in 1954, they kept all the military facilities. i mean, the naval base never left crimea the headquarters, the black sea fleet never left crimea. and this is true up until all it's still true to this day. so to me is a separate issue. so just, i mean, just finally, just finally so that we get just finally, so we get the parallel. if mexico took texas and started bombing texas and we've hang already, it was odd. it was thought in the eighty's. yeah. have that happen again and outlawed the english language in that spanish must be spoken in texas, and all american literature must be burned and destroyed the rest of the united states. i mean, that's not

a car and there's no parallel. there's no parallel that you can see anywhere. i'll southern island if southern island started. i don't see any parallel to the shelling northern ireland or england wouldn't do anything. terror that is fighting . he's making a huge mistake and he's going to make russia very irrelevant place. and you probably know that in your heart of hearts and why did the ruble? why is the ruble, the strongest currency in the world approval? it's not even an international currency. what are you going to do with your rouble? thank you very much. hi, melva. good rubel. well, i'm good. thank you. i enjoyed this very much. that's it for the show. remember going on the ground will be broadcasting twice a week every saturday monday. so say june, meanwhile, you can even touch my role as social media, if it's not sensitive in your country and had to watch on going underground tv on normal dot com to watch new and old episodes of going underground c writer. ah

ah, some nations may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities in other countries. the united states of america is different. wearable people long to be free. they will find a friend in the united states. ah, with a human being a little bit about it evolved, anybody phasing since only city draw you look at the incentives of each cigarette color revolutions is one among several means to reach the goal of conquering foreign lands and bringing them onto the help of u. s. western economic interest to pop in sadie,

i did that he did to it. i go by the demo next year. during the training coral activate sol, suite best se loaded soft power america. and the final goal of these thing revolutions is to ensure that there are no independent players in the world anymore . ah, with the sellers, they want to do everything in their power to preserve their privileged position in the world pressures deputy ambassador to the united nations telling r t after a friday security council meeting that a western powers have an insatiable drive to maintain their global hegemony. ukraine hunting down on freedom of the press as a new lawyer empowers the state to shut down. any news outlets which are deemed

unacceptable in the program. india's flagship airline insisted will continue flight . so russian as space just wide pressure from certain western part with .