and the usaa probably has an idea of what's going on, but is probably giving them some kind of license to kill the u. s. should have known better after the reactive case. it should have kept closer tabs on the the s b u clinton intelligence. and either it was incompetent and darrow elected and did not keep closer tabs or it has a fair idea of what's going on. and i suspect the latter. and that's her up on the hour and coming up, don curiosity speaks with an award winning whistleblower who disclosed information on illegal fire arms destined for destruction, which were being sold by police officials to criminal syndicates. watch next on the whistle blowers stake lumps. mm ah, blowing the whistle on waste fraud, abuse, illegality, or threats to the public health or public safety frequently carries with at the

risk of personal danger. whistleblowers are subject to retaliation. they lose their jobs and sometimes their friends and colleagues walk away from them. in some cases though, the whistleblowers life is in danger from the very people against whom that whistle blower has reported to the will tell you about one whistle blower whose life is literally in danger because of her brave revelations. i'm john kerry. aku welcome to the whistle blowers ah. 2 2 2 2 2 patricia michel, a was a senior administrative clerk working in the police firearms department in the free state province of south africa. in 2018, she made a protected disclosure to her commanding officer that illegal firearms destined for destruction were being sold by police officials to criminal syndicates. nothing came of her complaint. so she reported it to the former national police

commissioner, general kayla italy in 2020, so totally referred the case to the head of the priority crimes division in the free state who appointed a task force to investigate. soon afterwards, michelle, i found out that her identity as the whistleblower had been compromised. the investigation was immediately halted. according to my chalet, it has never been revived. in january 2021, michelin blew the whistle again. this time she made a protected disclosure to settled of alleged corruption and abuse of power by senior police officials in the free state. the information she sent to said totally included allegations of irregular appointments and promotions and of the misuse of state resources. rather than being acted on michelle, his expectation of confidentiality was breached again, and her complaint found its way back to the very same provincial managers. she had blown the whistle on the officers. michelle had implicated, then embarked on a terrifying campaign of retaliation against her. one of the police generals she

had implicated, opened a harassment case against my chalet and obtained a protective order. police officials investigating the harassment case then seized michelle his phone while she was at work using what she says was a fake warrant. patricia, my chalets phone is still in the possession of the south african police service. and if that wasn't enough, michelle, i found herself under physical surveillance by police officers using unmarked cars . the car michel a uses to collect her younger son from boarding school was followed all the way back to her house in november, 2021. michelle, his digital communications also appear to be under surveillance. her bank has worn her about the disclosure of her personal data. in january 2022, michelle, i was charged with misconduct for bringing the police into disrepute after publicly calling for the removal of the free state police management. after 15 years of service, michelle, it was dismissed after she refused to attend to misconduct,

hearing chaired by one of the police officials that she had implicated in her initial complaint. shortly afterwards, one of her former police colleagues warned her that there were plans to have her arrested and thrown in jail without being registered on the prison system and killed. now patricia michelle, he lives in hiding in different locations, fearing for her life. a police threat assessment confirmed her life was indeed at risk. she says in june 2022 shots were fired at her brother in an attempt to kill him after he refused to disclose her whereabouts to members of the free state police management. according to an essay b, c interview aired in september 2022. living and hiding has taken its toll and michelle is family and their relationships. she has a 9 year old son who she can see only occasionally. now, shortly after the interview was aired, michelle, a received information that the police general with a protective order against her, had given an instruction that she should be arrested. days later,

a large contingent of police arrived at her house and harassed her and her family members. this happened even though she had a prior arrangement with the investigating officer to meet him with her lawyer in his office to be charged. that was subsequently done. threats to her life continue . most recently, in november, 2022, her son in law was driving her to a safe house. when she noticed they were being tailed by a black ford ranger pickup truck without vehicle registration plates. she was convinced the occupants were assassins who had been sent to kill her. a high speed car chase ensued. michelle, a son in law, eventually shook off their pursuers in a warren of township streets. she regards these actions as part of an ongoing pattern of retaliation. for her whistle blowing, patricia michelle a welcome to the show. we are very happy to have you. thanks for joining us at. thank you so much, john at that. thank you so so nicely with me on your show all the the pleasure is

