fill in the possession of the south african police service. and if that wasn't enough, michelle a found herself under physical surveillance by police officers using unmarked cars . the car michel a uses to collect her younger son from boarding school was followed all the way back to her house in november, 2021. michelle, his digital communications, also appear to be under surveillance. her bank has warned her about the disclosure of her personal data. in january 2022, my chalet was charged with misconduct for bringing the police into disrepute after publicly calling for the removal of the free state police management. after 15 years of service, michelle was dismissed after she refused to attend to misconduct hearing chaired by one of the police officials that she had implicated in her initial complaint. shortly afterwards, one of her former police colleagues warned her that there were plans to have her arrested and thrown in jail without being registered on the prison system and killed. now patricia michelle, he lives in hiding in different locations,

fearing for her life. a police threat assessment confirmed her life was indeed at risk. she says in june 2022 shots were fired at her brother in an attempt to kill him after he refused to disclose her whereabouts to members of the free state police management. according to an essay b, c interview aired in september 2022. living and hiding has taken its toll and michelle is family and their relationships. she has a 9 year old son who she can see only occasionally. now, shortly after the interview was aired, michelle, a received information that the police general with a protective order against her, had given an instruction that she should be arrested. days later, a large contingent of police arrived at her house and harassed her and her family members. this happened even though she had a prior arrangement with the investigating officer to meet him with her lawyer in his office to be charged. that was subsequently done threats to her life continue.

most recently, in november, 2022, her son in law was driving her to a safe house. when she noticed they were being tailed by a black ford ranger pickup truck without vehicle registration plates. she was convinced the occupants were assassins who had been sent to kill her. a high speed car chase ensued. michelle, a son in law, eventually shook off their pursuers in a warren of township streets. she regards these actions as part of an ongoing pattern of retaliation. for her whistle blowing, patricia michelle a welcome to the show. we are very happy to have you. thanks for joining us at. thank you so much, john at that. thank you so so much for having me on your show all the the pleasure is ours. patricia, i want to point out from the outset that your story is a heartbreaking one. it's one where literally everything that a whistleblower might fear has happened to you has happened to you. your life is in danger, your family has been threatened and for your own safety, we don't even know what country you're in as we speak with you. tell us how this

whole thing got started and how did it get so bad so quickly? i definitely john, as is, is like my live is a loving horner on a daily basis. i. i report that like you said, a report that, that, that them from 28 in the 1st time when i report the disabled and lawful smuggling of states. allen frye, i'm from the provincial storage facility in m and a leg and they, they do as they do as they of my identity was then also compromised by then in the case west neva pursued. and then in 2021 i report the death corruption of the provincial saps means madame freestate, who the former a nation of commissioner in there. okay. clancy, doyle, im see toilet a man made up a protected the globe was disclosure to lu i before i made

a disclosure, we had a conversation on the phone and he advised me to say, you know what makeup pictures of disclosure, put it in writing and emily straight to me, i did exactly that. a few days later, i was informed by a colleague that at beverly port, they find his way back to the, for the state management in they, at a very people did a implicated in their, in that ab protected disclosure. invades where even things that are from, from their time on very tele mace of retaliations that, that against me and add that this is wally. and now patricia, you did everything exactly the way in which it was supposed to be done. you made a protected whistleblower disclosure for your chain of command. at what point do you think the system was corrupted? who exposed you and do you think that that was the plan all along?

i am the person who exposed me that was the formulation of commissioner and i believe it was the plan or later on because it had time i didn't even know did of that. did there for my national commissioner, was packed of the quote around it. a book that i only fated a friend it out in a marsh latest they, they view as the exit. he leaned to the corruption that i reported. unbelievable. you made several different whistleblower disclosures. did the system ever work for you the way it was supposed to work? the system never worked for me. the system never. i wind every where i knock on it every door. did a good thing or lackley or when i contacted them, so they become human rights commission, their former a chief of the human rights commission i took i'd cd. so

