the american economy, so there's a boomerang. ah ah, mm hm. i don't welcome to worlds apart. whenever the russian discuss their historical or contemporary relations with turkey. the suggestion of keeping your friends close and your enemies closer, almost invariably makes its way into the discussion. moscow and anchor, haven't you been quite sophisticated in managing both that grievances and mutual interests down this approach? make the world if not the better than at least a slightly safer place. well,

to discuss that now joint roam is stumble by hassan. you know, professor political science and international relations as well to pay university professor, you know, it's a great pleasure, great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. that's my pleasure. thank you. now we live in such a fascinating lea, confusing world where you have, suppose it allies that are pretty open and stubborn about undermining each other's security concerns. and the also how suppose the opponents does seem to treat each other with respect and certain understanding. and i think their russian turkish relationship is corda, intestines of, of dod. do you think this relationship would have been just as vibrant or as sophisticated as it is right now? if it were in for the help of your western allies, the problem was turkey is experiencing or has experienced all the last decades or

so, particularly since standup, the cold war, but also during the cold war may be part of the problem. yes, turkey is posture on, on the russia, in the united states, sometimes change. and then sometimes basically it keeps us closer to rush other closer to the western world. well actually it's, it's been a reliable, been brought to, you know, there was no lines nieto. i mean, since $5952.00, it's been 70 plus years. so there's no question about that. but what it is is, and there are certain times at which turnkey pos, closer to russia in descend this, that photos dennis, and as turkey decided to cultivate good relations to moscow. in 1906, the poll when it was the buff. why do united states by

a very notorious letter coming from the us president, lyndon johnson, which is known as the johnson letter in well, basically it was about cyprus, but the actual it were wide, wide ranging. and then tucker, basically decided to cultivate good, good ties to russia. i know that during the cold war, the decision to cultivate, the relationship with the soviet union was essentially secondary. it was an emotional and perhaps also a strategic reaction to the americans and buffle as their relationships them. now, is it condition now what we have about the turkish russian or approach moved to western world. so decidedly, again, st. louis. and, and the reason again, basically in, in terms of trade in economy is, people get, get along very well. what you're essentially saying is that of elements in that,

i mean new height and basically decided to invade unoccupied. iraq. while i'm going to open and northern front using your territories, and i'm going to basically put my troops on everywhere in your territory and talk. you said, wow, you know, we can't have it like that. and d, turkey played along with that. not only in the rock, but also in theory, which i think surprised many americans, what time was everywhere because it's been quite an experience country in dealing with the west. in general, we had an expert, i mean, how they lived for us this. we know it quite well, but i say, you know, i'm sorry for jumping over in the, interrupting your whole the time. but i think that's a critical question. you know, the united states, you've been dealing with them for decades and decades, and yet for a considerable amount of time on to very recently you played a long you did what they wanted you to do. including, for example, on theory, a one to one theory, a began, or rather when the attack to violently change the regime there began turkey,

played along with that despite the fact that he had very good trade. despite the fact that the best government and they are the government at the time, had a very good relationship. you have extensive water and many security concerns there, but you played according to the american june. why was that? why did you stay with them for so long? despite the fact that they deceived, then ignored their security concerns repeatedly. while that was a big mistake on the part of the incumbent government. and i have been a boss parish, critical, dec it since its inception, while again, even the present incumbent government basically went along with that american policy. but whether it was actually the american so pushed a tax, whether it was quite convenient for the turkish governments. understanding what the middle east, as they were changing turkey's tune towards the region,

and they're coming up with a new policy quite inspired by islamic and all that. and i think they play the role . and i think they told, you know, in the united what the united states is trying to do in syria and what they want to do in the end seem to be overlapping. and that was a big, big, big mistake and ideologically inspired part of policy, basically correct how with turkeys and national interest. and, and that is why it was on that basis that the present government has been and reshaping its policy in every respect. basically just extending and to shake hands with the leaders of the middle east, starting with the saudis. and then with the united arab emirates because improved it's relations to a considerable degree,

which agent also with the stress. and now it wants to basically get back to the normal phase of relations with syria, something i have been very supportable. okay? so calculated that it was in turkish favorites you follow or associate itself with the, with the americans and the larger westbridge, perhaps that made sense. and i think to some extent, turkeys policy at this point of time is to also make the best of both worlds. you are still a member of nato, but you are also championing for the for the new mouth you pull the world now. before we discuss that 2nd aspect, tell me, what are the tactical and strategic benefits of cherokee being a member of made the, given the recent memory, for example of the 2016 cool, which is a pretty shadow we story and the government accused the west of being behind it was the point of turkey being within that alliance, given that the trust it doesn't seem to be there. well, if you're not dead,

for instance, you can't be toast within sweden joining nato. if you're not there, then you can't. you can't prevent south cypress joining nato. if you're not there, you will didn't know what's, what's been going on, that we have all the features that officials working and occupying hire. i said, you know, it's just that you political to more than a defensive lines for you at this point. oh, well, it may shortly. i mean, if you ask the people in the street and no one would ever tell you that if we find ourselves in trouble, if we get a cock, we will get considerable support from nato countries. immediate. unless, unless it is absolutely in their interest to come along and fight for turkey. so that is why we are trying to build our own defense. if we doubt nieto