ours. patricia, i want to point out from the outset that your story is a heartbreaking one. it's one where literally every thing that a whistleblower might fear has happened to you has happened to you. your life is in danger, your family has been threatened and for your own safety, we don't even know what country you're in as we speak with you. tell us how this whole thing got started and how did it get so bad, so quickly? and definitely john, as is his life, my live is a loving horner on a daily basis. i. i report that, like you said, a report that, that, that them from 28 in the 1st time when i report the disabled and lawful smuggling of states. allen frye, i'm from the provincial storage facility in m and a leg and they do as they do as they and my identity was then also compromised by then in the case was neva pursued. and then in 2021 i reported dev

corruption of the provincial saps means with him freestate who the form of a nation of commissioner in there. okay. clancy, doyle, im see totally a man made up a protected club with disclosure to you. i before i made a disclosure, we had a conversation on the phone and he advised me to say, you know what makeup pictures of disclosure, put it in writing. and emily explained to me, i did exactly that. a few days later, i was informed by a colleague that at beverly bought it, and he's way back to the, for the state management in they, at a very people did a implicated in there in, in that ab protected disclosure, invades where even things that, that are from from their time on very tele mace of retaliation that, that, that gives me an ad that this is wally and patricia. you did everything

exactly the way in which it was supposed to be done. you made a protected whistleblower disclosure for your chain of command. at what point do you think the system was corrupted? who exposed you and do you think that that was the plan all along? i there person who exposed me. that was the formulation of commissioner. and i believe that was the plan or later on because it had time i didn't even know did of they did their former national commissioner was packed across the quarter barrel. and they, they, they put that i only fated offended out in a marginally does they, did you actually lead to the corruption that i reported? unbelievable. you made several different whistleblower disclosures. did the system ever work for you the way it was supposed to work? the system never worked for me. the system never, i wind every way. i knock on it. if every door did

a good thing or lackley or when i contacted the south african human rights commission, the former i am a chief of the human rights commission. i took, i'd city so typically any, immediately is says that me e or investigate that may issue and immediately say if to frank me is a, is a whistle umbrella. and i taught a bid were a, by me, you mean a tea bag. nice. now i'm not in ab, i forgot to bring emmy's contract was there after he's going to wrapped, was terminated. he's going to let me say he's going back and that, and they refuse to, to, to, to, to extend these contract by the i believe it was because i ye, erica. if me did as a whistleblower status, as soon as you went up the chain of command,

it seems that things went bad. but when did they go from bad to dangerous? what was the 1st thing that you noticed and how did it go downhill from there? it when from bad to dangerous, that they are there though they are, they police officer came to my office to seize my phone after that is then when i realized that i'm being sane, sought, i realize they had a civilian dangers of aliens on me in air and at the dave may my, my children's car was foiled from the boarding school. apt to blue printing. i realize that now this, this, this is not fanny anymore. there's that this situation is now dangerous. and then in february, after i went to the police station to open a case against the defenseless management, i received the information from a former colleague to tell me that you got the information from our app, but the person the know edit alteration of i. so letty did, they explain,

stayed at their desk at the general, did a implicated in this product as disclosure was going to open a criminal case against me, whereby i was going to be arrested insane to and own am or exit out of that. so let's see what i'll be in the day, just that one. this thing in i would, it does vanish into the system without any one knowingly i was. and then when i immediately went into hiding what days they, after they general indeed went to the police station and open a case against me. tell us a little bit about the, the press reaction, the media reaction. it seems to me that your whistle blowing was crystal clear. certainly the media and the south african public, half to be appreciative of what it was that you were bringing to light. or have the police been successful in keeping this out of the press?

