now in talk with ah, ah ah, with me don't welcome to wells apart, one unforeseen, he had vividly manifested, consequence of big conflict. the india plan is the rediscovery of national interest

among the countries that are not directly involved in this war. squeezed between the rock of western sanctions, pressure and the hard place of that own economic and security realities, many nations have been forced to make careful. we'd calibrate the choices instead of following somebody else's leave. how is this newly discovered geopolitical maturity reshaping be entire international system? well, to discuss it, i'm now joined by a foreign and i was just bulk professor at the school politics international relations at quite a zombie university in pakistan. dr. jasper, always great to talk to thank you very much for your time. thank you. now, in one of your interviews, he talked about how pakistan needed to break with this psychological dynamic of codependence. and you were discussing both be the case in ukraine and your broader relationship with the west. this tendency of always having to take florence. and i found this very interesting because i think this is

a very accurate description of what's going on in the world today. and not only with pakistan, but many other countries when they have to truly focus on what's in their interest and it's no longer rhetorical point. it's actually necessitated by life by hard life and hard choices. do you think we would have been at this place in this place if it weren't for the conflict in your brain? i thought all responded to got to the notion as i feel center venetian by the side of that is the you thought it into my mission within the state, whether it's the practical on a practical that's the reason there is a whiting. what the americans that started the demographic summit in which they wanted to raise is holding the rules. so it was auto. and this, the daughter was sustaining the american adobe wanted good relation in the united

states. but this thing is similarly, and your boss is very much supportive to the, your gradient vibe of self determination and their right to go by themselves. and in this context was done by mostly believe, but not sports. the ministry of ration in new york. and just in the best on the russian invasion. so in this context of cause it's limited. but on the other side, if you see this, you'll get that i'm, it's such as that cannot ignore it. so you can do that get effort to business. why my relation with democracy. so that's why we have been done. if you read out the date in the united nations general assembly, what he meant day you get regarding dated. we are not boarding directions,

we are not proposing. but as he says done, we upstairs on the resolution because the board, this is not serving the post on place. so we are not here to criticize anyone but the end of the doctor. and jeff, i think this is a very important point because the ability to see the situation in all its complexity rather than in black and white and taking sides is actually a very important marker of psychological maturity. and it is usually the children who give each other either or ultimatums, either you are with us or you're against us. adults tend to be far more sort of sophisticated in how they go about building a relationship. and i wonder why do you think the west or the united states in particular, which sees itself as the only adult and international community,

the only adult who has to decide for everybody else? why do you think they put such a start v c choice before the rest of the world on the issue of russia? now i would understand that they treated russia in such a way. that's fine, but they also put the rest of their world in before the choice of either you or with us born against us. do you think that's a wise choice and do you think that's an adult choice? i think that, you know, either with us or with them is, will i fully understand when we focus on these kind of the things we have to keep in mind during before was the long and i meant what was done. i use it with us of it, but this slow them again ready? gone to question the 911. when they told us either with us or with then it was lucky because you live because the

same shouldn't be annoying in a bunch of stuff. but now we are living in a most people work. it's not a unipolar world in your, your big settings, but she has asserted, is your, is your best setting? janna asserted, i'm asking them to check. yes. yeah. so it has started from book grows summary of the near into thought that you have to do what you call it. it's the i dog dog. yes. the thought of it can really probably, i'm sorry for correcting you. russia didn't cut, capture them because they are not part of russia's territory. their faith that i'm saying when they checked up to the judge. yeah. that grammy and then it is.

yeah, damascus to be independent of some of those. so similarly, it tried to get some kind of a thing in because that's what you call it, i mean, and because that's the dialogue but assertive med welcome to back. all. so is this good thanks. i'm actually not dependent on quad jana or india, dana. so this, you know, even without, with them is all, it's not a mature approach. that's why i'm asking us, what against the speed a few. similarly, our prime accidentally was in moscow. but we did explore the, the action in the u. k. though we were did as a buyer, as a buy, that's what we did, is that up the it was not deploy medically,

correct. and when den bilateral negotiation with the muscle and it done according to the should do. so it all you though with us of it done is all will well, dr. jeff fall, both russia and china to some extent have been pushing against this american pressure and to submit down to one set of rules. beneficial for the american ban. do you think washington could have foreseen this kind of effect on other countries not only on russian china, but for example, in pakistan on indian, south africa, brazil i've been doing many of those countries are involved in very pain speak staking decision making process one. they have to weigh in that own priorities versus be consequences and the costs of not agreeing with the americans. do you think that kind of a fag is in american interest and do you think they were after it? after all, i think that the, these patients that been hurting the american alive as well as the american

states, or if they're not on the same page of us. why is this just the out? that's why i thought and raise ship land bed the pipeline gas pipeline. and we are not solving on this work because of the 3rd party social sanction by by this action cannot be your medic, on my understanding is that with the passive don't die. the sanction said august sanction will be good news in the back. why dad, lose lose been back because you see even know then day what was sanctions? this india started importing battle rush year