without expectations, if you like that the nato countries will come to operate immediately. but at the same time, you know, you are, you have one leg in nato. why not? and then at the same time, at the same time, you cultivate good relations to rush up, but also to other countries including china and you know, breaks anybody, you know, tron guy, corporation organization. this, why not? this is the multiple world. do you think they will ever appoint when turkey will have to decide whether it stays within native given that meter, as you said before, in other interviews, it's not the book clock. you know, there's certain military obligations that come with it. do you think they will come a point when turkey will have to make that decision, whether it is within nato, within the multiple or world, whatever it means? well, you cross the river when you get to the breach. so you wouldn't know the circumstances

. i mean, and you have to know to so you have to have the circumstances 1st and then you would have to decide on the basis of the circumstances. but i can't imagine a situation in which turkey would be me being natal auto cross station old out of some anger or out of some good themselves or ought to be a dispute with one or 2 nato members. we have learned how to deal with them. why not? so if they basically are and do something nasty to us, we can do something more nasty to them. but don't forget, i mean it was a mistake to enlarge nato or that much if you bring in more and more there's going to be more and more divisional. busy divisions within nato and humbled de cox like the to call, craig cox, within nato, are going to white. okay, well there's going to be a little crack i between you and me right now because we have to take

a very short break, but we'll be back in just a few moments state you. ah ah ah, children it's seen is, is it until school suffered nightmarish levels of abuse, torture and child rape in the office of the attorney general suppressed thousands of pages of police and evidence that identified the perpetrators in the school. i was electrocuted. twice. i was only 7 years old 1st too high for me, so somebody put me in the chair by the law warriors to run over here. somebody can run in c solution with themselves. some of them are my

own relative, didn't make it jerking themselves to death over too soon. but yeah, what it made me, it made me the person i am today because on it, i don't give up with any investigations. were too often handled differently because the deceased was indigenous. so many of the worst criminals got away. the bishop's got away. the ones we've done most of the damage never got charged. ah

ah welcome back to wells apartment has some, you know, professor of political science and international relations as miles of a university professor. now before the break we were discussing did the so called the alliance a relationship between turkey and many of the western countries. and specifically nato, but it is pretty clear that their russian turkish relationships on those without their problems. and that i think it's, we're saying that our countries have bought more wars between themselves than any other country that russia has had that relationship with. and yet, i'm both leaders, i mean president put in a, as an add on, has been managing to you know, a find

a way and both of the grievances are through mutual interest, especially after that very perilous moment. the juncture point in 2015. i think when the turkish military, it's guided by a different vision of foreign policy. as you pointed out, shut down, the russian fighter jet, killing the pilot, which led to the death of the pilots. now, can i get your broader view on this relationship? why do you think it's been managed the way it's been manage and do you think that's a good model for any other country? while it is certain to be an exemplary relationship basically. and what remains at the center of the relationship is nationally trust it is and, and rational nation and insurance. turkeys nationally. trust our loppy. now for instance, during the cold war we had good relations at for about

a couple of decades or so. and it was all economy, but now, as you pointed out, took in russia and finally realize that they should actually have a consultation mechanism about political matters. now, political relationship and political consultation, i think it's important. so you get together, for instance, we had the other by john armenia, a war in 2020, but it didn't basically tear apart the turkish russian approach month, which is important. so supposedly armenia is backed by russia and as a by johnny beck by turkey. but you know, the 2 countries, the 2 capitals have managed the relationship and their paste and put in, came out several times and said, you know, those territories on which the fighting was going on, belong taught by john. so what do we say about that?

and so they understand each other now and where we stand each other, but i think they understood each other prior to 2015 when they tried to do with the job happened. what was the turning point in the turkish reasoning? because i think the russian policy is that turkey is pretty much the same, but it's, i take it from your writing, but it's the turkish policy with these, i mean both russia and a broader positioning within your asia have changed. well, i think m d, i d o logically a inspire policy was, you know, had to basically put a fight because you can't make any a, you can't make any progress with that policy and they have the light that it was a big mistake. plus as you point to doubtful for us that there was the qu, they were in fighting within the government. and there were, you know,

the sort of problems and all that to a, how shall i say, i'm going out or says, or what we are doing. basically, and then in the end, the turkish state was able to see through the mag, compliance. for instance, in syria. they were trying to divide up syria into 3 parts using iso as an excuse and was stuck in the touch state. that black establishment lies that then you have a turning point in all that there was disappoint those with the american government that was disappointed with others. but in the end, the real and bases of national interests of russia and turkey brought the 2 countries on the same truck not that we had today. and, and i think there are also fundamental under mentally important dimensions to the

