other countries including china, you think there will ever went, went more, is going to be more and more de crocs like the to co. craig cox within nato are going to wipe. okay, well, and you and me right now because we have to take a very short break, but we'll be back in just a few moments. they tune ah ah ah

ah welcome back to wells appointment a professor of political science and international relations at multiple university professor here. now, before the break, we were discussing did the so called a alliance relationship between turkey and many of the western countries and specifically nato. but it is pretty clear that their russian turkish relationship are not without their problems. and that, i think it's, we're saying that our countries have more wars between themselves than any other country that russia has had that relationship with. and yet, i'm both leaders,

i mean, president putin and president and on have been managing to you know, find a way of both, no grievances are through mutual interest, especially after that very perilous moment. the juncture point in 2015, i think when the turkish military guided by a different vision of foreign policy, as you pointed out, are down the russian fighter just killing the pilot, which led to the death of the pilot. now, can i get your broader view on this relationship? why do you think i'm, it's been managed the way it's been manage and do you think that's a good model for any other countries? while it is certain to be an exemplary relationship, basically, and what remains, that the central data relationship is nationally trust. it is and, and rational national insurance turkeys nationally trust our loppy. now,

for instance, during the cold war, we had good relations at for about a couple of decades or so. and it was all economic. but now, as you pointed out, took in russia and finally rely, is that they should actually have a consultation mechanism about political matters. now, political relationship and political consultation, i think it's important. so you get together, for instance, we had the other by john armenia, a war in 2020, but it didn't basically tear apart the turkish russian approach month, which is important. so supposedly armenia is backed by russia and as a by johnny beck by turkey. but you know, the 2 countries, the 2 capitals have managed a relationship and there has been put in, came out several times and said, you know,

those territories on which the fighting was going on, belong taught by john. so what do we say about that? and so they understand each other now and where we stand each other, but i think they understood each other prior to 2015 when they tried to do with the job happened. what was the turning point in the turkish reasoning? because i think the russian policy is that turkey is pretty much the same, but it's, i take it from your writing, but it's the turkish policy with these, i mean both russia and a broader positioning within your asia have changed. while i think the idea logically inspired, policy was, you know, had to be basically put aside because you can't make any a, you can't make any progress with that policy. and they have realized that it was a big mistake. plus as you point to doubtful for us, but there was the qu,

they were in fighting within the government. and there were, you know, the sort of problems and all that to a hard, shall i say, i'm going out or says what we are doing basically. and then in the end, the turkish state was able to see through the mag compliance for instance, in syria. they were trying to divide up syria into 3 parts using iso as an excuse. and once again, the touch stated black establishment lies that then you have a turning point in all that. there was disappointed with the american government that was disappointed with others. but in the end, the real and bases of national interest of russia and turkey brought the 2 countries on the same truck not that we had today. and,

and i think there are also fundamental, fundamentally important dimensions to the relationship. one is that it doesn't proceed. russia as a whole, as it used to during the cold war that you do, the cold war was a different period. and, and now the 2 countries are even cooperating on military. you know, military matters. if we see talk, can russia producing high tech quality of weapons in the next few years, or in the next decade or so, i would have to price. there are still many very, very difficult issues and certain things. the interest of russia and the interest of turkey do not overlap. they in fact, complete them. yet. one of the aspects of this relationship i think is trust. and president putin has spoken about that a number of times he said that for example,

president or the on is a manual drives, a very hard bargain. he is a tough negotiator. but once an agreement is reach reached, it can be trusted. and this is somewhat antiquated notion, you know, calling somebody and man of the word. but i think it's important for both leaders is a take him positively tricky because i know for many of our friends in the west and delivery circles, that would be seen as a, as something somewhat fat offensive to call somebody ma'am. and to say that his words could be trusted. well, it's sometimes comes on the criticism by door position by delay presence as you put it in touch it too. and, but the liberals have lost much of their prestige in this country. so they have hardly to be trusted by the me and one the other hand, yes, there is a relationship on the basis of leader to leader. but this is, it is important,