wanted as 400 misers. the bottom, the blue ball, the sunbeam, essentially. anyone was getting the movie from right. yeah. automatically under that, come under the same ducky into the dog. i want to do that for the day. that's what i read the sanction. but for the indian, damascus macon amendment, that 3 the trusting this is a lot of you say to look at the right. yeah. the quadrant of the f, 100 meters moved from india. and that there was a note in america me this select that there was a selective sanction and they would be losing all the math sections will be seen

in the affective, due to pursue a. so what i'm hearing you say is that in picking up a battle with russia to punish russia and to make it a bay with the so called western lab, the democratic world. and the westerners and the americans in particular are encouraging and very different that similar sort of behavior actually among other nations, when they not only continue to pursue deals that are in their own self interest. but they also a formal conscious about political choices that they're making. do you think that's ultimately in the interest of the western lab world, and they actually losing it in the exact thing that they're fighting for with russia? this is important because then they're testing kids when they put the sanction on the best company, i mean on the right. yeah. and in probate that you will not,

but just these things from deal at the same time, they are driving them in that i did a dependency on that. the problem with the name of god peace is that that dependent too much on the united states. if you recall, wendy said not this scheme by pled bed and deal, but they actually directly can't ah hi ah

hi, i'm rick sanchez and i'm here to plead with you whatever you do, you do not watch my your show. why watch something that's so different. my little opinions that you won't get anywhere else. welcome to please. if you have the state department, the cia weapons makers, multi $1000000.00 corporations, choose your facts for you. go ahead. i change and whatever you do. don't watch my show, stay mainstreet because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called direct impact, but again, you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change. and dwayne thing, ah

hey, welcome back to worlds of parts with the far and boston just spoke professor at the school of politics and international relations at kite e as i'm a university in pakistan. doctor just called before the break, we discussed this somewhat childish, or you can call it info, info tile, american approach to foreign policy. either you're with us or you're against us and i think there is an alternative. it was there in place even before the recent visit by chinese prison sheet moscow. but i think in the aftermath of this visit, this new paradigm is far better articulated and what russia and china are suggesting, at least when it comes to that by the actual context, but perhaps even more even broader internationally is a relationship that has a much lesser emphasis on exclusivity. in fact, they don't demand that exclusivity at all. they have a more room for understanding each, each of those differences and conflicts,

while still putting a priority on having that relationship as a container for everything else that can be sold within that is that only a trade off the russian chinese relationship or they behave in a similar matter with that partners, including pakistan, a positive impact on the central asia, staves, and it will be going to strengthen this be for decks and flows to be at a project in the best or middle east, or maybe, but as a question, go whatever you call it and certainly it would bring a piece in the neighborhood because in the restroom, the chinese joy and then they had a better position to manage the about astonished. and also our data was not economic could do so definitely if there is a bi lateralism between the chinese,

it will be going to have a positive impact on economy projects, especially with just also renounced by the chinese. now you speak about pakistan. and so what passive fans, russia and china, you know, influencing the events in this neighborhood. but don't you think that the times are also requesting a more active physician, not only from pakistan, but many other regional powers be iran turned k. perhaps even india. i know you have a policy of neutrality, but the policy of neutrality, i suppose, doesn't mean that you have to sit and wait until russia and china figure out everything else. maybe positively try to balance, did not want it to be an exam, but you know that in the international part is, is easier to say that you are

a neutral, but it's different going to be a new drug, especially like what's done, which is a very much look at it graphically, it says legend state and it says p. but in the issue of them, which is a big step with a bigger population nuclear fall having if you went in the region and having a defensive role to play in the global politics. so it's such a clarity is not an onset of both, but tom has adopted a strict bilateral ism, that we can move in on issue issue basis. but we are hitting the decision of product daddy and dictation for the us sometime from the others. but the john is not working on this, but if you see that we like it or not really bad west, there was refused to lot to sped in. this was the god

a winter lamp base was there, but everyone was talking that distance from russia, but started right and still with us yet. now when western lead nations invited us out of america, specialized by on our in our bottom is the listing. the u. s. frequently but to, but in this demo, this is summit, which is basically indirectly against the guy. and that is why j and i. yeah. so, but refused to speak. we expect that we had design, build, maintain a good relations, broad range of the united states, but not as the cost of our friendly state. absolutely, i can kick. can i ask you specifically about that? because i keep hearing from man, if i get sunny thinkers and officials that you want to have a bro. glad a peer relationship with the united states. after having done

