a ukrainian authorities, elimination of the law like spiritual institution like place where, where long sleeve is a beaks tap where a big just action towards elimination or the church as a whole. and the soil is done without any reaction from the national human rights. protecting body is total silence, no support for the ordinary. believe us of the great national church, thanks for the company here in anti international will be back in the top of the i with the liberal in liberalism was again on display this past week with by the 2nd

democracy. some of the problem is most of the world doesn't divide countries into democracy's autocracies. in fact, much of the world views western democracy as an expression of ideological germany. ah, i'm african retired. see and welcome back to going underground broadcasting around the world from dubai in the u. e. it may be the beginning of april, but today we're wondering about straightly recently and that's a good deal with the usa and u. k. just been billions on nuclear submarines to fight a war with its biggest trading partner. china was an early april fool. china says australia is walking further down the path of danger. so how did it come to this?

could it ever benefit australia to fire missiles at the close of business partner and maybe 20 as time, while amid spiraling poverty at home, subsidizing us arms, companies already profiting from the war on russia through ukraine? can it be stopped? joining me from cambra to talk august is a master tony kevin senior foreign policy adviser and australian diplomat for decades. thank you so much. i've asked her for coming on. i think we have a few sound issues. don't know whether that's because a pine gap. i'll get to that in a moment, but just in the past few days, the national center of a social and economic modeling in australia is at 1000000 in just new south wales or in poverty, 100000 more than 2016. and that's on top of other reports. why would australia threaten its biggest trading partner? china with nuclear submarines rushing. thank you for inviting me under the program . very good being here to answer you questions australian. some always relied on great and powerful friends to great and powerful white friends in particular,

britain and the united states. she, we began as a penal colony of britain, 240 years ago. shortly after america declared independence. we've always had great difficulty in not believing about writing council french. i mean, obviously, scott morris would say, is not malign as robert navy. we shouldn't even perhaps focus on him because it's bipartisan is, is often emphasized in washington, as of, i don't know, we, on small stations in connecticut, they're celebrating the, the amount of investment from australia de facto in their military industrial complex. and arguably at the expense of the australian taxpayer. why is it so bipartisan? i mean, they must understand that the united states trade comprises less than 5 percent, 3 and a half percent. and the chinese trade is more than 25 percent. well, australians sentimental a bad that lives there sentimental that big,

big navy ships carrying the british or the american flag, they lack uniforms, uniforms of african, some australia well, most frustrating. and so fortunately, emotional strain in the name of that on affairs, leery of china, you know, old nursery, if he likes to come into play with shot as concern for men too. and so, and unfortunately we've gone down the wrong path. we allowed american advisors to become very prominent in the defense. we got quite a number of american admirals on almost permanent convent to defense. in their influence surveys in the widespread, they managed to persuade morrison to destroy what was a reasonably good deal with the french and the fury of

a president not wrong. i replaced it by very bad deal with america album, a z when he came into office, held onto the advisors and advised laura on this matter. he didn't get rid of him, he should have and now she's coming home to roost. very surprisingly, there isn't maxwell against it. now. it was done by particularly from the prime minister, but also by an extremely bright and capable editor of an independent online journal close. and i would say she's john energy secretary agronomist about a job and he has a carriage or my single handedly a very lively critical device. on this decision, the government tried to basically to complete jumping, the axiomatic in,

to clarity guys. but now this is happening just in recent days. it is a stain on the foreign minister gammons weighing in a in a very effective way, flashing out a criticisms. yeah. pull booking said the worst international decision by an australian government. it's really he was trying to interest introduce construction of calls. australian have supported the invasion of vietnam by the united states on mainstream media. so mainstream media in australia, key thing is referred to in the morning as a chinese spy, is that the state of debate in australia that it doesn't matter of in an easier malaysia, your neighbors are against it. eating is basically some sort of chinese front. that's how i really being discussed in your country. it is pretty childish and pretty personal. i things like that. all they say the p a which