but it may be, it may seem to be quite fragile to the outside. but what i'm here arguing for is that what basically has brought touch and rush on to the truck is there is they interest professor, you know, is that interest, national interests or target understood in the same way by the opposition. we all know about the upcoming elections in turkey. do you expect any sort of continuity of foreign policy, including on the issue of russia, if the opposition comes to power? well, i think our position leader was on record. one's saying that turkish retained ukraine fight in the war. but you see, when you basically get to this government, when you come to power,

then it would be a different capital of things. it could be a different kettle of fish. i mean, what do you mean by taking ukraine site, for instance? does that mean you are going to turn against russia? or does that mean? you know, you may be just empty platitude. you would be just saying in one international conference in, in one international meeting in nato, or what have you, or, or is this, the most important question would be, are you going to apply all this functions to russia? if you do, then you are going to be that need, you are going to be very, very, in a very difficult situation. i mean, we have experienced that with the rock with the united states in the crisis in the united states. the pushes you into something,

and then you expect that you would be basically burst by the united states and by the collective west for your losses. and then nothing comes along. there's one factor i think that needs to be kept in mind the, the overall landscape geopolitical landscape of the region is changing, as i'm sure you're heard about the chinese brokerage deal between the uranium and the saudis. and many experts i have spoken to they have great hopes for not only the syrian resolution, successful theory and resolution, but also the, the solving of the palestinian problem. and you know, the successful conflict resolution in many forms. but there one big question there . if that happens, of those positive trans continue, what it would essentially mean is not only the and of the years dominant, but effectively the lack of the us interference in the region. do you think that

americans will allow that to happen, or do you think they may use various events including elections in certain countries to continue stirring the pot? them continue with the divide and conquer policy? well, i think what matters here is the feelings of the people as find the turkish people are concerned. if you ask, i mean all the polls show that there is enormous degree of grievances against the united states. and it is not only in turkish american relations, for instance, you ask people who is at home for instance, who is in the wrong, who is in the right in the ukraine crisis. they would say it must be the americans . i case it comes automatically. so that is why the opposition leader basically after that statement once and then stop back because you can't go against the people's wishes. so in that sense, and i'm, i'm, i'm,

i'm quite firm in my, in my argument and that is so called russian turkey structure. really relations will remain on this truck and whether or not your position is going to win the elections remains to be seen. now, can i ask you one last question? he rode that in this new multiple world middle powers like turkey will have a special place. and you also suggested that if the european union doesn't survive our european neighbors like france, germany, italy are, have great britain. those countries that used to be great european powers will also have to come up with some sort of self interested. foreign policy isn't up to optimistic. do you think they still have a capacity of conceptualizing self interested policy,

let alone executing it while they the new multiple order it is going to be very interesting to watch a be april live long. and it's going to be really, really interesting to follow. one is that it is this multiple parity is not going to be western center because there is china, there is draw shot. and there are also powers like super powers or potentially powers like india regime and others. so we're the western dominated multiple or, or you know, bipolar or unipolar world or did is coming to an end. and the 2nd thing is, for the 1st time, you know, multiple and well daughter that are going to be countries like middle powers, like turkey, iran, and quite a number of others. as you mention, perhaps european powers, even if you're repeating union,

basically there survives all the pressures of the multiple world daughter. it is not going to be very closely integrated, union will know that and quite a number of european great powers of the 1900 century early 20th century ident, to remain middle powers. we didn't that system so the americans will do everything to stop that. but as we have seen over the last 12 months or more with the ukraine war, damn, not all mighty, they can stop it. and this is a, i think this is going to roll on along the was lights are, you know, i have to stop in here. thank you very much for that. it's been a fascinating conversation. thank you. it was my pleasure and thank you for watching hope to see her again on worlds apart. ah,

with me ah, ah, i can't imagine a situation in which could be many being may you talk auto cross station or out of some anger or out of some good themselves or automate dispute with one or 2 nato members. we have learned how to deal with them. why not? so if they are basically to do something nasty to us, we can do something more hosted with

ah, the main suspect in the terror attack that took the life of a prominent russian journalist awaits her 1st for hearing. and also following an explosion and st. petersburg, a warning you may find the following, but it's distressing. a newly released, but it shows the immediate aftermath of the detonation. as survivors of the attack are seen running away from the theme covered in blood and collaborating with ices for profit, french intelligence services are accused of funding terrorists to enable a firm to continue operations in the country. that's according to the company's former c e o.