t bang any immediately is says that me e or investigate that might you should immediately say if defrag me is a, is a whistleblower in i taught a bed to were by me you mean the bad let now i'm not in ab. i forgot to bring any contract, was there after his contract was terminated. he's going to let me say he's gone back and that and they refuse to, to, to, to, to extend his contract by the i believe it was because i e. l. a gave me did as a whistleblower status. as soon as you went up the chain of command, it seems that things went bad. but when did they go from bad to dangerous? what was the 1st thing that you noticed and how did it go downhill from there? it when from bad to dangerous, that they are there, they don't, they police officer came to my office to seize my phone after that is then when i

realized that i'm being sane, sought, i realize they had a civilian dangers of aliens on me in an on at the day may, may my children's car was foiled from the boarding school up to blue building. i realize that now this, this, this is not fanny anymore. there's that this situation is now dangerous. and then in february, after i went to the police station to open a case against the de freestate management, i received the information from a former colleague to tell me that you got the information from our i, but the person didn't know it of ordering enough. i select the date, the east plain stayed at the deb, but the general did i implicated in this project? as disclosure was going to open a criminal case against me, whereby i was going to be arrested in se, into an own or exit out of the select the when out beaten raises that on this

thing in i would, it does vanished into the system without anyone knowing me, i was, and dad's when i immediately went into hiding wood days there after the general. indeed, when to the police station and open a case against me. tell us a little bit about the, the press reaction, the media reaction. it seems to me that your whistle blowing was crystal clear. certainly the media and the south african public, half to be appreciative of what it was that you were bringing to light. or have the police been successful in keeping this out of the press? you know, as john day was not matching media exposure or i board media exposure the day after that that, that, that, that, that the 2nd, the tim from my life we made it a rack was following as an after did they, i decided did am going to pen

a open letter to the president of the county in am going to put everything out. did it show anything happens to me that you should be held responsible for my dad because i've knocked on his office door as a last resort in i never got any response. i did go. the response from his p a will referred me back to the policeman as the one i also implicated in the corruption. so i've, i've, i've read them numerous emails to his office, he's p, a kept on repairing me bit. and they said they, i decided i'm going to appear now opened, made it to him to get attention in a from big day on them day. so when i started to get media page, and what about the people in the legal profession, this seems like a natural case around which lawyers would want to rally just for the sake of protecting the rule of law. have you had much in the way of support from,

from attorneys around south africa? no. oh, i know. i haven't had my jw a and i says bins from attorneys that only had to as says the lead i. what is for my whistle groups? a whistleblower groups in as some of the attendees who are gave me some advise bad is ab, i attended kings to me and say, you know what? i'm going to represent you in this an ailing. wow. safe desert of us? well, we know that you have been honored recently with a whistle blowing prize from the australian and geo blueprint for free speech blueprint as one of the one of the 1st one of the biggest, one of the most important whistleblowers, internationally up anywhere has that helped you in any way, has it helped to get your story out there for the, for the general public to,

to read and to appreciate. yes, definitely. it definitely helped me assisted me to get my story out there bad. and it didn't, as says me would at government who as opposed to protect me, i haven't received anything any call many patients. i even did i to reached out to day to day babe. but d. m and reason be late that they but the president of the agency was property going to become the next day president. i that i to reach out to him and i didn't get much assistance from we're speaking with south african police whistleblower patricia my chalet about her odyssey. as a whistleblower. we have a lot more questions for her, so stay tuned. we'll be back after this short break. lou

lisa hunter, russians state total narrative. i've stayed on the most landscape div us. mm hm. and i'm not getting all sunset for a week within the 55 when. okay, so mine is 2000 speedy. one else about this, even with we will van in the european union, the kremlin media machine, the state on russia today and split ortiz spoke mckibbin, our video agency, roughly all band on youtube and pinterest. and we put the question, did you think it was the channels with

some nations may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities. in other countries, the united states of america is different wherever people long to be free. they will find a friend in the united states, ah, with other human beings. it'll be a bit of weight about 80 balls. anybody phase eat? sincerely, city drug, dealer cousins. they incentives and we disagree. color revolutions is one among several means to reach the goal of conquering foreign lands and bringing them onto the help of u. s. weston economic interests. people in sadie, i didn't that he did what i go valley did them. okay. yeah, yeah. you tuning correctly. so no,