a lot of haven't listing for them in again, it's not losing a lot of your soldiers losing, losing a lot of treasure, not getting even the basic gratitude in return them yet. here you are saying again the despite all those the tauriel issue and says from the west, you want to have a pragmatic relationship or good relationship with united states. what is your picture of a good or balanced relationship in the united states? because, i mean, i'm come to the, even to ask whether the united states is capable of having a relationship, a proper relationship back and forth with any other country, rather than. and they're so sophisticated arrangements when they want everything for themselves and giving nothing in return. so what's your view of a good relationship in that country? it's very simple. by good relationship. i mean it's got to be a degree. that's one spectrum to the other spectrum. but sun is not clear that

united states can not be our department because it does show the india and we were begging the united states in order to balance the india individual context now. and that does that assisting sporting the next hour try so just just book is normal. yes. on the economic just bought a book, but generally says one of the biggest part of the u. s. and the bass cuz definitely don't like to lose it. the biggest market in the world in a population, does the projecting pilot, but b, b, that's going to fuel. so we can move in that balance if by lateralism eileen, then we can follow that issue is relationship. so my one issue, let's say i'm asking you to partnership with you that says you're alive, spotless ship, all the tests that you're alive basically then it means that i should not mind it, let them go,

but i can bet you by the american population. so my relationship by be what is practically available, keeping in mind the american bar industry. and we did that, i tried to just myself. so everything which i used to spec. no, i'm no more known where you'll get the most. i liked it. and at the same time, i'm actually also realizing that if they're not giving us and we're not expecting how to behave with us now, or we mentioned the issue of i'm gonna stand where pakistan as i said, did a lot of haven't lifting for the americans and i don't know if you would find this comparison appropriate, but i think something similar is happening in your brain right now when the ukrainians are doing a lot of sacrificing for the sake of the so called western democratic world in deep losing the people losing that treasure losing the developmental prospects

for the sake of a western interest. do you think they will get the gratitude or the support of the west as a, as a whole for do you think it will last for a considerable period of time? because the reason i'm asking, and it's a very general question, because i think the pakistani is hold for the same and deep and got very little in return. i think that there is too much into guess applied to done. and i was saying that you applied, no, it was, was the added drive either to 5 inside one of our base for directions on our own board. so we wanted to montana buffle. so that was the strategy that worked out of both the stop in the i think, even before 979 and america practically in doing the dog

reagan to know support by 2000000000. you can see it package. so it's not the same way and it against the water batteries and yes, they also, you know, with also with them we live independently. also, if you read the americans of the victor, all the american journals, the american analyst, their alleging past due to be even bought on saturdays, we wanted no more, no new to life, but one symptom not trusted by the americans. that means the bucks on waldman dinning, it's independent whenever it requires. so that's why we didn't basically back to speaking if somebody asked me that, do i believe the american between me today? no, that's wrong. i was on my board. i very yes to give you good. if you think that they're fighting for their own independent existence,

then they should be indebted to be but they are putting them. if they're thinking that they're fighting for the defense of the liberal democratic was i think they will be losers. look good, follow the super bobs. this is small, listed as a bond on the just book there. then it does this just calculation if i put in bed, well good. if i'm not afraid, it's not acceptable. so individual was, don't want to be by the policymakers or by the, you can say, from opinion, with all even in your, in the coming years that before for them. and they should give us know if the i've done to be a bother twice. and if i may ask her i, we only have about a minute left, but i think it's

a very important question. i heard you say before that the interest of russia, china pakistan, iran overlap, and i've got us and we all have a stake in that country being stable, more or less. and perhaps even developing economically that would, you know, boost our own inter dependence economic independence. and development, now the americans in the west can no longer provide security to guidance. and i think that's pretty clear. but do you think they could be in the position of providing insecure a tier to ganeth son through their support of various militant groups or otherwise for the specific reason of destabilizing both the region and many of the of the am, is that happen to be in that region, russia and china included. i think that one is done across the wall. there's a lot. ok, you better get groups of you. better said that guy was big on the central asian other militant growth,

who goes just everybody and he's going to be exploited by any state a well, if you just google, see i yeah. it is that that more than 2000. wow. yeah, i mean, i did it, i want to stop, according to publish doses. so the americans know the, uh, what is done. they had a connection do. there is in the drive to back it up on the lead. going to snow on the side, like in this, living the of on the lead, the iris did they ever stayed there? so what, why if the math was completed by the doctor just all we have to live in there. thank you very much for being with us. thank you very much and thank you for watching hope to hear again on well, the part ah ah,

ah luis hunter, russia state will never see a final speaking with ah, we will man in the european union, the kremlin media machine restate on russia today, and ortiz food, mckibben or video agency, roughly all band on youtube and

with a gray vases, use nato weaponry to attack civilian areas and the domestic republic, killing a number of local residence, a gives it in the story, shape the weak,

who in time lie the terra type in his word, which killed prominent russian war journalists, blood, lead for passkey and wounded, at least 40 of the people delegations from saudi arabia arrived in e. m, and for peace. so that in a renewed effort to end the navy decade long conflicts, the victims were women. the elderly and children, the youngest one.