is completely the nation. us americans jobs. ok. yes. but i mean, gary evidence question to pretty important. why is when he said, well, what we are doing is surrendering our sovereignty and surrendering our capacity to texas issues. and i was trying to interest in a, a head. we were simply going to be fact in america. i think myself now go, we're simply going to be sucked in a nice american c a. s. necessary? it's extremely right. well, australia is a kind of new you grain. yes. well, and swayed by the lake that america will stand by the parallels a pretty pretty scary actually in fan is britain always says the date as an

independent nuclear deterrent is by criticism that it's as a technology controlled by washington. what about the non proliferation treaty? i mean, you can state britain in the united states applying weapons grades, enriched uranium to a non nuclear australia. does that mean? i don't know. china, russia can supply weapons grade in rich uranium to iran. what sort of precedence is it set? very bad precedent. obviously, there's also the issue with the nuclear waste from a subway, any plans on how to dispose of the nuclear waste. no classical, she'll be right. i will find a way to muddle through. we have a, we have a history of a central tried it, letting us use the convenient a and we don't see the lunch,

not history interested. there is also that history all vo, uh cou, effectively in your country, in the 19 seventy's, when you did have a leader who opposed u. s. foreign policy, and i wanted to naturalize minds and thought about removing the military bases. the united states military bases, ants and gulf whitland. one said, world war 3 could begin in australia. no one would know it. at the moment, there is no real opposition to all those u. s. bass with northwest k pine gap, nor anger. just a few of them, the cia base therapy supplied from guam. no real talk about it in the australian media is control of australia by the united states. not really we, we've taken refuge in the midst of these quotes, joined facilities, and we have us in the command and control it's not true. we don't.

and in fact, it was the story the night before. we're going to remove literally he had announced his colleagues and decision to ask america the close station here our springs, which played a key role in tranquilizing and controlling the american medical satellite size. and this guy which was involved in the targeting of nuclear michelle against russia. and local 3 in japan as always, been extremely important there continue, but it's gotten worse than that. we actually have permanent rotational di seem rather a william permanent rotational. there are always american visa because i was sitting at an air sealed in northern australia. now, one of the nuclear we got no, we can assume that there are and then it will be around there or something like

2000 to make moraine permanently so it's a bit like the bowling drug started by a labor prime minister. but step by step australians become part of the american war, making the same in asia. and this has nothing to remotely to do. and it's simply about australia becoming completely locked in to the american attempt to contain china. villa generally west ran additional resource, much legal slash inc. i mean anything that actually going to america. but more importantly, we know that we are in the position of an expandable proxy, enough generic amongst us industry know china. china wants to send a signal to america of it to resolve without actually hitting in my land. what's

been a target in australia? well, china sent on august sa, demonstrates a british american australian for the sake of their own geopolitical interests, complete disregard for the concerns of the international community and the walking further further down the bottom. aaron, danger, and i should say, professor jenny hawking who helped the world understand the gulf whitland saga and how he was removed is asking for an apology for the now king charles, because of papers have been released about the british government involvement. that alone, the cia in the overthrow or a replacement of golf. whitland. any idea if you think amongst foreign policy makers, perhaps in nato countries, that as the poverty increases in australia, people will start to ask why 300, why hundreds of billions. we don't know how many billions is going to be spent on buying american and british nuclear submarines to perhaps attack china while people at home are hungry. that discussion strategy,

national strain is really shut out of mind the, the social tensions and beginning to appear in australia. and still this assumption, if you like, comply some prosperity, australian, meaning that somehow or other we're in the most people i'm prepared for example to believe that sky rocketing energy prices a strain industry, let alone trade in household budget might have anything to do with energy crisis. right, when you think that far away and somebody else's problem, it's actually very much directly connected to the increase in which can actually be sure about styles w that more from australian senior diplomat attorney kevin, after this break in

oh, well, she's nice munoz cards and like if you speak russian, keep your voice down while out and about a couple. don't put your human symbols on display a little stacy schneider. all right, so you guys don't talk to strangers. i avoid noisy gatherings and rallies with russia. eaten your colleagues and perhaps also your friends think you're guilty