you know, as john day was not matching media exposure or no, i exposed that information in the, in the public i course media exposure that day after that that, that, that, that, that the 2nd, the tim on my life we made it a rack was following us and after the day i decided did am going to pen an open letter to the president of the county in am going to put everything out. did it show anything happens to me that you should be held responsible for my dad because i've knocked on his office door at a last resort in i never got any response. i did call the response from his p. a will referred me back to the policeman as the one i also implicated in the correction. so i've, i've, i've written numerous emails to his office is p, a kept on repairing me bit. and they said they,

i decided i'm going to be enough openly to, to you to get attention in a, from big day on them day. so when i started to get me at the age and what about the people in the legal profession? this seems like a natural case around which lawyers would want to rally just for the sake of protecting the rule of law. have you had much in the way of support from, from attorneys around south africa? no. oh, i know i haven't had my air and assistance from attorneys that only had to as says the lead i. what is for my was all groups. i whistleblower groups in a some of the attorneys who are gave me some advise bad is ab attended kings to me and say, you know what? i'm going to represent you in there's an ailing wow. safe desert office.

well, we know that you have been honored recently with a whistle blowing prize from the australian and geo blueprint for free speech blueprint as one of the one of the 1st even today to reached out to day to day day . but d m. and recently elated deputy president of the in see, was proper i to reach out going to become the next day. but the president a group in assist baffled me. of course, about this, even with we will van in the european union, the kremlin media machine, the state on russia today and spoke ortiz spoke mckibbin, our video agency, roughly all band on youtube. and pinterest tele to push. that is, if, if it was with

a means to reach pertain. so no, we must say loaders. soft power american to a final goal. these seem revolutions to ensure that there are no in the. 2 ah, welcome back to the whistle blowers and john kerry our group. we're speaking with south african police whistleblower patricia, my shirley. patricia, it's good to have you with us. what can you tell us about the response we're talking about this just before the break. oh, what can you tell us about the apartment you've encountered nothing but from and terence, for example. and he had to make a, represent a representation to them regarding my situation. and they are well

aware that there was a delay. the salesman dan on may live in it was rejected by the steps management in a day the chairperson or the portfolio committee rejected it as they spent based on the fact that she was told by the south african management a that threat assessment was not in the correct format i did at risk assessment to live with that, dan dare dare the doug graham intelligence officer who did the risk assessment informed that at that rate, the salesman informed, did it them, did. the doing at risk assessment is going to to, to read them, may live more because at risk assessment is that in the assessment whereby they massey no my where abouts they mass no, my family's layer about, they must know everything about that. and they told him that since i'm already in

hiding in sunday out, they have been already attempts on my left. he can nor do ask a salesman. and that the statement was dan on day, barely waste because they wanted that the latest reason why the papers is ms. was that matter to them that they change and they know they don't want to read the papers estimate anymore. the now one dennis christmas. but there's just no good news in this experience. it everything that a whistleblower would hope would not happen, has happened to you lately you've been placed in personal danger because of your whistle blowing. even your life and the lives of your family members have been placed in danger. how are you dealing with that? obviously, you can't live under these conditions over the long term. what are you hoping for here? you know, at a john is very, very difficult to laugh like this. yeah. at being a whistleblower in south,

if that is late signing at bed saying this, i'm sure you've had you read the stories you've had it almost all i know was the bill was a came out publicly to blow the whistle is be chilled in at that reason i believe i am still alive is because i refuse to get add to add to bug it brought takes him from the state to be put in was so in, in, in am i stay protection because they, it is the moment if you are going to a to little last little and i also as we a her be thought it was a blow up rotation in south africa is lag you handing your life over to them or nestled up really nice. and i believe that even when spell and i is because i refused to be put in the whistleblower protection because a bury people who are supposed to protect you is that people who ad exploring simba

foot on the chinks in. i and i noted for a fake, i've ever been to, to a taste equity patricia. after i blew the whistle on the cia torture program, i was arrested and charged under the espionage act. and i ended up spending 23 months in prison here in the united states. but my whistle blowing was accompanied by great support widespread support in the legal community and among international whistleblower organizations. even many in the media rallied to my side. tell us a little bit about your support. ah, and where it's coming from. i, i don't. i don't want to believe like, my brain doesn't want to process that. everybody has walked away from you. have you received any amount of support? anywhere else in south africa society. yes, that supported i received in this essay d e's in the form of my a was a bill was a board groups in ro support groups at the add their state tape show was