we must say loader softball m a cat. the final goal of these thing revolutions is to ensure that there are no independent players in the world anymore. ah, welcome back to the whistle blowers, i'm john kerry. aku, we're speaking with south african police whistleblower patricia my chalet. patricia, it's good to have you with us. what can you tell us about the response we were talking about this just before the break. what can you tell us about the response to your whistle blowing from the central government? you've encountered nothing but trouble in free state. but what about in the capital? have you received any support to any, any parliamentarians, for example, anybody in the capital who has rallied tier side now noted, or instead am receiving a lot of resistance. i've recently made a request to the police portfolio committee of parliament to make

a presentation to them regarding my situation. and they are well aware that there was a greater salesman than on my life. it was rejected by the steps management. in a day that chairperson or the portfolio committee rejected it as they spent, based on the fact that she was told by the south african management a that great assessment was not in the correct format at the address essential salesman to live with dan there the doug graham intelligence officer, who did the risk assessment informed the that the salesman informed did that them did the doing at risk assessment is going to to do it in my life more because at risk assessment is that in the assessment whereby they massey no my where abouts

they mass, no, my family's layer about they mass know everything about that. and they told him that since i'm already in hiding in sunday out the been already attempts on my left . he can nor do ask a salesman and that the salesman was dan on. they are the waste because they wanted that the salesman winds that the salesman was that matter to them they, they change and they know they don't want to read the system anymore. the now one that is christmas, but there's just no good news in this experience. it everything that a whistleblower would hope would not happen, has happened to you lately you've been placed in personal danger because of your whistle blowing. even your life and the lives of your family members have been placed in danger. how are you dealing with that? obviously, you can't live under these conditions over the long term. what are you hoping for here? you know, at a join is very, very difficult to left like this. yeah,

at being a whistleblower in south isn't that is late signing at bed saying this. i'm sure you've, you read the story, she overheard it almost all i know was the bill was a came out publicly to blow the whistle is be killed in at that reason i believe i am still alive is because i refuse to get add to add to book a protection from the state to be put in was so in, in am a state protection because they, it is the moment if you are going to have to literally lost the value in ours is be a, her be thought it was a blow up rotation in south africa is like you handing your life over to them or nestled up really nice. and i believe that even when spell and alive is because i

refuse to be put in the whistleblower protection because a baby people will as opposed to protect you, is that people who adage, sponsible foot on a chilling. and i and i noted for a fake, i have evidence to, to a tasty patricia. after i blew the whistle on the cia torture program, i was arrested and charged under the espionage act. and i ended up spending 23 months in prison here in the united states. but my whistle blowing was accompanied by great support widespread support in the legal community and among international whistleblower organizations. even many in the media rallied to my side. tell us a little bit about your support. ah, and where it's coming from. i, i don't. i don't want to believe like, my brain doesn't want to process that. everybody has walked away from you. have you received any amount of support? anywhere else in south africa society. yes,

that supported i received in this essay d e's in the form of my a was a bill was a board groups in really support groups at the ad there said tape show was so bill was they add the as sam psychologist the as social workers like john black a day and human rights. it could it be as like, married a has in a yeah. that be a few people would really, really support that me through death if will not for them. i don't know in even for laugh. i aly sleep, some friends from black, a support grands to pay for my accommodation at franklin defenders. also i received for some friends from them to play. val now commendation badge. you know, most of these fans are only a ones or so most of the time i am bailey list. i am as i, i don't even know. and most of the times away is the next mentoring. going to come

from back back the is i so apt to so far? i would a hell of order either was obama was i am i managed to, to, to keep, to keep it together? well, you raise a very important point there. this is something that i've, i've read about and people have told me about for, for years that it's a consistent theme through modern history for whistleblowers. that once they make their disclosures, they never make a financial come back. this is, this is a big problem with whistle blowing because, you know, without whistleblowers who's going to watch government, for example, who's going to hold people accountable for their actions. i'm curious as to whether or not you've had any support from former colleagues from the family members from friends as anybody reached out to, to help you get through this experience. yes, i have, i have a, a from,