because you'll russian a by mutual be i wasn't sure if i need specific solution with ah, welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with former australian government advisor and ambassadors, poland, and cambodia. tony kevin, you're talking about energy prices. well, i mean, the fact that the americans can threaten australian politicians if they don't fulfill their obligations to as vassal state status as it were. what they could threaten attacked like nord stream. i mean, you think that's i,

her shoes, people can watch our interview with him. recently off he wrote on a sub stack about the eco terrorists act by dr. joe biden. you believe joe biden ordered that attack on the north stream? absolutely. so whenever it was said, it's more interested in american trend into the american enemy, somebody some of the time we have this belief that america could do such things when, when we went out, when they saw the image of the american going to draw away, we don't really understand their acres dying for the social and logical and economic stresses of the moment or which will continue some very, very painful adjustment and education. when we want to stay in america's corner, mom as possible,

i'm talking about the general thinking. it's not a very critical i were in a regular rush really, but it was all this trade is going on with jain or a lot of people talking about the dollarization. could that be the, the move in australian political circles as they realize that they're having to do more and more drained in chinese currency rather than us dollars? is that, is that the factor? i think for most people that really say nicole as long as we can, you know, shelly, quantitative is mineral and, and cultural products. it's, i know, i think there's an assumption found around that. it's a very, very complacent country. i don't think it's a country that fails under a threat for china. not yet anyway. and i think china times are many puzzling to know how to deal with it because of a luxury when,

when they are biggest, biggest economic. why is why we got about to antagonizing as we have been doing? yes. do you think the orchestra will really actually happen given it so long term people doing 2030 is time. and people often, even in the united states, think banks funded by the pentagon saying the world to look very different in 20 to 30 years time. if already g d, b by purchasing power parity is led by china and china will be the supervisor. and perhaps there will be less bond buying in the united states and the dollar will be less used around the global south and shanghai corporation organization. countries . that load breaks the, the august the part of the august. it involves the building of, of nuclear submarines. a crew is a very long way off and that may never happen. i think what will happen rather more

quickly is that they see that american nuclear submarines in australia with maybe some token training programs with australian sailors going on board. the christians, i forced to learn which way the toilets on, on that kind of thing. and, but it won't be serious, effectively american basing then there maybe in person, maybe in down and immediately of course, making those cities higher on the list of targets and they would otherwise be. so that kind of that could happen question. and of course, the flow money from australian to american, a builder at the of the american sum range, visiting his name while that could happen was even though poverty is increasing in australia, back it back at home. i mean, as regards the ukraine, how is it being reported in australia,

standard vessel state terms of russia suddenly unprovoked decided to invade the largest country in europe. and politically, shannon stay narrative happened a little bit by the memory of a minor over the war. so in an extra new crime, in the 1st year of that was the russians we had on this program. one of the people supporting us policy said, well, the improved western nation business. and i believe, i believe that's intended to cast blame on the rush, which is a very good at math martin. i intended to rush around the bush unless it wasn't a rush unless it was here in michigan. a marion post

a minute to put a new training in which i had instructed hundreds of local people to sheltering basement with the full intention of blowing up the theatre over them, killing them in the basement. the training regime regime is ruthless with the lives of inch of its russian speaking citizens, because like i forgot that was really right to mention was, you know, so then he clearly denies that. and all those journalists who declared victory in libby or in iraq, etc. and their progeny in that circle, mainstream media in nature, countries reject all of that. they say it's all russia's fault. good china, preemptively. i mean, some people in the communist body of joiner attack because she's in being in previous leaders for now acting sooner against the necklace of basis that surround china today. act preemptive,

could they act preemptively against australia and try other means to stop in 20 is time the threat of nuclear missiles being stationed, more permanent being more efficiently in australia that a targeting beijing or shanghai. if we were extremely foolish and provocative, yes, make good. but i'm hoping that there would be enough common sense in australia to know the danger signals. if we, you know, we, we, we have never been to such a dangerous ally balcony price or richly very conservative. i'm going to say like todd, as quite a few australian dishes, do write a book called dangerous ally. i'm just saying, i'm interested, australian u. s. and what little in the way that you actually are?