a bill was they add the as sam psychologist the as social workers like john black a day and human rights. it, it was like married a has in a yeah. that there are a few people would really, really support that me through does if will not for them i don't know and even for laugh i, i received some friends from black, a support grands to pay for my accommodation for frank lane, defenders also i received for some friends from them to play, val now commendation badge. you know, most of these fans are only a ones or so most of the time i am penniless. i am as i, i don't even know and most of the times away is the next mentoring. going to come from back back the is a so apt to so far? i would a hell of all the i there was a blow was i managed to to,

to keep to keep it together. well, you raise a very important point there. this is something that i've, i've read about and people have told me about for, for years that it's a consistent theme through modern history for whistleblowers. that once they make their disclosures, they never make a financial come back. this is, this is a big problem with whistle blowing because, you know, without whistleblowers who's going to watch government, for example, who's going to hold people accountable for their actions. i'm curious as to whether or not you've had any support from former colleagues from the family members from friends as anybody reached out to, to help you get through this experience. yes, i have a is a, a from, from, from a former colleagues. he is a leg that moral support the family,

moral support that graham intelligence officer were at bay for physical, physical protection in support. i don't know. you as actually charged the pad mentally for, for, for, for pro take didn't mean in terms of these are a fountains ah, by d, just kept on telling them, did until you dismissed me. i'm not going to go on a pro tip dinner because this bad of my job, us charge depend mentally because he even refused to, to change the content of the, of the an at the, at greater salesman on day interaction in, you was found not guilty in that the rail so he is a ye stay a for me on a daily basis. if i have to go to a sam we like next tuesday, am as go to court for their asthma charges against me. you will be there with me

all the way, making sure that there is no rate here at around me in yeah, things like that. i know that it feels like you have the weight of the entire south african government falling on your head right now. certainly that's how i felt when i was arrested. but tell us about your family about your children and your brother . how are your family members taking all of this pressure? you know, and john is very, very difficult, especially for my youngest son. he is now 11 years old. remember last year i went in hiding february 22 in deep into 2. and he had to manage that entire year without me. while he was so used to me, i used to do everything for him. i'll be more do his own, would you? i mean ease, ease, easier. it would easily was danny's or did a time in my my, my, my made my daughters my,

my daughter and my other daughter is university. she might manage on her own. my san, my admin, my family, let me say this, there's a, our saga actually destroyed my family because there is no family life or my children's rides is being is being infringed because in terms of the children's aid, my children also have the basic rights of being a tad bit by the parents. my child may tell them as now grow up without a mad. and we don't know for how long is this going to keep on in terms of their gender but his violence. i believe that a government is committed mad meeting, a huge agenda, but his violence against me is a woman. i mean, am a woman in the government is not a protecting me. instead the government at the ones who are

a tele dickinson. so he is a my, my, my family is destroyed because no family will survive through something. you're absolutely right. patricia mashaila, you are a role model. thank you so much for joining us. we wish you the very best of luck to cities. the great greek historian said, the bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet, notwithstanding, go out and need it. that is what patricia michelle did. we need more whistleblowers like her. i'd like to thank our guest, patricia michelle for joining us. and thanks to our viewers for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers, i'm john kerry. aku, we'll see you next time. a a

. oh, well, never be a victory for russia. wait solution with my truly not done, but you look at a meal. crane war is a proxy war. this is a war between russia and the united states. naz on, on, made it comes to not should get done in carbon dioxide. america forces are and you're not in europe to gauge in conflict of russian forces. the american forces are here to defend nato ally for that bridge that nato escalates even more than the special military operation become a war when you put them up. so that was the show and that doesn't is my store. i see it that i see you at the us. thank you. costliest. go to me live. so you sleep, you should week and you stuff with in

your sewage there. i see the girl who's some of called the conflict in ukraine, a war of attrition, others claim russia is pursuing its own strategy on its own time table. however, there is ample evidence the camp regime is losing and badly. and this is why this stage of the conflict is so dangerous. a dozens are injured in hundreds, arrested after israeli security forces rated jerusalem off some off the attacking palestinian worshippers, who came to pray during the holy month of ramadan. also

a oh no bite intel core questions about the politically divisive nature of trumps. indictment. that says the former us president decries the charges against him as unlawful.