relationship. why is that truck it doesn't proceed? russia as a whole, as it used to during the cold war that you do, the cold war was a different period. and, and now the 2 countries are even cooperating on military military matters. if we see talk, can russia producing high tech quality weapons in the next few years, or in the next decade or so, i would have to show price. there are still many very, very difficult issues and certain things. the interest of russia and the interest of turkey do not overlap. they in fact, conflict them. yet. one of the aspects of this relationship i think is trust. and president putin has spoken about that. a number of times he said that for example, president on is a manual drives, a very hard bargain. he is a tough negotiator. but once an agreement is reached, reached, it can be trusted,

and this is so would antiquated notion, you know, calling somebody and man of the word. but i think it's important for both leaders. is it take him positively tricky because i know for many of our friends in the west and delivery circles, that would be seen as a, as something somewhat fat offensive to call somebody ma'am. and to say that his words could be trusted. well, it's sometimes comes on the criticism by door position by delay presence as you put it in touch it too. and, but the liberals have lost much better prestige in this country, so they have hardly to be trusted by the me and one the other. and yes, there is a relationship on the basis of leader to leader. but this is, it is important, but it may be, it may seem to be quite fragile to the outside. but what i'm

here arguing for is that what basically has brought turkey and russia on the truck is there, is they interest professor, you know, if that interest, national interest or target understood in the same way by the opposition. we all know about the upcoming elections in turkey. do you expect any sort of continuity of foreign policy, including on the issue of russia, if the opposition comes to power? well, i think our position leader was on record once saying that turkish retained ukraine fide in the war. but you see when you basically get to this government, when you come to power, then it would be a different capital of things. it could be a different kettle of fish. i mean,

what do you mean by taking ukraine site? for instance? does that mean you are going to turn against russia? or does that mean? you know, you may be just empty platitude. you would be just saying in one international conference in, in one international meeting in nate or whatever you, or, of course is the most important question would be, are you going to apply all this functions to russia? if you do, then you are going to be that need, you are going to be very, very, in a very difficult situation. i mean, we have experienced that we, the rock with united states india crisis. the united states basically pushes you into something. and then you expect that you would be basically burst by the united

states and by the collective west for your losses. and then nothing comes along. there's one factor i think that needs to be kept in mind the, the overall landscape geopolitical landscape of the region is changing, as i'm sure you're heard about the chinese brokerage deal between the uranium and the saudis. and many of the experts i have spoken to they have great hopes for not only the syrian resolution, successful theory and resolution, but also the, the solving of the palestinian problem. and you know, the successful conflict resolution in many forms. but there one big question there . if that happens, if those positive trends continue, what it would essentially mean is not only the and of the years dominant, but effectively the lack of the us interference in the region. do you think that americans will allow that to happen, or do you think they may use various events including elections in certain countries to continue stirring the pot?

them continue with di, divide and conquer policy? well, i think what matters here is the feelings of the people. as far as the turkish people are concerned. if you ask, i mean all the polls show that there is enormous degree of grievances against the united states, and it is not only in turkish american relations. for instance, you ask people who is at hold for instance, who is in the wrong, who is in the right in the ukraine crisis. they would say it must be the americans . i case it comes automatically. so that is why the opposition leader basically after that statement once and then stop dec, because you can't go against the pupils wishes. so in that sense, and i'm, i'm, i'm, i'm quite firm in my, in my argument and that is russian turkey structure really

relations will remain on this truck. and whether or not the position is going to win the elections remains to be c. now can i ask you one last question, you wrote that in this new multiple world middle powers like turkey will have a special place. and you also suggested that if the european union doesn't survive, that are european neighbors like france, germany, italy are, have great britain. those countries that used to be great european powers will also have to come up with some sort of self interested. foreign policy isn't up to optimistic. do you think they still have a capacity of conceptualizing self interested policy, let alone executing it? while they the new multiple are it is going to be very interesting to watch a be

a real live long. you know, it's going to be really, really interesting to follow. one is that it is this multiple parity is not going to be western center because there is china, there is draw shot. and there are also powers like super powers or potentially superpowers like india regime. and others, so we're the west and dominated multiple or, or you know, bipolar all unipolar world or did is coming to an end. and the 2nd thing is, for the 1st time, you know, multiple well daughter that are going to be countries like middle powers, like turkey, iran, and quite a number of others. as you mention, perhaps european powers, even if you're repeating union, basically there survives all the pressures of the multiple world daughter.

it is not going to be very closely integrated, union will know that and quite a number of european great powers of the 1900 century early 20th century, i going to remain middle powers within that system. so the americans will do everything to stop that. but as we have seen over the last 12 months or more with the ukraine war day, or not mighty, they can stop it. and this is a, i think this is going to roll on along the was lights pressing. you know, i have to stop you here. thank you very much for that. it's been a fascinating conversation. thank you. it was my pleasure and thank you for watching hope to see her again on worlds apart. ah

with blue ah, ah ah ah. hi, i'm rick sanchez and i'm here to play with you. whatever you do,

you do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that so different my little opinions that you won't get anywhere else. welcome, but please. if you have the state department, the c i a weapon.