from, from a former colleagues. he is a leg that moral support the family, moral support that graham intelligence officer were at bayville, physical, physical protection in support. i don't know. you as actually charged the pad mentally for, for, for, for protecting me in terms of these are a fountains ah, by de, just kept on telling them that until you dismissed me. i'm not going to go on a pro tip dinner because this bad of my job, us charge the pad mentally because he even refused to, to change the content of dell of death a at the ad threat assessment on day interaction in u. s. found not guilty in that the rail so he is a ye stay a for me on a daily basis. if i have to go to

a sam we like next tuesday am as go to court for her asthma charges against me. you will be there with me all the way, making sure that there is no rate here at around me in yeah, things like that. i know that it feels like you have the weight of the entire south african government falling on your head right now. certainly that's how i felt when i was arrested. but tell us about your family about your children and your brother . how are your family members taking all of this pressure? you know, as john is very, very difficult, especially for my youngest son, he is now 11 years old. i mean, by last year i went in hiding february, doing d to indeed been to to and he had to manage that entire year without me while he was so used to me. i used to do everything for him. i'll be more do his

own work. yeah. i mean, east, east usually it would easily western years old at a time in my, my, my, my made my daughters, my, my daughter a my, i did all the easy diversity she manage on her own, my san, my ad. mean, my family, let me say this, there's a, our saga actually destroyed my family because there is no family life or my children's rides is being is being infringed. the course in terms of the children's and my children also have the basic rights of being a tad bit by the parents. my child, my children as now grow up without a mad. and we don't know for how long is this going to keep on in terms of their gender based violence. i believe that a government is committed, much emitting a humans part, alexander lucas agatha talks in moscow. so let's listen. it actually should have

some lines. once again in the late you, he's in the middle on the day of the unity between the proposal and raj and belarus . we celebrated it on april. the 2nd i have to say that a lot has been done with the result. the fall in the join our for it's in all areas and to morrow we will speak about it. and so too much of the my decision i lean in our 1st solution and cooperation of on the international listen to mission, hurry in the and the mattress regarding security of our states for your. and it is especially glad name to mention the unless the through the power were in economy. according to our statistics, the trade with new over the here has grown. well, maybe not the bad mind. if we compare it with the results, we have some other countries by 12 percent. that gravity is 1000000 by 45 bill in

is an impressive amount and according so you're a stat and told me to speak if we added services. that's a serious result of our joint efforts or joint work. and a lot of father matters regarding the use of a building. thank you for coming on the 8th of the meeting. it will allow us to calmly talk about things that will help to resolve tomorrow and discuss tomorrow, i should say, mentioned at the official meeting with our colleague. so welcome commercial smoke. still following up on what you have said that we have to work for the salaries received in the book. i think some, 2 years ago we decided bad them within the framework or building the unit said, still a lot has to be done. and you remember back then we outlined to about 28 unit programs

where there were 28 in programs, put him and those hides that we just couldn't have conquered back van as your suggestion here. you said so if we can not do this, let's not, we did it. what was that in one place? let's do what we can and we have defined 20 new programs, almost 80 percent of them have been carried out mostly by the governments and our regular meetings. journalism they ask about a lot of money and the reason was not to miss. we just had any problems with the implementation of this progress. there is going to be an event where i will be summing up things. so not so much discussing a sheet of force. there is still a certain issues because we are developing and we have someone throwing in. they say she is from outside. i was watching your train to tula was the right thing to do enough. and more of her is our now asking us to work on the inputs substitution

. and you said the right thing. you gave an example of a farming. everyone was saying that we would have phase famine and what happens. so we have so much rad that we have nowhere to put in the system. and the same will happen to the industry. we will overcome everything. and those who hope look on more said jas. it or him for to cast said that we will crumble that we will collapse. we didn't. yes it was not easy but.