yeah, it's always after they serve in office, they write the books that show us a very different side to what is going on in this alleged vassal state julian assange has been on this program. he's currently going to view in special rapport, who's now left a voice mail so we will see those interviews. res talked about british alleged torture of julian, a sorry, general australian citizen. and perhaps the most famous journalist in the world. what is albany is a doing to get him freed? he says he's personally advocating for him, but no signs of london freeing him from this maximum security prison in bel much no, no, no sign of pressures improvement in julian's condition whatsoever. and we're now compounding this by allowing and australian citizen and foam or american citizen, age and pilots. in the american,

a flush with 20 is to the well, that is quite life in countries whilst wife and children, 6 children tucked into a maximum security prison in a 2 by 4 made a still waiting extradition to america. this is another another case of mental daniel dugan who's, who isn't me as well known. of course as to, you know, such a freshman, he left his american citizenship and, well, i don't the protection of australian citizens. it depends on him. so 20 years later, go down this nightmare is, is, are obviously not as famous a case is julian assange. why do you think the australian government and authorities and secret services and perhaps the cia control is behind it on attacking you, you are seeing the diplomat. you were advising on foreign policy in previous

decades. crucially, and ambassador to poland. back then during the cold war. if you find yourself an attack or is it by a mission, do they just not invite you on television programs to try and keep what you say from the australian public? it has certainly been attempted to make me in person to publicly challenge my voice in australia. it's a long time since i've worked with a retired in 1998. so that's 25 years ago. but no other good on that you worked with share your views and the current ambassadors of diplomatic. i mean, maybe you're not in touch with them. they don't share your worry for the future of australia or if it continues to tie itself to washington. a declining power is considered by many analysts, even within the united states. quite a few do share my concerns, but i tend to compartmentalize i tend to be

a big picture man. most of my colleagues tend to think of america reservation country occasionally. that's the wrong thing. i. i see it the passionate imperial hedge, a monic behavior. and i've also committed a guy with the other side of a russia, which was my country of 1st posting is basically a nation country in an admirable country in many ways that it is one of the latest. well, the other one is jay. so i'm probably why the on the pile, but there are, there are a great many colleagues, colleagues, new ones with citrix will, will share my views. yes. well, if australia camera continues to, to, to lease support, anthony blink and the so called the full mcclinton over obama advisors advising

him on foreign policy. what will happen to countries like indonesia, malaysia, your regional countries? it all seem to be turning as you just said, to the idea that the new century is born in china, russia. these are major powers of this century. amidst the declining economic and geopolitically failing united states of america, well, the countries of the region put their sites in the, the only international order we have, which is the one that was negotiated after world war 2, the united nations and security gas based international the, they they, my russia and china listed 5 see standing by that you and they still, despite incidentally to manifest the ration of so many un agencies by the united states. i mean, organizations like the organization for the prevention of chemical and become

worthless. so many agencies have become corrupted by american power, american bribery, american threats to, to pay us, you know, but if you go back to the central oven of the united nations, the russians who shine is continue to speak resolutely to the, to the asian bank of america. on the other hand is the right that is trying to, to cancel struggles and roads. now, asian countries actually close the good order and good radical, and they can see this. so can african countries break and countries pull, the national straight follows aren't fugly enough to be able to say it. yeah. and to thank you. and that's it for the show. and remember going underground is world gusting twice a week every saturday and monday. so stay tuned. meanwhile,

you can keep in touch wireless social media if it's not sensitive in your country and had to channel going underground tv and rumbled and come to watch new and old episodes off going underground. ah ah, ah ah, what have you done? i bought a statue that exploded the main suspect in a tower attack they took the life of a prominent russian journalist agreed to cooperate with law enforcement accuses you .